Denial of the deity of Jesus

[Ben Masada]

Do Jews normally murder other Jews for sharing the same faith?

No, they don't, unless they lose their mind. Otherwise, they are quite civilized which answers for the false Christian charge that they had murdered Jesus. The opposite is rather true that even his colleagues, the Pharisees tried to save him twice from being arrested, first by Herod's cohorts (Luke 13:31) and the second time around from Pilate. (Luke 19:37-40).

In the case of Herod, Jesus listened to the Pharisees and escaped arrest. In the case of Pilate, Jesus seemed to be enjoying the parade, got arrested and condemned to the cross on a political charge of insurrection. Hence, his verdict INRI which was nailed by Pilate's command on the top of Jesus' cross.

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Jesus' faith was squarely in his heavenly Father, Judaism is mostly an evolved religion around the blind faith that Abraham had in Jesus' day.

2 - Jesus followed the reasonable requirements of Judaism but not the barbaric man made Leviticus laws. The religion of Jesus was divorced from the Traditionalism and enslaving rituals of Judaism.

3 - Between Abram and Jesus a great deal of human egotism and politics influenced the so called scripture.

4 - Jesus was killed by the Jews who hated him and therefore his Father also.

1 - That Abraham had in Jesus' day!!! I did not know that Abraham had been a contemporary of Jesus. Tell me about it! No, no, in a second thought, forget it!

2 - And the barbaric man called Paul who tried to vandalize Judaism with the things of Christianity.

3 - I am aware of that. It is called Replacement Theology a anti-Jewish policy fabricated by Paul.

4 - I did not know that you were so anti-Semite as to slander the Jews with anti-Jewish lies being aware yourself that the Romans were the one who murdered Jesus.

 

[Apple7]

No, they don't, unless they lose their mind. Otherwise, they are quite civilized which answers for the false Christian charge that they had murdered Jesus. The opposite is rather true that even his colleagues, the Pharisees tried to save him twice from being arrested, first by Herod's cohorts (Luke 13:31) and the second time around from Pilate. (Luke 19:37-40).

In the case of Herod, Jesus listened to the Pharisees and escaped arrest. In the case of Pilate, Jesus seemed to be enjoying the parade, got arrested and condemned to the cross on a political charge of insurrection. Hence, his verdict INRI which was nailed by Pilate's command on the top of Jesus' cross.

Its good that you trust the NT enough to quote it for your position.

You will have no issue with these passages, either...


Jesus addressing the Jews

υμεις εκ του πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουκ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτου εγω δε οτι την αληθειαν λεγω ου πιστευετε μοι

umeis ek tou patros tau diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros umōn thelete poiein ekeinos anthrōpoktonos ēn ap archēs kai en tē alētheia ouk estēken oti ouk estin alētheia en autō otan lalē to pseudos ek tōn idiōn lalei oti pseustēs estin kai ho patēr autou egō de oti tēn alētheian legō ou pisteuete moi

You are from the Devil as the father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8.44 – 45)


Here we have Jesus, Himself, proclaiming to the unbelieving Jews, in no uncertain terms, that they are from the Devil.

Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as The Truth are doing the Devil’s work – they are following the Devil’s desires (epithumias), of which, he has been a murderer of man (anthrōpoktonos) from the very beginning.

Jesus had already rightly labeled Jews as murderers and liars long before they killed Him.









Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed (apekteinate) Jesus.

Following the example of their father, the Devil, the Jews chose the release of a murderer over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life) – further proving that Jews prefer death over life.










