Creation vs. Evolution

[Tyrathca]

Our beliefs about the past are not falsifiable. Neither common ancestry beliefs, nor common Designer.

That's just outright wrong. A belief about the past can be falsifiable so long as it can make a new prediction which can be tested and potentially falsified. It's really that simple, being about the past doesn't prevent that.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Just when you think the irony meter can't go any higher.....

Your belief system is not falsifiable.
Evolutionism says a poor design is evidence to support their beliefs.
Evolutionism says a great design is evidence to support their beliefs.
IOW... evidence doesn't matter... Its all about just so stories.

 

[6days]

Just when you think the irony meter can't go any higher.....

Yes, Greg... I agree. Here is an example

R. Dawkins says poor design is evidence for evolution
"Any engineer would naturally assume that the photocells would point towards the light,..... it is the principle of the thing that would offend any tidy-minded engineer). "

R. Dawkins says good design is evidence for evolution
He says "we need to interpret (GOOD) design in a special Darwinian sense."
He says "Darwinian natural selection can produce an uncanny illusion of design. An engineer would be hard put to decide whether a bird or a plane was the more aerodynamically elegant.
So powerful is the illusion of design, it took humanity until the mid-19th century to realize that it is an illusion"

So... It isn't really evidence that matters to evolutionists..... Its all about "interpreting it in a special Darwinian sense". Its all about maintaining the story... Its an example of evolutionists unwilling to follow the evidence when it seems to lead to a Creator.

 

[6days]

That's just outright wrong. A belief about the past can be falsifiable so long as it can make a new prediction which can be tested and potentially falsified. It's really that simple, being about the past doesn't prevent that.

Oh...Ok... So I guess a belief about "In the beginning, God created..." is falsifiable then. Prediction is that gravity on earth would be fine tuned for life.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Yes, Greg... I agree. Here is an example

R. Dawkins says poor design is evidence for evolution
"Any engineer would naturally assume that the photocells would point towards the light,..... it is the principle of the thing that would offend any tidy-minded engineer). "

R. Dawkins says good design is evidence for evolution
He says "we need to interpret (GOOD) design in a special Darwinian sense."
He says "Darwinian natural selection can produce an uncanny illusion of design. An engineer would be hard put to decide whether a bird or a plane was the more aerodynamically elegant.
So powerful is the illusion of design, it took humanity until the mid-19th century to realize that it is an illusion"

So... It isn't really evidence that matters to evolutionists..... Its all about "interpreting it in a special Darwinian sense". Its all about maintaining the story... Its an example of evolutionists unwilling to follow the evidence when it seems to lead to a Creator.

Your opinions are all well and good. Go on believing them to be true if that makes you happy. If it made me immensely happy to picture an alternate reality in place of the universe around us then I might also do it.

I'm interested to know what your definition of genetic information is. I have seen on this thread and at least one other that Jose Fly has been unsuccessful in his attempts to get you to answer his question. Why won't you give a definition?

I legitimately have no clue why you are opposed to doing it as I've only reviewed the most recent pages on this thread. Could you enlighten me as to why?

 

[Greg Jennings]

Oh...Ok... So I guess a belief about "In the beginning, God created..." is falsifiable then. Prediction is that gravity on earth would be fine tuned for life.

Except for gravity hasn't always been the same on Earth.....and it's not even throughout the planet today either. Animals live in areas at sea level, and others live way down at the bottom of the ocean where the pressure is so great it would crush a human like a tin can.

So I don't know what you mean about gravity being "fine tuned for life." Life fine tuned itself around whatever level of gravity its environment had

 

[6days]

Except for gravity hasn't always been the same on Earth.....and it's not even throughout the planet today either. Animals live in areas at sea level, and others live way down at the bottom of the ocean where the pressure is so great it would crush a human like a tin can.

So I don't know what you mean about gravity being "fine tuned for life." Life fine tuned itself around whatever level of gravity its environment had

Of course you don't.
You are unwilling to follow the evidence that leads to a super intellect.
(And you might have noticed that gravity is just about right for where we live..... Humans don't live at the bottom of the ocean)
Being an evolutionist Greg... You explain away the evidence instead of following it no matter where it leads.

