Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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voltaire

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Verse 8 says: if we(see verses 1,2) say that we (see verses 1,2) have no sin, we deceive ourselves(see verses 1,2) , and the truth is not in us(see verses 1,2).
this verse is also hypothetical as was verses 6 and 7. john is correcting the confused believer concerning false gnostic teaching. john is saying that if either he or the gnostics say they have no sin, then they have no truth and therefore walk in darkness and therefore are not in fellowship with God. Verse 8 has to be talking about a persons state prior to being cleansed from all sins otherwise john would be lying in verse 7 about being cleansed from all sins.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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Door said:
Jerry, you have been given every verse in the NT that deal with darkness and light, and ALL of them refer to either being saved (light) or being lost (darkness).
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Yes, and you have been given verses that demonstrate that a Christian can be described as being "blind" in regard to his walk, and common sense dictates that a blind man is not walking in the light but instead in darkness.

You have also been given evidence that a Christian can be in fellowship with the works of darkness. If one is in fellowship with the works of darkness then it is evident that he is having fellowship wiyth darkness.
The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 1:8-9 is actually speaking to believers who are blind to the truth that they HAVE BEEN forgiven of their sins. Christains can be blind to the truth, but you demonic doctrine that makes a leap from being blind of something to walking in darkness is absurd.
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No, what is absurd is not to realize that the term "walk" is referring to the thoughts and actions of man while he is in his natural body upon this earth.

Those of 2 Peter were indeed "blind" in their walk in regard to their sins and so therefore they were not walking in the light.
You are a wicked evil person, and I feel sorry for anyone who knows you and is subject to you false gospel of self-righteousness.
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I have always said that confession is in regard to sanctification and not justification, and you know it.

So therefore when you assert that my ideas are in regard to "self-righteousness" you know better. You are only showing your desperation because you know that you have no answer in regard to the "type" of the high priest. You are a babe in Christ so you cannot understand the types.

You are desperate because by your own words anyone can see that you have lost this debate. You agree with me that the pronouns at 1 John 1:9 are in reference to Christians. You also agree with me that the KJV translation is correct. Put those two together and we get:

If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.

All you are doing now is to attempt to divert attention away from the fact that your own words prove that you have lost this debate.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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voltaire said:
Verse 8 says: if we(see verses 1,2) say that we (see verses 1,2) have no sin, we deceive ourselves(see verses 1,2) , and the truth is not in us(see verses 1,2).
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OK, the "we" in verse 8 is in regard to the Christians who saw and heard the Lord Jesus (verses 1,2).

But then you turn around and say that verse 8 is speaking about unsaved people:
Verse 8 has to be talking about a persons state prior to being cleansed from all sins...
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Your attempt to reconcile what John says with your mistaken ideas has left you confused. You are contradicting yourself.

Andf Door cannot see your contradiction and he praises what you said.

The word "we" in the previous verse is referring to Christians (verses 1,2). And John does not say that the blood "has cleansed" us but instead he says that it is cleansing us--in the present tense, not the past tense. So John is not referring to a cleansing that happens when the sinner is first saved but instead one that happens upon confession:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).​

In His grace,
Jerry
 
Door

Door

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Jerry Shugart said:
Yes, and you have been given verses that demonstrate that a Christian can be described as being "blind" in regard to his walk, and common sense dictates that a blind man is not walking in the light but instead in darkness.
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I can demonstrate that someone who is blind chooses to close his eyes to the truth... Enter Jerry Shugart.
 
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voltaire

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Verse 9 is no different than verses 6,7,8 and 10 in that the we, our and us are the same as those in verses 1,2. it is also no different in that john is speaking hypothetically to confused christians concerning false gnostic doctrine that would make john a person walking in darkness if he believed that way and therefore they should not fellowship with him. BTW, the verses that support the idea that john is writing to confused christians is chapter 2 verses 26 (confused) and 21 (christians).
verse 9 says: if we(see verses 1,2) confess our(see verses 1,2) he( God) is faithful and just to forgive us(see verses 1,2) our (see verses 1,2) sins and to cleanse us(see verses 1,2) from all unrighteousness.
verse 9 is talking about the person who teaches that he has no sin. that person does not have the truth in him( including john). in verse 9 john is saying that if he confesses his sins , he is not like those who teach that they have no sin. in verse 7 john has already stated that he has been cleansed from al
 
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voltaire

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In verse 7 , john has already stated he has already been cleansed from all sin by virtue of walking in the light. now in verse 9 says that if he admits he is a sinner , he will be cleansed of all unrighteousness. since he has already been cleansed in verse 7, john must be talking about the process PRIOR to walking in the light. otherwise john is insane and is saying that he is walking in the light and yet he still needs to be cleansed from sin through confession for sins that have already been cleansed by virtue of walking in the light. if that is what john is saying then somebody should have taken john to the funny farm.
 
