Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

Logic error: appeal to authority.
You're saying belief in a designer is warranted because A. Flew believes it.

I'm saying that many disagree with alwights opinion. Flew is an example.
Here is another Fred Hoyle, British astrophysicist, said "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
In 'Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics'..."The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. "

 

[gcthomas]

Since when had common sense been the driving force in science?

 

[alwight]

Fallacy of moving the goal posts. We weren't talking about a Christian. We were talking about if the presumption of a designer was warranted. Yes...it is warranted. As Flew said, he followed the evidence to *a designer.*

There is a whole difference between there being a possible "designer" and designed complex life suddenly appearing as is from nowhere, so I suggest that you stop trying to conflate Flew with YECism.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Then why shouldn't I be allowed to be convinced by Jesus actually returning rather than the words of a self proclaimed prophet with a somewhat unreliable track record?
Why is it so important that I should believe your bald assertions first, evidence-free? :think:

Dear alwight,

Because, Al, you should realize that it's quite a possibility that you won't make it to Heaven to be with Jesus during this 1st Resurrection. You will have another chance over 1,000 years from when Jesus Returns, but it will be so much harder than now. Jesus says so right in Rev. 20:6KJV.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection: on such the Second Death hath no power." You ponder what it says. If you have any questions, let me know.

I am not a self-proclaimed prophet, nor do I have unreliable track record. You have no idea what all has happened in my life, so you shouldn't speak such. God will bear witness to that. You don't know how well I've been doing as a witness, for it has been over many years. And I have done MANY exploits since things began. Like I said, you have no idea about my work and myself. Does our President and Israel's Prime Minister have an autographed copy of Your Book? Do you know that it is very hard to write a book of such a topic, and making sure it is the whole truth? I won't go on about it.

Much Love & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

We can agree then Michael that you are no prophet, your powers of foretelling the future are in no way better than my own. You claim to have a special insight yet have been unable to demonstrate it, which rather suggests to me that your testimony is without value and that unfounded belief is simply irrational.

Dear alwight,

Well, alwight, let's see what the future brings and then you can say how lousy of a prophet I am. If you think you could DO a better job, I'd love to see you try! You'd be giving up quickly!! You are just upset that you might have a terrible future, so you'd rather denounce the messenger and still be able to do what you want and be saved.

Cheerio!!

Michael

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

Because, Al, you should realize that it's quite a possibility that you won't make it to Heaven to be with Jesus during this 1st Resurrection. You will have another chance over 1,000 years from when Jesus Returns, but it will be so much harder than now. Jesus says so right in Rev. 20:6KJV.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection: on such the Second Death hath no power." You ponder what it says. If you have any questions, let me know.

I am not a self-proclaimed prophet, nor do I have unreliable track record. You have no idea what all has happened in my life, so you shouldn't speak such. God will bear witness to that. You don't know how well I've been doing as a witness, for it has been over many years. And I have done MANY exploits since things began. Like I said, you have no idea about my work and myself. Does our President and Israel's Prime Minister have an autographed copy of Your Book? Do you know that it is very hard to write a book of such a topic, and making sure it is the whole truth? I won't go on about it.

Much Love & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

Michael, Michael, a year ago you were saying that last year was the last year, blood moon etc . As a prophet you are like nowhere man.
Please try to understand that your ancient scripture has no magical powers over me, it is only words written by ancient people for ancient people possessing limited understanding of our physical reality, where superstitious claptrap was used to fill in the gaps in their knowledge.
I don't believe in any resurrection and that when we go, we are in all probability gone.
I have no interest at all in joining any elite group of Godly favourites nor would I be content living forever in some nutty supernatural place where interesting people, science, risks and challenges were all absent. lain:

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm saying that many disagree with alwights opinion. Flew is an example.

So?

Here is another Fred Hoyle, British astrophysicist, said

Again, so......?

Since you apparently think quotes from scientists are so compelling, should I start posting quotes from all the scientists who've concluded that creationism is pseudoscientific nonsense?

 

[6days]

There is a whole difference between there being a possible "designer" and designed complex life suddenly appearing as is from nowhere, so I suggest that you stop trying to conflate Flew with YECism.

You STILL are TRYING to move the goalposts. We were not discussing Christianity. Were were not discussing YECism. And nobody implied Anthony Flew was a Biblical creationist.


This is what you said... and what I replied to.

your presumption of a designer isn't warranted or required as an explanation, since inserting a miracle at some point just isn't science.

That is your opinion, *but other scientists, and even atheist scientists have come to the realization that the most scientific explanation is that "In the beginning, God created..."


In fact it is the atheist position which is illogical and unscientific. It seems that atheists need to believe that nothing caused everything, or agree that there was a cause to everything that existed throughout eternity.*

 

[Jose Fly]

other scientists, and even atheist scientists have come to the realization that the most scientific explanation is that "In the beginning, God created..."

Which "atheist scientists"? Be specific.

 

[Tyrathca]

Which "atheist scientists"? Be specific.

And how many of them are named Steve?

 

[Jose Fly]

And how many of them are named Steve?

Hah! Project Steve....that was an awesome smackdown.