Stephen to the Jewish Counsel

σκληροτραχηλοι και απεριτμητοι καρδιαις και τοις ωσιν υμεις αει τω πνευματι τω αγιω αντιπιπτετε ως οι πατερες υμων και υμεις τινα των προφητων ουκ εδιωξαν οι πατερες υμων και απεκτειναν τους προκαταγγειλαντας περι της ελευσεως του δικαιου ου νυν υμεις προδοται και φονεις εγενεσθε οιτινες ελαβετε τον νομον εις διαταγας αγγελων και ουκ εφυλαξατε

sklērotrachēloi kai aperitmētoi kardiais kai ōsin tois ōsin umeis aei tō pneumati tō agiō antipiptete ōs oi pateres umōn kai umeis tina tōn prophētōn ouk ediōxan oi pateres umōn kai apekteinan tous prokatangeilantas peri tēs eleuseōs tou dikaiou ou nun umeis prodotai kai phonies egenesthe oitines elabete ton nomon eis diatagas angelōn kai ouk ephulaxate

Obstinate and uncircumcised in heart and the ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as the fathers of you, and you. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they killed those who foretold concerning the coming of the Righteous One of whom now you have become betrayers and murderers. Who received the law by ordained messengers and did not keep. (Acts 7.51- 53)


Here we have Stephen addressing the Jewish Council, and telling them straight-out, as guided by the Holy Spirit, that their forefathers persecuted and killed (apekteinan) the prophets that foretold of Jesus’ coming.

Now that Jesus has come, the Jews, keeping in lock-step with their forefathers, become murderers (phonies) themselves by killing Jesus, fulfilling Satan’s desires.

Observe that the Jews are bestowed with full credit for murdering Jesus Christ.

Immediately after Stephen delivers his address to the Jewish Council, they prove him correct by murdering him in cold blood. Demonstrating that Jesus was right all along; the Jews are nothing but liars, murderers, followers of Satan.

 

[Elia]

Here we have Stephen addressing the Jewish Council, and telling them straight-out, as guided by the Holy Spirit, that their forefathers persecuted and killed (apekteinan) the prophets that foretold of Jesus’ coming.

Now that Jesus has come, the Jews, keeping in lock-step with their forefathers, become murderers (phonies) themselves by killing Jesus, fulfilling Satan’s desires.

Observe that the Jews are bestowed with full credit for murdering Jesus Christ.

Immediately after Stephen delivers his address to the Jewish Council, they prove him correct by murdering him in cold blood. Demonstrating that Jesus was right all along; the Jews are nothing but liars, murderers, followers of Satan.

Bs"d

Well, Stephen, guided by the "holy ghost", makes mistake after mistake after mistake.

So his hysterical anti-Semitic rant should not be taken too serious:

Look for instance at the book of Acts chapter 7. Here Stephen is arrested and led before the high court, accused of blasphemy. He speaks there about G.d calling Abraham. Acts 7:4 says: "He dwelt in Charran, and from there, when his father was dead, He removed him into this land wherein you now dwell." Here it clearly says that Abraham left Charran after the death of his father. Who was his father? See Genesis 11:26: "And Terah lived 70 years and he begot Abram, Nahor and Haran."....--So Abraham's father was Terah, who was 70 years when he begot Abraham.-Genesis 12:4: "And Abraham was 75 years old when he departed from Haran." At this time, when Abraham departed from Haran, his father was 70+75=145 years old. And how long did his father live? Genesis 11:32: "And the days of Terah were 205 years and Terah died in Haran."..

. When Abraham left Haran his father was 145 years old. His father lived to be 205 years old. That means that after Abraham left Haran, his father lived another 60 years. (205-145)

So how can Stephen say that Abraham left Haran after the death of his father?

In the same chapter it is written, Acts 7:14; "Then send Joseph and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls." Now look what the Holy book of Genesis says about this event. Genesis 46:27; "All the souls of the house of Jacob that came into Egypt were threescore and ten souls." So the Torah says that 70 people of Jacobs household left for Egypt, and Stephen says 75. How can this be?

In verses 15 and 16 of Acts 7 Stephen says; "So Jacob went down into Egypt and died, he and our fathers, and were carried over into Sychem, and laid into the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor, the father of Sychem."

This verse contains multiple mistakes.

