Did God become flesh?

[Rosenritter]

EDIT: I see Saint John W already posted this one...

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, his utterance. This man declared to Ithiel—to Ithiel and Ucal:

Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man.
I neither learned wisdom Nor have knowledge of the Holy One.
Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.​

- Proverbs 30:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs30:1-6&version=NKJV

That would be the second closest after Isaiah 9:6 but it still doesn't have the word "Father" as a name or a title. And doesn't it specifically mention that we should be careful not to add to His words?

 

[Right Divider]

That would be the second closest after Isaiah 9:6 but it still doesn't have the word "Father" as a name or a title. And doesn't it specifically mention that we should be careful not to add to His words?

Really?

"What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?"

Who has a SON?

 

[JudgeRightly]

That would be the second closest after Isaiah 9:6 but it still doesn't have the word "Father" as a name or a title. And doesn't it specifically mention that we should be careful not to add to His words?

"Son" implies "father."

And you're making an unstated argument from silence, that "because the word 'father' isn't mentioned, therefore... something."

No one here is adding anything.

The only thing we're doing is reading what is plainly written, and understanding what it is saying.

 

[Rosenritter]

"Son" implies "father."

And you're making an unstated argument from silence, that "because the word 'father' isn't mentioned, therefore... something."

No one here is adding anything.

The only thing we're doing is reading what is plainly written, and understanding what it is saying.

There's an implied "Father" with "Son" but it isn't an explicit statement. It's hinted at in the context of a prophecy.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There's an implied "Father" with "Son" but it isn't an explicit statement. It's hinted at in the context of a prophecy.

Moving the goalposts.

You asked:

How about even finding a clear Old Testament reference to "God the Father" or "Father" as a clear title rather than an adjective?

And we provided you with at least 3.

Two or three witnesses establishes a matter.

Also, no one claimed it was explicit, nor did you ask for an "explicit statement."

 

[Rosenritter]

Moving the goalposts.

There are no goalposts here. I'm not sure why you're argumentative.

You asked And we provided you with at least 3.

Correction: John provided two indirect references (inferred) and I provided one more reference that I acknowledge as clear. That's three references total from all of us, not three from "you" against "me" but three from "us" inclusive of "you" and "me."

Two or three witnesses establishes a matter.

My point was that the Old Testament witnesses are few, and either indirect or prophetic. The New Testament witnesses are many, being direct and present tense.

Also, no one claimed it was explicit, nor did you ask for an "explicit statement."

It's what I meant by a clear reference, one that contained the actual words.

 

[keypurr]

opcorn:

God created all through his Son, but that Son was not Jesus, it was the logos that Jesus was anointed with.

Sorry to disagree with all of you, but......

 

[keypurr]

Phhilippians 2:…6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.…


Oooops….

You forgot this verse:
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

[Right Divider]

You forgot this verse:
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

From His birth... not at some later time.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

i) The visible Jesus makes the invisible God known.
ii) We can never fully know God the Father apart from God the Son.
iii) Colossians 2:9
iv) Matthew 11:27

Jesus is the first-born, above all creation.

i) The word “first-born” in Colossians 1:15 does not imply a beginning; Jesus never had a beginning. There was never a time when Jesus was not. Instead, the word speaks of honor and privilege.
ii) John 8:58
iii) Psalm 89:27
iv) Colossians 1:17

Your wrong. Col 1:15 is not about Jesus. Jesus was born many years later. The Word was IN Jesus as HE WAS ANOINTED WITH IT.

 

[keypurr]

From His birth... not at some later time.

Wrong again as the logos was given the power and knowledge to created all, Jesus had to grow in wisdom.

The logos came with the dove.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

[keypurr]

Isaiah 37:16 KJV
(16) O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

If Jesus created the universe, and we are told that the LORD of hosts alone made the heaven and the earth, what does that say about Jesus?

Consider that you do not know who the LORD of hosts, God of Israel is, its not Jesus.

