Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

Don't make me laugh. Testable facts? Good grief. But it is your perogative to guess at things as they have always been however you see fit. Happy trails.

Clearly putting some of the evidence to the test isn't something you'd want to risk your fantasy beliefs on.
But fear not Morton's demon will probably keep you safe in your blissful ignorance.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Morton's_demon

 

[Yorzhik]

… because you are unable to comprehend the difference between assumptions and demonstrable truths. Get a grip, Yorz.

You are a fool, and the more you flog your dead horse the more of a fool you reveal yourself to be.

I understand that Shannon makes the assumption that the message sent is the message that is measured against the message that is received. What you haven't done is demonstrated, nor has anyone else, that common descent can work when Shannon is ignored. Demonstrate it and maybe you'll have a point.

Problem is, you contradict yourself:

I have never claimed noise works better

...

It is those rare ones that make the organism function better

And why deny Shannon? Because... because... it just has to be true:

mutations work because without them there is no substantive evolution.

!

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, in the chronology of the story Satan, represented by the term "crafty beast" wasn't something that resembled a snake until after he successfully tripped up Eve. But even then its a poetic term for the rebel celestial. The point is, it would be more accurate to say sin entered the world through Satan then Adam.....but the world had already fallen, death is normal for man but it wasn't for Adam and Eve, 2 incarnate celestials who could use "the tree of life" to sustain life indefinitely as long as they remained loyal to the Father.

I believe, as is revealed in the UB, that there is a much bigger, older story with much more explanation. The "crafty beast" or fallen Prince of this world, had been on the evolved earth 500,000 years before Adam and Eves arrival. He had a staff of 100 super-mortal volunteers who came with him to begin the teaching about the Universal Father as well as provide spiritual guidance and leadership for the populated earth. Lucifer, a high administrator who oversaw many inhabited worlds under the creatorship of Michael, fell into sin and rebellion against the rule of the unseen father on Paradise. He managed to convince many other planetary princes to follow him as well as many different orders of celestial beings. "There was war in heaven", an ideological war of allegiance between the rule of the unseen the Father through his Son Michael, or to Lucifer, who sought to set up his own administration.

Dear Caino,

You are nuttier than a jar of peanuts. You interpret the Scriptures the way that you want to, even if it is a lie. I can see that by what you've said. Where do you come up with this stuff?? You make it up as you go along, without any help from God at all. It is Satan who has spoken to you, not God.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

From my religion so to speak:

102:6.7 "Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. Said Jesus: “If you love your fellows as I have loved you, then shall all men know that you are my disciples.”

102:6.8 To science God is a possibility, to psychology a desirability, to philosophy a probability, to religion a certainty, an actuality of religious experience. Reason demands that a philosophy which cannot find the God of probability should be very respectful of that religious faith which can and does find the God of certitude. Neither should science discount religious experience on grounds of credulity, not so long as it persists in the assumption that man's intellectual and philosophic endowments emerged from increasingly lesser intelligences the further back they go, finally taking origin in primitive life which was utterly devoid of all thinking and feeling.

102:6.9 The facts of evolution must not be arrayed against the truth of the reality of the certainty of the spiritual experience of the religious living of the God-knowing mortal. Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact. Scientific materialism has gone bankrupt when it persists, in the face of each recurring universe phenomenon, in refunding its current objections by referring what is admittedly higher back into that which is admittedly lower. Consistency demands the recognition of the activities of a purposive Creator.

102:6.10 Organic evolution is a fact; purposive or progressive evolution is a truth which makes consistent the otherwise contradictory phenomena of the ever-ascending achievements of evolution. The higher any scientist progresses in his chosen science, the more will he abandon the theories of materialistic fact in favor of the cosmic truth of the dominance of the Supreme Mind. Materialism cheapens human life; the gospel of Jesus tremendously enhances and supernally exalts every mortal. Mortal existence must be visualized as consisting in the intriguing and fascinating experience of the realization of the reality of the meeting of the human upreach and the divine and saving downreach." UB 1955

Caino,

I've read enough. You are an extremely sick individual for believing the way you do. After reading a paragraph of your garbled garbage, I cannot bring myself to read the rest of your fantasy story. You ramble on with your fancy words saying absolutely nothing that makes any sense. You go ahead and believe what you wish. See where it gets you when Jesus Returns.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I agree it served a purpose in the evolution of religion but it's outdated now. Jesus liberated mankind from the need for idols, relics, traditions and other religions of the mind.

Jesus did not come to change the law, but to fulfill it. That's what He says. Jesus read from the book of Isaiah when addressing those in the Temple. Jesus fulfilled much of what is written in the Bible about Him.

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

I understand that Shannon makes the assumption that the message sent is the message that is measured against the message that is received. What you haven't done is demonstrated, nor has anyone else, that common descent can work when Shannon is ignored. Demonstrate it and maybe you'll have a point.

Problem is, you contradict yourself:
...

And why deny Shannon? Because... because... it just has to be true:!