Jacob was not buried in Schem, he was buried in the cave of the field of Machpela at Mamre. Genesis 49:33; "And when Jacob had made an end to commanding his sons he gathered up his feet into the bed and yielded up the ghost and was gathered unto his people."

Genesis 50:13; "For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpela which Abraham bought with the field for a possession for a burying place of Ephron the Hittite before Mamre."

So we see that Abraham did not buy a tomb in Schem, but in Mamre, which is Hebron, (Genesis 23:19) and there was Jacob buried, and not in Schem. .....There was in fact a burial place in Schem, but it was bought not by Abraham, but by Jacob, and not Jacob, but Joseph was buried there. See Joshua 24:32: "And the bones of Joseph which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground that Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem, for a hundred pieces of silver."

About Stephen it is written (Acts 6:5), that he was full of the Holy Ghost, and that they were not able to resist the spirit and wisdom by which he spoke. (verse 10)

What kind of wisdom is this, making mistake after mistake after mistake, all these misquotations?

Can somebody who is full of the Holy Ghost make so many mistakes?

What does this say about the reliability of the New Testament?



And what about the leading figure of the New Testament, Jesus, how reliable are his statements? Look at a statement by him from Mark 2:26. Here he says that David entered the Temple (Tabernacle) in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbreads. This event is recorded in I Samuel 21:1; "Then came David to Nob, to Achimelech the priest, …" During this incident Achimelech was high priest, and not his son Abiathar. A high priest functions until the day he dies, and then his son takes over. So only after the death of Achimelech, recorded in I Samuel 22:18, did his son Abiathar succeed him, as we can see in I Samuel 30:7; "And David said to Abiathar the priest, Achimelech's son, …"

Let us take a look at an other of Jesus' statements, from Matthew 23:35: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of the righteous Able unto the blood of Zacherias son of Berachias, whom you slaughtered between the Temple and the altar." This event is recorded in II Chronicles 24:20-21; "And the spirit of G.d came upon Zacheriah son of Jehoiada the priest which stood above the people, and said to them … And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones, at the commandment of the King, in the house of the LORD". .

Here we see that the Zacherias who was slaughtered between the Temple and the altar was the son of Jehoiada, and not the son of Berachia, as stated by Jesus. Jesus was mixing up two things: There was a prophet Zacherias son of Berachias, but he was not the one who was slain (II Chronicles 24:22) in the Temple courtyard. Zacherias son of Berachias was the prophet who gave us the Bible book Zacheriah. Look in Zacheriah 1:1; "In the eight month in the second year of Darius came the word of the LORD (Y-H-W-H) to Zecheriah, son of Berechiah, son of Iddo the prophet…" This Zecheriah lived after the destruction of the first Temple, during the rebuilding of the second Temple. The killing of Zacherias son of Jehoiada in the Temple courtyard happened in the first Temple period, long before Zecheriah son of Berechiah. In case that in your Bible translation Zacheriah 1:1 says "Zecheriah, son of Iddo the prophet, …" then be assured of the fact that the Hebrew text says; "Zecheriah, son of Berachiah, son of Iddo the prophet, …" In some Bible translations is the text corrupted in order to cover up this mistake of Jesus.

So from this we see that even the words of Jesus are not reliable.

How can it be that the "son of G.d", according to Christianity G.d himself, makes such elementary mistakes?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

Moses said: GOD IS ONE:

One Trinity.

Bs'd

"Your tongue devises destruction, like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
You love evil more than good, lying rather than speaking righteousness.
You love all devouring words, you deceitful tongue.
God shall likewise destroy you forever; He shall take you away, and pluck you out of your dwelling place, and uproot you from the land of the living."
Psalm 52:2-5

 

[Apple7]

Bs"d

Well, Stephen, guided by the "holy ghost", makes mistake after mistake after mistake.

So his hysterical anti-Semitic rant should not be taken too serious:

So....

Your people murder him, nice....

 

[Elia]

Trinitarian Christians are the only ones to properly interpret scripture, and to properly worship The Creator.

