neither one door. Jesus paid for all our sins at the cross. we receive that forgiveness of sins once we have the life of Christ. we do nothing but trust Christ and accept his life freely. once that happens, we are walking in the light and we have been cleansed of all our sins. confessing our sins or admitting we are a sinner is what helps us realize that we need the life of Christ.
Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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Door
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I think the only way that behaviors are overcome is through a revelation of who we are in Christ. As I said in the "habitual sin" thread...
The Holy Spirit renews our minds (disciplines) that we are in the domain of light, and not in the domain of darkness, so that we will have a proper image of who we are, thus taking away the power of sin and death, and making those things that held us in bondage insignificant. The only possible solution to a changed life, is to understand that we have an exchanged life. I do not want to commit adultery because I fear the Law or God. It because I love my family. The love of God has been poured out in my heart, and I see myself and my family for who they really are. Looking to the Law, only makes me act a certain way, but acting is not real. I want to be a real person, not an actor. An actor is a hypocrite. God makes us real, by giving us His Spirit, delivering us from the domain of darkness, and making us new creations in Christ.
The Holy Spirit renews our minds (disciplines) that we are in the domain of light, and not in the domain of darkness, so that we will have a proper image of who we are, thus taking away the power of sin and death, and making those things that held us in bondage insignificant. The only possible solution to a changed life, is to understand that we have an exchanged life. I do not want to commit adultery because I fear the Law or God. It because I love my family. The love of God has been poured out in my heart, and I see myself and my family for who they really are. Looking to the Law, only makes me act a certain way, but acting is not real. I want to be a real person, not an actor. An actor is a hypocrite. God makes us real, by giving us His Spirit, delivering us from the domain of darkness, and making us new creations in Christ.
Nang
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Admitting we are sinners, and confessing our weaknesses, and prayerfully seeking grace from God to overcome, would define walking in the light . . .don't you think?
Nang
Nang
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Seems to me that verse 8 is a warning to unbelieving hypocrites within the churches, passing themselves off as Christians, who do not admit their sinful condition.
Then, it seems verse 9 is a promise to genuine Christians, that Christ's mediation as High Priest on their behalf, is a continuing assurance of forgiveness. I do not think the promise of verse 9 is offered to unbelievers or gnostics, but only to believers who place their trust and faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
I would say your talking with God (praying) about your problems is evidence of your faithfulness and belief in His grace, love, and ability to give you help and victory over your troubles.
Nang
Door
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I agree (of course), but for those who still believe that they are supposed to continue to have their sins cleansed, and the way they interpret verses 7 and 9, I want to know which one they think cleanses them, since (based on their interpretation) both of them say the same thing. Do you see what I'm getting at?
They say we must walk in the light to be cleansed, but they also say we must confess to be cleansed. It's a Catch 22, if you read those verses they way they do. If you are walking in the light you have already been cleansed, because you confessed it. Walking in the light would not cleanse you of anything. They can't have it both ways.
That's why the way you and I have exegeted the verses is the only possible understanding of the text.
Door
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Except that it is impossible for a believer to not walk in the light. And the way Jerry has interpreted the text, he is saying that we are out of fellowship with God and must confess to be forgiven of sin, which is contrary to the once for all sacrifice. I think guilt and self-condemnation is just a form of pride.
Nang
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Agreed.
Jerry interprets the passage wrongly.
It can be, but not necessarily. Paul paints a picture of believers experiencing tension and grief over the condition of the flesh, and Paul clearly gives instruction what to do about it in Romans Chapter 6.
But even the "reckoning" of oneself to have died with Christ, and being alive with Him, takes communication and prayer between the believer and God. I am just worried you are ruling out this communication and discouraging believers from taking advantage of the marvelous access every Christian has to the heavenly throne of grace.
You seem to be saying it is wrong for a Christian to confess sins, and that has me concerned . . .unless I am just misunderstanding your position.