BTW...Gravity is determined by the gravitational constant. Now that constant requires a very... VERY precise fine tuning for life to exist. Imagine you have a measuring stick stretching out beyond our universe with 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 increments. Now vary the constant by just one increment... and life does not exist.

Interpretation of the evidence... "In the beginning, God..."

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7659795/fine_tuning_of_gravity_teleological_argument_for_god/

 

[6days]

Your opinions are all well and good. Go on believing them to be true if that makes you happy. If it made me immensely happy to picture an alternate reality in place of the universe around us then I might also do it
I'm interested to know what your definition of genetic information is.

Wow..... Are you trying to be obvious with the fallacies? Genetic information has nothing to do with evolutionists saying no matter how bad... no matter how good the design... Its all evidence for their beliefs. Or... am I missing your point?

(BTW... Jose has been provided with definitions before. If you are truly interested... use google and find definitions such as http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_information)

 

[Tyrathca]

Wow..... Are you trying to be obvious with the fallacies? Genetic information has nothing to do with evolutionists saying no matter how bad... no matter how good the design... Its all evidence for their beliefs. Or... am I missing your point?

(BTW... Jose has been provided with definitions before. If you are truly interested... use google and find definitions such as http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_information)

6days the conversation in this thread has for quite some time been about information. Only you have shifted to good design / bad design for some reason.

 

[Tyrathca]

Oh...Ok... So I guess a belief about "In the beginning, God created..." is falsifiable then. Prediction is that gravity on earth would be fine tuned for life.

That isn't a prediction, a prediction has to be about something you don't know and also needs to be specific. Gravity "fine tuned for life" is none of those, we know what gravity we have. And fine tuned is in itself is an interpretation of data not a prediction about what the data should be.

That's like saying I predict waters shape in my cup will be fined tuned to the shape of my cup. It's not a prediction (i know what the water in my cup looks like) and the next part is an interpretation of that shape (a silly one too).

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael I can tell you that in my time I have accurately predicted the outcome of several races and football matches. Impressed?
If otoh you get help from God are you telling me that He lied to you? :noway:

Dear alwight,

No, I am not impressed. I get help from God on pertinent issues. God did not lie to me, Satan did, and in my zeal to give a time period to DavisBJ, I said something I should not have. He kept bugging me for 'when,' just like some others on this site. You might notice that I won't give a 'when' answer any more.

Much Love & Cheerio,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

You being wrong about Armageddon Michael was something that we could all know about but apart from some snow falling in March what exactly have you got right that I might be more impressed by? :juggle:

Dear alwight,

Nothing that I can send proof of over the Internet. A couple personal things, though, are things you can wait for. I prayed to God about whether I could go to Florida or should I go to Arizona. I wanted to go to FL, but He sent 8 inches of snow, which meant to me that I had to go to Phoenix. So I gave my employer a 3-month notice and moved to AZ after that.

Once in Phoenix, it was nothing like I had expected. I first noticed the Saguaro cacti all over the place in the desert, and in Phoenix also. While waiting at a bus stop alone, an angel spoke to me saying 'Look around yourself.' I noticed the dry air, the desert palm trees and the different plants and animals, and it seemed like I was in Egypt or something. And the angel said, "This is the land that is spiritually like Egypt {see Rev. 11:8KJV}, and also spiritually like the valley of Megiddo, hence Armageddon. The angel told me that I would die here and after 3½ days, there shall be a great earthquake, greater than any that has ever been since man was on Earth, and then the sun will be darkened {with clouds or a solar eclipse}, and the moon shall appear as blood {a total lunar eclipse}, and the stars shall fall from Heaven {see Rev. 6:11}, and heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places {see Rev. 6:12,13KJV}. It is Armageddon.

So, alwight, if you hear on the news that there has been a horrendous earthquake, surpassing any previous ever, then you will know that I've told you the truth, and then brace yourself for the ride of your life!! Okay, I've given my predictions to you, which I heard from the angel and the Scriptures. You asked. I'm even leaving out a lot of details. Jesus will return then. So now you have it. This is getting lengthy, so I'll close for now.

To My Excellent Buddy!!