Bs"d

Only people who worship Y-H-W-H who is one worship the right God.

People who worship a three headed (man)god and bow down for statues are way off into polytheism and idolatry.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Apple7]

Look for instance at the book of Acts chapter 7. Here Stephen is arrested and led before the high court, accused of blasphemy. He speaks there about G.d calling Abraham. Acts 7:4 says: "He dwelt in Charran, and from there, when his father was dead, He removed him into this land wherein you now dwell." Here it clearly says that Abraham left Charran after the death of his father. Who was his father? See Genesis 11:26: "And Terah lived 70 years and he begot Abram, Nahor and Haran."....--So Abraham's father was Terah, who was 70 years when he begot Abraham.-Genesis 12:4: "And Abraham was 75 years old when he departed from Haran." At this time, when Abraham departed from Haran, his father was 70+75=145 years old. And how long did his father live? Genesis 11:32: "And the days of Terah were 205 years and Terah died in Haran."..

. When Abraham left Haran his father was 145 years old. His father lived to be 205 years old. That means that after Abraham left Haran, his father lived another 60 years. (205-145)

So how can Stephen say that Abraham left Haran after the death of his father?

In the same chapter it is written, Acts 7:14; "Then send Joseph and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls." Now look what the Holy book of Genesis says about this event. Genesis 46:27; "All the souls of the house of Jacob that came into Egypt were threescore and ten souls." So the Torah says that 70 people of Jacobs household left for Egypt, and Stephen says 75. How can this be?

In verses 15 and 16 of Acts 7 Stephen says; "So Jacob went down into Egypt and died, he and our fathers, and were carried over into Sychem, and laid into the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor, the father of Sychem."

You are using the MT (which is a recension...i.e. the text was altered and doctored by the Jews), as your reference point!


Why not refer to the LXX, which is much, much older than the MT...?

 

[Elia]

So....

Your people murder him, nice....

Bs"d

Sorry to hear about your god.

Mine is alive and well.

And don't believe everything you read in the corrupt NT.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction. The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.”
Jer 16:19

 

[Elia]

You are using the MT (which is a recension...i.e. the text was altered and doctored by the Jews), as your reference point!


Why not refer to the LXX, which is much, much older than the MT...?

Bs"d

This is why not:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction. The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.”
Jer 16:19

 

[Elia]

Jesus followed the reasonable requirements of Judaism but not the barbaric man made Leviticus laws. The religion of Jesus was divorced from the Traditionalism and enslaving rituals of Judaism.

Bs"d

Here are a few laws from Leviticus. You decide for yourself if they are made by men or by God:

"Now Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat."
Lev 11

"Then Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."
Lev 12

"And Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: 2 “When a man has on the skin of his body a swelling, a scab, or a bright spot, and it becomes on the skin of his body like a leprous[a] sore, then he shall be brought to Aaron the priest or to one of his sons the priests."
Lev 13

"Then Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. 3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper"
Lev 14

"And Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: 34 “When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the leprous plague[a] in a house in the land of your possession, 35 and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, ‘It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,’ 36 then the priest shall command that they empty the house,"
Lev 14

"And Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When any man has a discharge from his body, his discharge is unclean."
Lev 15

"And Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to Aaron, to his sons, and to all the children of Israel, and say to them, ‘This is the thing which the Lord has commanded, saying: 3 “Whatever man of the house of Israel who kills an ox or lamb or goat in the camp, or who kills it outside the camp, 4 and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting to offer an offering to the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord, the guilt of bloodshed shall be imputed to that man."
Lev 17

You're starting to get the picture?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Apple7]

Bs"d

Sorry to hear about your god.

Mine is alive and well.

And don't believe everything you read in the corrupt NT.

If its good enough for you to quote from, for your position, then its good enough for me....


:cigar:

 

[Caino]

1 - That Abraham had in Jesus' day!!! I did not know that Abraham had been a contemporary of Jesus. Tell me about it! No, no, in a second thought, forget it!