Door
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Just as I think it is pride to think that God accepts us based on works, I also think it is pride that God rejects based on sin. To me, it's the same thing. Either way you would be saying that God accepts or rejects you based on your performance, rather than because of Christ.
Honestly, I do think it is a sin to confess sins for forgiveness, but I have no problem with agreeing with God that apart from Him, we are completely undone, and have no righteousness of our own, and to come boldly with a heart of thankfulness for His grace.
when i talk to God about my shortcomings, i never ask for forgiveness. i think it must be pride because i dont measure up to the way i think i should be. i wonder to myself why i still act a certain way and feel a certain way. let me give you an example. when i first heard that tim russert passed away, i jumped for joy and pumped my fist. i hated russert for lying about what he said and what he knew concerning valerie plame and denying a conversation he had with scooter libby which would have sent libby to prison had bush not pardoned him. i was ashamed that i could rejoice at the death of anyone.
Nang
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There is absolutely no way a Christian can lose their salvation and position in Christ. Being concerned about one's sinfulness, need not be concern about one's salvation. A Christian is assured that they will be sealed and kept unto everlasting life, by the presence of Christ's Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14, II Cor. 1:21, 5:5, Romans 4:21, 8:38-39)
Only if one thinks it necessary to remain justified, would such confession prove sinful. But what about living a sanctified and holy life? Just because our sin and guilt was paid for by Christ on the cross, does not mean that we become sinless when regenerated and converted. Yes, we have been freed from the law of sin, but to walk in the spirit and utilize this freedom, often requires help and grace from God.
Legally, God does not deal with us according to our sins, but we still live in flesh bodies that retain the proclivity to sin, and thus we have a High Priest at the throne of grace, who was tempted in the flesh, just as we continue to be. Let us come boldly to Him to find help and grace in times of need.
That is walking in the light and exercising faith in the Priestly Office of our Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ would not be established as our Priest, if there was no necessity for His intervention and advocacy on our behalf during this lifetime. How can it be sinful to believe we now have access to the Father through Him?
I completely agree with you, here.
Nang
In Mattew Chapter 6, Jesus says...
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
In that Prayer we are asking God to Forgive our sins, and later Jesus says we should Forgive our fellow Man.
Was this Prayer for all people to pray or just a certain group of People?
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
In that Prayer we are asking God to Forgive our sins, and later Jesus says we should Forgive our fellow Man.
Was this Prayer for all people to pray or just a certain group of People?
Thx for asking. Still slowly dying. Her stroke has wiped her memory of the last few months, but left intact basic thinking and older memories. Tables are turned. I now wipe her hands, feed her at the hospital, etc. I am surprised the cancer has not killed her yet. I think we are talking days or weeks at the most.
Apart from Christ, life and death is futile, and what hope does anyone have? In Christ, death, where is your sting and grave where is your victory?
I Cor. 15:51-58
Door
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That's fine, as long as being ashamed does not make you think you are walking in darkness, or out of fellowship with God, ot that you need to confess it to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Door
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Under the Law, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. After the cross, Paul says to forgive as Christ has already forgiven you.
So your theoretical beliefs and interpretations do not match your practice?
This is getting old. Does anyone know who wrote Hebrews (besides Todd Bentley who claims that he was caught up to heaven and Paul said it was himself?!)?
Has anyone solved the Adam having a belly button issue or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin issue from the Middle Ages?
I dont do those things out of compulsion godrulz. nor do i feel God asks me to do it. nor do i think its necessary for forgiveness or continued fellowship or that silly notion of intimacy you have. this issue is more than academic godrulz because many take jerrys stance on 1 John 1:9 seriously and it coupled with equally ridiculous notions such as loss of fellowship and not having the Holy Spirit due to not being filled with the Spirit can bring a christian despair and actually stunt the work of the Spirit in the believer.
Nang
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God designed Adam with a belly button, in order that godrulz would contemplate it.
Such was ordained . . .
Or maybe that was the location of the removal of the rib?
And don't even get into the nipple thing. God gave Adam nipples knowing Eve would need them.
So there!
Nang
dreadknought
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