Denial of the deity of Jesus
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
I am curious about this "correct" answer. I don't think there is one, and most of the best biblical scholars feel the same way.
The past is past and we can only use the facts, evidence and data that we have taken from it. Only then can we offer our opinions and conjectures, but we should always admit that the truths we arrive at are provisional.
What is "the correct answer" for you and what historical sources are you using for your opinion. I am always in a learning mode and look forward to reading your answer fully.
Thanks in advance!
P.S. People in Jesus's day were largely an oral culture. Some could read, but mostly the biblical stories were passed down without literal texts. Of course, the Jews were from a culture that was literate at the top, but those of us everyday folks had to listen to the priests or the prophets. No newspapers, no media--all of that fashions a person we can barely access today with our "modern notions."
Why specifically is it "from the pit"? You might have said more honestly and succinctly: "I don't agree with you."
It comes across as judgmental and demeaning, which I believe are not Christian qualities at all--at least in my reading of the Bible.
I would like to know what you think of the accepted historical methodology most people in a global culture accept these days.
The best biographers of famous people--from Lincoln to Steve Jobs--use verbal and written material to fashion a portrait as close to "reality" as they can come.
So I am just wondering how you have come to believe that the gospel writers were somehow contemporaries of Jesus?
Since the late 1700s, it is not what researchers using the tools we use have concluded.
But they--and me--might be wrong. I am curious about learning new information and would like some more clarification for your assertion.
If you are going to study the past like an objective historian, you are going to have to acknowledge that Caesar Augustus was declared Son of God, divine and even Savior of the World. We know this because the message was part of everyday life in the Roman Empire: It was carved into the marble facings of temples and buildings and stamped on the coins that everyone used. And we know that Jesus's subsequent followers thought he was God, or the Son of God, or the Son of Man, or Savior, or Messiah--all different categories of faith.
Does this mean Caesar was "really, truly" from God? Historians are prevented from saying that, for they would be letting their personal beliefs affect their accounts.
Likewise with Jesus.
As a Christian I see God revealed in Jesus and not in Caesar, but I was not there and thus take the claim on faith. But at least I can separate "facts" from "faith" !!! I appreciate straight history from biblical scholars. I do not want their conclusions clouded up by dogmatic intentions. But that's just me.
Apple7
New member
Don't keep mindlessly saying this when you clearly don't mean it, pops...
SERIOUSLY? You are severely underqualified to make any statement about the motive of the heart of another. Tend your own garden.
keypurr
Well-known member
Let me say it again for you:
I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ
Learn from it Apple7
I did not have to say many words to say what you said of the 4 gospels showing King, servant, man spirit.
You said it was only opinion, then you continued to give your opinion and I say your opinion is crap.
LA
Sorry. You sounded pretty reactive and angry. I don't like upsetting people. But maybe next time just be direct and tell me that you don't believe (or don't agree with) my opinion. And try to show me specifically how you came to feel that way. I need respectful, adult criticism, otherwise I will never learn anything new.
ALL WE HAVE ARE OUR OPINIONS.
There is reality, and then there is my opinion about reality.
There is no other way for me to live.
That may be the case for you but the Bible teaches otherwise.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
So stop referring to the truth as just opinion, when all you are doing is saying that you only have opinion and everyone else is like you.
LA
What does scripture say to be saved? >> I John 5:1
Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Then you are born of God.
Cruciform
New member
Depends on whether or not one in fact has the right "Jesus."
It's truth but to be blunt, both myself and other Christians have real difficulty following Jesus.
He is against war and violence, against judging, against name-calling against seeing him as "God," against family values--and on and on.
He continues to disturb us, though, and that is my hope. Too many would rather give a salute to ancient theological phrases like "Son of God" or "born of a virgin." They don't want to look within or suffer any urge to change their own behavior. Which is what "repent" really means. The Greek word is metanoia.
Repeating dogmatic proclamations over and over again seems to win out in the end.
And that's much easier than trying to love our enemies, isn't it?
He said his yoke was heavy. Do you REALLY only think other so-called Christians who struggle daily with his message?
There is a time for war--
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Righteous Judging is acceptable-
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Placing a fitting name to some people is ok in some instances but those who lie about others will pay for it, if no repentance occurs.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Jesus is not the creator God. He is God's Son. However God is not a name.
TV evangelists do not mention Jesus very much. It is revealing, but there may be another reason for that.
Jesus is not against family values.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
LA
The Gospel of John is early Christian theology that demonstrates what Jesus meant to the community of believers that John wrote for. It is not the historical Jesus talking, but it is certainly the voice of his later followers.
I tend to gravitate to the synoptics for my glimpses of the real Jesus.
John's gospel is the "mystic gospel" that appeals to Buddhists and Hindus as well. But the Jesus portrayed is not believable. He did not go around spouting propositional theology. He taught in parables, a form of speech very very different from rational or logical thinking.
Your sources are not historically from Jesus. They are "riffs" on the Savior made long after the crucifixion. And "Paul's" Letter to the Ephesians is a forgery, according to researchers who study ancient writings.There is a time for war--
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Righteous Judging is acceptable-
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Placing a fitting name to some people is ok in some instances but those who lie about others will pay for it, if no repentance occurs.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Jesus is not the creator God. He is God's Son. However God is not a name.
TV evangelists do not mention Jesus very much. It is revealing, but there may be another reason for that.
Jesus is not against family values.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
LA
The best way to find out what Jesus was all about is in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. At least in my opinion, based on my years of study and prayer.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Divinity only 'assumed'......
Divinity only 'assumed'......
Note: the word 'Christ' or 'Messiah' means 'anointed' or 'anointed one',....it does NOT necessarily imply, infer or connote 'divinity' - not to be split hairs here,...but just clarifiying. Its only doctrines/theories/beliefs arising after that assume certain qualities or attributes upon 'The Christ' or 'Jesus'....or whoever God has anointed. Unless we're specifying a particular person within a given context.....a 'christ' can be any human person anointed by God,...from priests to Kings.
- I just chimed in from your post-archive list and chose to respond to this, haven't read the rest of the thread yet.
Divinity only 'assumed'......
Note: the word 'Christ' or 'Messiah' means 'anointed' or 'anointed one',....it does NOT necessarily imply, infer or connote 'divinity'
- not to be split hairs here,...but just clarifiying. Its only doctrines/theories/beliefs arising after that assume certain qualities or attributes upon 'The Christ' or 'Jesus'....or whoever God has anointed. Unless we're specifying a particular person within a given context.....a 'christ' can be any human person anointed by God,...from priests to Kings.- I just chimed in from your post-archive list and chose to respond to this, haven't read the rest of the thread yet.
Are you saying Jesus approve of His followers to wage war using this verse?
How do you read Jesus' word of "love your enemy"?
Where did Jesus say He was savior?