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voltaire

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verse 10 is a duplicate of verse of 8 but in addition to john deceiving himself and being devoid of truth, john says he also makes God out to be a liar and Gods Word is not in him if he denies he is a sinner. verse 8 and verse 10 surround verse 9. 8 and 10 are concerning those who deny they are sinners while verse 9 tells of the remedy of those who will admit they are sinners. verse 9 is not about being conscious of sins after they start to walk in the light and asking for forgiveness for sins that they have already been cleansed of by virtue of walking in the light.
 
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voltaire

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there is no going back in forth between walking in darkness and walking in the light chapter 2 verse 19 says its impossible.
they went out from us, but THEY WERE NOT OF US; for if they had been of us; they would have continued in us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
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voltaire

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no jerry, i am not confused or contradictory about verse 8. you are no paying attention. verses 6 through 10 are all hypothetical. john is dealing with gnostic deception among believers. some believers are being told that they should not fellowship with john because he doesnt teach what the gnostics teach. in verse 8, john is posing as a gnostic and says :if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. that is exactly what the believers were being told by the gnostics- that they had no sin. this is johns way of saying that the gnostics were deceived and the truth was not in them. in verse 9 he is talking in the same way. he is saying that if the gnostics were to admit they were sinners they could be cleansed of all unrighteousness. john is not saying these gnostics are saved people who are teaching a false gospel. he clearly shows the gnostics to be unsaved and walking in darkness throughout the rest of his book.
 
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voltaire

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here is what john has to say about the gnostics and it doesnt sound like some christians who are confused and mistakenly teaching a false gospel.: "he who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. but he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes".
john has clearly labeled the gnostics as unsaved in these verses. so when he poses as a gnostic in chapter 1 verses 8 and 9, he is clearly talking about people in an unsaved state.
 
Door

Door

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voltaire said:
here is what john has to say about the gnostics and it doesnt sound like some christians who are confused and mistakenly teaching a false gospel.: "he who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. but he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes".
john has clearly labeled the gnostics as unsaved in these verses. so when he poses as a gnostic in chapter 1 verses 8 and 9, he is clearly talking about people in an unsaved state.
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This is exactly right! When I was sharing chapter one with my wife she pointed out the same thing. John begins to reveal how corrupt those who "went out from us" and denied that "Jesus had come in the flesh" truly are. When someone leads someone else away from the truth, they hate them.

Jerry hates us.
 
Da'Saint

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voltaire said:
here is what john has to say about the gnostics and it doesnt sound like some christians who are confused and mistakenly teaching a false gospel.: "he who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. but he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes".
john has clearly labeled the gnostics as unsaved in these verses. so when he poses as a gnostic in chapter 1 verses 8 and 9, he is clearly talking about people in an unsaved state.
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This is very good stuff! Voltaire, you have really dug into these passages and have unearthed some things that I can't see anyone really being able to argue! I have always believed this way, but through you sharing your research and adding this to what Door has already covered, I don't understand how this topic could be viewed any other way! Very good stuff!! :up:
 
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voltaire

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Thanks Da' Saint, this doctrine of being out of fellowship over unconfessed sin is devasting to honest christians and leads to pride in christians who have a very narrow view of sin. i have experienced despair in my life numerous times because of legalistic doctrines such as this.
 
Lighthouse

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Door said:
If that is what StP thinks (which I doubt), he is wrong!
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Paul said we should rightly divide the word of truth. The problem is that tetelestai doesn't even come close to doing that. He tries to keep it all together, and wonders why he contradicts himself all the time.
 
Nang

Nang

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voltaire said:
Thanks Da' Saint, this doctrine of being out of fellowship over unconfessed sin is devasting to honest christians and leads to pride in christians who have a very narrow view of sin. i have experienced despair in my life numerous times because of legalistic doctrines such as this.
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I agree with this, and think you have approached I John correctly and with care.

However, I still have a question . . .

It would seem that you and Door are saying that Christians should NOT confess sin or go to the Lord in prayer regarding temptations and troubles with sinful flesh at any time. Not because confession is unnecessary for justification, but simply because you think it would be wrong or a faithless act to confess sin.

I am having trouble with that, because a besetting sin requires grace to overcome, and my solution has always been to take any spiritual tension and problems of the flesh to the Lord, asking for help and strength to gain victory.

Am I misunderstanding you?

Nang
 
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