2 - And the barbaric man called Paul who tried to vandalize Judaism with the things of Christianity.

3 - I am aware of that. It is called Replacement Theology a anti-Jewish policy fabricated by Paul.

4 - I did not know that you were so anti-Semite as to slander the Jews with anti-Jewish lies being aware yourself that the Romans were the one who murdered Jesus.

Ben claims the Jews didn't reject Jesus' gospel and have him crucified by the Romans and on their behalf.........simultaneously Ben and the other Jewish person on this thread are rejecting Jesus gospel and trying to kill him all over again. That's the definition of delusion.

 

[Elia]

Ben claims the Jews didn't reject Jesus' gospel and have him crucified by the Romans and on their behalf.........simultaneously Ben and the other Jewish person on this thread are rejecting Jesus gospel and trying to kill him all over again. That's the definition of delusion.

Bs"d

The law of God requires that false prophets and blasphemers are executed.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Caino]

Bs"d

The law of God requires that false prophets and blasphemers are executed.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Yes, tell Ben that. Your kenfolks also mistreated the prophets and even killed them because of your man made ISIS like laws.

 

[KingdomRose]

Yet John Wrote Revelation, and was in fact 1 of only 3 men in the new testament who were caught up to heaven. Stephen, John the Apostle, and Paul.

Where do you get that, bsmitts? None of those men were caught up to heaven in the first century. The Bible doesn't say that at all.

 

[KingdomRose]

One reason why He is. People lie to persons.

Acts 5:3-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

You say "people lie to persons." True, and if you want to look at it that way, to lie to the Holy Spirit, one would be lying to Jehovah, the Father. The Holy Spirit is "of the Father," as Jesus said. He didn't say it was his spirit, or that it was another person....he said it was the Father's Spirit (Matthew 10:20, NASB). If someone lies to the Holy Spirit, he is lying to God---that is, the Father. (See John 17:3; I Corinthians 8:5,6.)

You apparently don't understand the difference between "God" and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. "God" is THE FATHER, Jehovah. Jesus is God's SON. The Holy Spirit is simply the Force by which Jehovah does things.

It was all the way in the 4th century that church leaders started teaching that the holy spirit was a person! It then became official church dogma. Interestingly Justin Martyr (2nd century) taught that the holy spirit was "an influence, or mode of operation of the Deity." Hippolytus likewise ascribed no personality to the holy spirit.

Anyway, you can't "pour out" a person, as the holy spirit is described as being (Titus 3:6), and there are many other reasons to not look at it as a person. It is sometimes referred to with a personal pronoun, but the Bible writer is following rules of grammar rather than making a statement that the holy spirit is a "he." Sometimes a neuter pronoun is applied. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. (Like "Wisdom" at Proverbs 1:20-33; 8:1-36, and "sin" and "death" at Romans 5:14,17,21.)

For other comments on this impersonal spirit, see www.jw.org .

 

[KingdomRose]

Are they Christian?

What do you mean by "deity"? If you mean that Jesus is himself God, then yes, his "deity" is to be denied.

He himself said that he was God's SON, not God. One cannot be God and ALSO God's Son. (John 5:19,30; John 8:28; John 10:36; John 17:3)

The word "deity" is not to be confused with what people understand "divine" to be. All the angels, for example, are divine...but they are not "deity." Jesus is divine, but he is not deity, as in God Almighty.

Those that deny Jesus' Almightiness are indeed Christian, and, I dare say, appreciate Jesus' own words much more than those who say he is God Almighty. He himself said that THE FATHER is the only true God (John 17:3).

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Its good that you trust the NT enough to quote it for your position.

2 - You will have no issue with these passages, either...Jesus addressing the Jews. You are from the Devil as the father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8.44 – 45)

3 - Here we have Jesus, Himself, proclaiming to the unbelieving Jews, in no uncertain terms, that they are from the Devil.