 

[keypurr]

Are you actually asking a question? Because so often these posts are merely posturing. Because Jesus Christ also called himself the Son of God, which is identified as being God, the same God that is also called Creator, which is the same Father that Jesus referenced in heaven. Nothing hard to believe, unless perhaps someone has a mental block that prevents them from believing that God is big enough to occupy both heaven and earth at the same time.

I suspect that you (and Meshak) might have that block.

The son of a plumber is not a plumber.

The son of a King is not the king.

The son of God is not God, he told you that ONLY his Father is the TRUE God, listen to him as he is your Lord. Made so by his God.

 

[meshak]

You and Lazy are in complete disagreement concerning the nature of Jesus. You understand Jesus as a god (or perhaps one of two Gods, one of two Creators) and he seems to attribute Jesus as a mortal man that did not exist until he was conceived and born of Mary.

Nope, we understand Jesus' Father is the only and true God. So Jesus is not God.

You guys claim Jesus is God. So you believe in at least two Gods.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The son of a plumber is not a plumber.

The son of a King is not the king.

The son of God is not God, he told you that ONLY his Father is the TRUE God, listen to him as he is your Lord. Made so by his God.

Uh, no, he said "the Father is the only true God," not "only the Father is the True God."

You are a perverter of scripture

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope, we understand Jesus' Father is the only and true God. So Jesus is not God.

You guys claim Jesus is God. So you believe in at least two Gods.

1. You acknowledge that Jesus created all things. He is thus the Creator, and you cannot say that He who creates all life, worlds and men and angels, is anything less than a god.

2. I do not believe in two Gods, because to believe in Two Gods that would necessarily require the word and concept of "Two." You believe in a Jesus Creator and another God that created a that Creator which is two by necessity. I believe in one God, eternal, an uncreated Creator who created all things.

But why are you saying "You guys" in response to me? I assure you that Rosenritter and Andrew are one (and not two.)

 

[keypurr]

Uh, no, he said "the Father is the only true God," not "only the Father is the True God."

You are a perverter of scripture

Your side stepping will not hide your inability to understand the verse.

 

[meshak]

1. You acknowledge that Jesus created all things. He is thus the Creator, and you cannot say that He who creates all life, worlds and men and angels, is anything less than a god.

Here you go again. Twisting my claim and the verses.

Jesus was given power to create us. And Jesus is first born of all creation. Jesus was created, not God.


It is all there, don't be so lazy to find them out. You will not accept anything we provide.

So don't ask me the same thing over and over.

good day.

 

[meshak]

Your side stepping will not hide your inability to understand the verse.

you are so right.

 

[Rosenritter]

Here yo go again. Twisting my claim and the verses.

Jesus was given power to create us. And Jesus is first born of all creation. Jesus was created, not God.

The "firstborn of every creature" does not mean created and neither does it mean he was literally birthed from each creature. This is made abundantly clear by the context that says that he himself created all things including those in heaven and those things invisible.

Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

What I want to know is how you can say that Jesus created everything (except himself) and say he is anything less than a god.

Jeremiah 10:10-12 KJV
(10) But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
(11) Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
(12) He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Q1: If the gods who have not made the heavens and the earth will be destroyed, how can you say that He who did create the heavens and the earth is not at least a god?

Nehemiah 9:6 KJV
(6) Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job 9:2, 8-9 KJV
(2) I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
(8) Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
(9) Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

Job and Nehemiah both agree that whomever it was that created all these things, he is properly called God. Let's add that to Genesis 1 and the gospel of John chapter 1. That's at least a four-fold witness, not just "a god" but actually God, and not God plus others, but God alone.
Hebrews 1:6 KJV
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Q2: If Jesus is not indeed our Creator God, then why do the angels of heaven worship him? Nehemiah said that the angels of heaven worships God, in his challenge against the devil Jesus affirmed that God only should be worshiped, and the angels in Revelation also tell us also repeat, "worship God." (Revelation 19:10, 22:9).

It is all there, don't be so lazy to find them out. You will not accept anything we provide.

So don't ask me the same thing over and over.

good day.

I only ask because you haven't answered the questions.

Also... who is the "we?" Am I talking with more than one person, or is that a collective team reference to "those who say Jesus is not God?"