You are the one who seems to think they have disproved evolution with a simple argument, so it is for you to demonstrate it is false. Misapplying Shannon's Noisy Channel Theorem is not getting you anywhere because you end up relying on a circular argument: you assume that mutations are always bad because Shannon assumed noise in a communications channel were undesirable, and engineers who have decided that they want to reproduce a signal exactly do the same. ALL assumption, with no rational given by you for assuming that to be the case when looking at DNA copying.

To upset one of the most widely accepted physical theory (by actual scientist who understand what they are talking about) you must offer more that unjustified assumptions, Yorz. You are flogging a dead horse, yet you are convinced despite all the evidence that you can get the old nag on its feet. Even the other YECs here have abandoned your argument. You are a laughing stock.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I agree it served a purpose in the evolution of religion but it's outdated now. Jesus liberated mankind from the need for idols, relics, traditions and other religions of the mind.

Caino,

No, it is not outdated now. Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures. It is written in Rev. 22:18KJV, "If any man shall add to these things {the whole Bible}, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." You are pushing up daisies.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I agree it served a purpose in the evolution of religion but it's outdated now. Jesus liberated mankind from the need for idols, relics, traditions and other religions of the mind.

So Jesus liberated mankind of other religions of the mind. I know that freelight believes in a large part, the religion of Hinduism. And part Christianity.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

That's good, Jesus was a universalist as well, he was dedicated to universal spiritual truths. Unfortunately his disciples didn't remain true to his ideals.

Jesus wasn't a Universalist. He was dedicated to the Scriptures in the Holy Bible. He referred to Moses writing part of the Bible.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

It works for you, but modern man does not buy the inconsistencies of the Hebrews story about themselves. They became false prophets.

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time. Modern man understands this. How about your Urantia Book. Has it sold 100 copies??

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Whatever you do don't let reality spoil your particular fantasy story nor indeed stop you from taking a pot shot at the fantasy story of someone else.

Dear alwight,

My particular story is not fantasy.

Michael

 

[Hedshaker]

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time. Modern man understands this. How about your Urantia Book. Has it sold 100 copies??

Michael

I'm sorry Michael..... I think that both you and Caino are equally wrong and mythical, but when it comes to debate Caino is mopping the floor with you. Rightly or wrongly Caino is making bona fide points about his point of view while you are calling names, attacking him personally and saying logical fallacies. eg, and you've been told this before, the popularity of one book or statement over another does not indicate its truth value. This fallacy is called: Argumentum ad populum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

My particular story is not fantasy.

Michael

Why should I believe that Michael?

 

[Cross Reference]

I would say it is because you can believe anything.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I'm sorry Michael..... I think that both you and Caino are equally wrong and mythical, but when it comes to debate Caino is mopping the floor with you. Rightly or wrongly Caino is making bona fide points about his point of view while you are calling names, attacking him personally and saying logical fallacies. eg, and you've been told this before, the popularity of one book or statement over another does not indicate its truth value. This fallacy is called: Argumentum ad populum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Dear Hedshaker,

He's hardly mopping up the floor with me or any of the rest of us who post to him. You just wish that I don't succeed because you prefer Caino over me. I am not surprised. And the points Caino are making are quotes out of freelight's Urantia Book. Have you read a good amount of what he quotes? All heady mumbo jumbo stuff that amounts to nothing. It is also written, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." See Rev. 22:19KJV. If he wants to say that parts of the Bible are untrue, then he should know instead that they are instead, true. Having just added Mary's birth of Jesus, and all of those words that complement it is kind of late, to say the least. Sure took long enough.

Have A Good Day!! Make It Count!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Why should I believe that Michael?

Dear alwight,

You are free to believe whatever you wish. But that doesn't make you right.

Michael

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

You are free to believe whatever you wish. But that doesn't make you right.

Michael

Yes I believe what seems to be reasonable to believe, why should I think that your beliefs and assertions are reasonable?

 

[Caino]

Dear Caino,

You are nuttier than a jar of peanuts. You interpret the Scriptures the way that you want to, even if it is a lie. I can see that by what you've said. Where do you come up with this stuff?? You make it up as you go along, without any help from God at all. It is Satan who has spoken to you, not God.

Michael

How ironic, the enemies of Jesus said he was nuts too, even his own family tried to bring him home after he began his public ministry because he was so different than the expectations of the Messiah derived from the scriptures.

 

[Caino]

Caino,

No, it is not outdated now. Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures. It is written in Rev. 22:18KJV, "If any man shall add to these things {the whole Bible}, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." You are pushing up daisies.

Michael

The threat about adding to specifically the "Book of Revelation" was a common end note in the age when they didn't have copyright law. But just the same if Jesus returned today and tried in vain to teach pig headed Christians anything new, you would have to explain to him that you would need to start a new Bible because the apocalyptic editors of Johns vision on Patmos warned us a bout terrible plagues and bugs and sour milk and stuff.

 

[Caino]

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time. Modern man understands this. How about your Urantia Book. Has it sold 100 copies??

Michael

Over a million last I heard, but the UB is not so much for this age it's more for open minded people of a future age. I speculate it's a prelude for people searching for a consistent, sane explanation after WWIII.