4 - Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as The Truth are doing the Devil’s work – they are following the Devil’s desires (epithumias), of which, he has been a murderer of man (anthrōpoktonos) from the very beginning.

5 - Jesus had already rightly labeled Jews as murderers and liars long before they killed Him.

6 - Peter to the Jews The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15) Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed Jesus.

7 - Following the example of their father, the Devil, the Jews chose the release of a murderer over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life) – further proving that Jews prefer death over life.

8 - Stephen to the Jewish Counsel. Obstinate and uncircumcised in heart and the ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as the fathers of you, and you. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they killed those who foretold concerning the coming of the Righteous One of whom now you have become betrayers and murderers. Who received the law by ordained messengers and did not keep. (Acts 7.51- 53)

9 - Here we have Stephen addressing the Jewish Council, and telling them straight-out, as guided by the Holy Spirit, that their forefathers persecuted and killed (apekteinan) the prophets that foretold of Jesus’ coming.

10 - Now that Jesus has come, the Jews, keeping in lock-step with their forefathers, become murderers (phonies) themselves by killing Jesus, fulfilling Satan’s desires. Observe that the Jews are bestowed with full credit for murdering Jesus Christ. Immediately after Stephen delivers his address to the Jewish Council, they prove him correct by murdering him in cold blood. Demonstrating that Jesus was right all along; the Jews are nothing but liars, murderers, followers of Satan.

1 - I do believe 20% of the NT as worthy learning something from. The other 80% is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

2 - That's what you think! You err for not properly knowing even your own NT. Did you know that Jesus was talking to the Jews who had believed in him? (John 8:31) How would he charge the Jews who had believe in him as being children of the Devil? It makes no sense to me. Besides, Jews do not believe in Devil. That's from the gospel of Paul and not the one of Jesus.

3 - That's not true. The text says that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him. Read John 8:31. You are messed up.

4 - Jesus was a Jew and I believe that he was saying the truth because to the Jews only, the Truth was given and refused to all other nations. Read Psalm. 147:19,20.

5 - This is an anti-Semitic slander against the Jews when rather the opposite was true when they gave evidences that twice Jesus' colleagues, the Pharisees tried to save Jesus from being arrested first from Herod if you read Luke 13:31, and later from Pilate if you read Luke 19:37-40. Enough to fell ashamed of what you said.

6 - Peter was a Jew and as such, he would never slander the Jews with having killed Jesus because he knew who had crucified Jesus. That speech in Acts 2 was written by Luke. Besides, Luke reports about Peter and John as being unlearned and ignorant Jews. Every one knows that illiterate people don't write books.

7 - That was not true at all. According to Mat. 5:17-19, Jesus came to confirm God's Law down to the letter which for the Jews is more important than life. Why would the Jews ask Pilate to crucify such a fellow Jew? It makes absolutely no sense. All lies by the Hellenist who wrote that gospel.

8 - If you focus on that speech of Stephen without Christian preconceived notions, the only conclusion is that Stephen did not happen at all. Too Christian when Paul was only a teenager at the time. (Acts 7:58) Therefore, the text was forged into the NT by Hellenist former disciples of Paul.

9 - Never a prophet foretold of Jesus' coming. Show me one and I'll tell you what it is about.

1 0 - More and more anti-Semitic slanders against the Jews without cause; so said Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount when he blessed the Jews. Read Mat. 5:11. That's why millions of Jews throughout History have been murdered through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. And all based on slanders.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben claims the Jews didn't reject Jesus' gospel and have him crucified by the Romans and on their behalf.........simultaneously Ben and the other Jewish person on this thread are rejecting Jesus gospel and trying to kill him all over again. That's the definition of delusion.

Jesus' gospel was Judaism from the Tanach. You are name-calling Jesus by implying that the gospel of Paul was the same as the gospel of Jesus. Sorry, but you are simply promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. If the dead could know that you are painting Jesus as a demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, he would turn in his grave. (Mat. 1:18)