 

[alwight]

Originally Posted by alwight
There is a whole difference between there being a possible "designer" and designed complex life suddenly appearing as is from nowhere, so I suggest that you stop trying to conflate Flew with YECism.

You STILL are TRYING to move the goalposts. We were not discussing Christianity. Were were not discussing YECism. And nobody implied Anthony Flew was a Biblical creationist.

But 6days this is about creation v evolution (right?) and I wasn't talking about Christianity if you look, I was talking about Young Earth Creationism. It's you who is trying to move the goal posts by trying to include a specific religious belief. There is nothing contradictory about Flew proposing deism if he actually did, but the evidence does not indicate any spontaneous miraculous Young Earth creation of complex life, it indicates the entirely natural deep time process of evolution by natural selection.

This is what you said... and what I replied to.

your presumption of a designer isn't warranted or required as an explanation, since inserting a miracle at some point just isn't science.

That is your opinion, *but other scientists, and even atheist scientists have come to the realization that the most scientific explanation is that "In the beginning, God created..."

Nevertheless Flew arguably became a deist not a YEC, while I am not responding here to any other supposed converts you my have up your sleeve. Correct me if I'm wrong but a miraculous creation of complex life isn't my opinion it's YECism right?

In fact it is the atheist position which is illogical and unscientific. It seems that atheists need to believe that nothing caused everything, or agree that there was a cause to everything that existed throughout eternity.*

:yawn: That clearly is your opinion!

 

[6days]

...*but the evidence does not indicate any spontaneous miraculous Young Earth creation of complex life, it indicates the entirely natural deep time process of evolution by natural selection

Thats your opinion which i disagree with.


And you still are avoiding...trying to move goalposts.*

Reminder...You said "your presumption of a designer isn't warranted or required as an explanation, since inserting a miracle at some point just isn't science."


Many such as atheist Anthony Flew did conclude that inserting a designer was warranted.*

Nevertheless Flew arguably became a deist not a YEC

We weren't talking about YEC. We were discussing how many such as Flew thought the presumption of a designer was warranted.

 

[alwight]

Thats your opinion which i disagree with.


And you still are avoiding...trying to move goalposts.*

Reminder...You said "your presumption of a designer isn't warranted or required as an explanation, since inserting a miracle at some point just isn't science."


Many such as atheist Anthony Flew did conclude that inserting a designer was warranted.*




We weren't talking about YEC. We were discussing how many such as Flew thought the presumption of a designer was warranted.

This topic is about (YE)creationism v evolution not Christianity v evolution, so what is the point of bringing up Flew since deists aren't usually YECs nor Christians? :liberals:

 

[6days]

Alwight.... you are now dodging and weaving...unable to defend your statement. Perhaps you can just admit it was your opinion, and that plenty of intelligent scientists disagree with you.
A BELIEF IN A DESIGNER IS WARRANTED BY THE EVIDENCE.


NASA astronomerJohn O'Keefe *"We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."A BELIEF IN A DESIGNER IS WARRANTED BY THE EVIDENCE.

*

 

[alwight]

If 6days is not talking about YECism here is he becoming an OAC? :think:

 

[alwight]

Alwight.... you are now dodging and weaving...unable to defend your statement. Perhaps you can just admit it was your opinion, and that plenty of intelligent scientists disagree with you.
A BELIEF IN A DESIGNER IS WARRANTED BY THE EVIDENCE

Nonsense, even with some kind of deist designer, which I rather doubt personally, where exactly is any miraculous creation indicated, never mind YECism?

 

[Jose Fly]

plenty of intelligent scientists disagree with you.
A BELIEF IN A DESIGNER IS WARRANTED BY THE EVIDENCE.

Many such as atheist Anthony Flew did conclude that inserting a designer was warranted.

Again.....so? All I've ever seen you muster to support this notion of "plenty" is a very small handful of people, some of whom aren't even scientists (e.g., Flew who is a philosopher).

You keep dodging my questions on this, such as: Since you apparently think quotes from scientists are so compelling, should I start posting quotes from all the scientists who've concluded that creationism is pseudoscientific nonsense?

 

[Yorzhik]

He didn't become a Christian - he was a lot smarter than you, apparently. In his famous interview he referred to "the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam", said he didn't believe in a personal God, heaven or hell, or indeed any sort of after life. He still believed in an old Earth and evolution.

LOL. Yeah, you caught me not being clear. The emphasis was meant to be on the word "fear", not the word "Christian." I merely meant that Anthony did not find himself worrying about adhering to common descent dogma even if it lead to Christianity. True, he didn't become a Christian but he wouldn't have been afraid to go there if that is where the evidence lead.

The point is that even if the evidence doesn't lead to Christianity in the end, you should stop your irrational adherence to common descent dogma and say, "if the evidence leads to Christianity, then so be it." Then you will be free to see the solid science that shows mutations+NS is wrong and you'll also see the shoddy science that common descent relies on. And you don't even have to be a Christian at the end of it all.

 

[Yorzhik]

As you know I deeply respect all your opinions Yorzhik.

Awww, you cut me to the quick. It's too bad really, because if you can't handle to simple reasoning that I use you certainly won't listen to something that you'd actually have to think about harder.