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

Yes, Greg... I agree. Here is an example

R. Dawkins says poor design is evidence for evolution
"Any engineer would naturally assume that the photocells would point towards the light,..... it is the principle of the thing that would offend any tidy-minded engineer). "

R. Dawkins says good design is evidence for evolution
He says "we need to interpret (GOOD) design in a special Darwinian sense."
He says "Darwinian natural selection can produce an uncanny illusion of design. An engineer would be hard put to decide whether a bird or a plane was the more aerodynamically elegant.
So powerful is the illusion of design, it took humanity until the mid-19th century to realize that it is an illusion"

So... It isn't really evidence that matters to evolutionists..... Its all about "interpreting it in a special Darwinian sense". Its all about maintaining the story... Its an example of evolutionists unwilling to follow the evidence when it seems to lead to a Creator.

Both of Dawkins's statements are true - evolution propels life to local optima, not the global optimum. Once early eye tissue had a barely functioning detector, the reversal of the layers would have been unimportant. Evolution has driven the eye to the best it can manage given the suboptimal start, but it is obviously not the best imaginable.

Your though processes are also the best you can do, but are clearly not the best imaginable. Doesn't that mean you were not designed?

 

[MichaelCadry]

I really don't think so. Are you saying we can not trust the US governments records? Why not? They should be the gold standard in this type of question I would think.

Do you have a better source? Why is it better? My mistake then.

Dear Tyrathca,

Certainly you must know that I am a very busy person and I come on this thread as I can find time to do so. I have tons of other things to do, but I try. You don't seem to realize that 6days and I have to answer five or six of you to you speaking to each of us. In other words, I get posts from all of you, and I have to answer 5 or 6 of you, yet you all just write one post to me each. It makes it quadrupled or more. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Do you understand what I am saying here?

The site that you went to may have said there was no 7" of snow. I checked your reference out and I couldn't figure out how to use it either. You might try looking up Mar. 4, 1978 for the New York Post, and look at the article of snow there. From what I remember, the story hit the front page. You are the one who won't let me send you the News Article to you. So the burden of proof is not with me. But if I do find time, I will find the New York Post's article for you.

So what you are saying is that after a letter prediction, God sending a snow storm just for you and a 3 hour interview the reporter did not believe you? Why then do you expect anyone else to believe you decades later on just your say so? Is there a special reason why they didn't believe you?

Of course the reporter was terrified the whole latter day of the snow. So he believed me from the start. He could not write a story without me speaking to the owner of the newspaper first. I was sick of it and didn't press the matter further. The Lord said to forget about him and to kick off the dust of my shoes against him because he still balked even after he received such an excellent sign from God.

And yet there isn't a record of it despite checking with the people/organisation most likely to know. Shouldn't that tell you something?

You haven't posted them anywhere for posterity?
Can you say who? Maybe they know how to use a scanner and put it online.

If you didn't find it by your source, then your source is bad. I know how to use a scanner, but I just got Windows 10 and the upgrade from TOL, so it's a lot to deal with. I don't know if the printer is going to work since my upgrade to Windows 10. I will try to find out tomorrow, or when I can, to see if it's going to work. I've got a super-busy day later today. It is 6a.m. here, so it is way past my bedtime by far, but I'll manage somehow.

So really you have no idea when since you to have no idea what soon means either. For all you know soon could mean 10 days, 10 years or a millennia.

So why bother implying to others that you have any idea when it will occur when you're not actually predicting anything?

Ty, I really doubt that it will be a decade. Is that fine with you? I've got to run!!

Warm Wishes,

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

BTW...Gravity is determined by the gravitational constant. Now that constant requires a very... VERY precise fine tuning for life to exist. Imagine you have a measuring stick stretching out beyond our universe with 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 increments. Now vary the constant by just one increment... and life does not exist.

Interpretation of the evidence... "In the beginning, God..."

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7659795/fine_tuning_of_gravity_teleological_argument_for_god/

The metacafe link doesn't work for me, but since I have seen astrophysicists say that G could be 3000 times stronger and still allow for stable stars, I reckon that your enormous figure is just pulled out of your magic hat.

What is the origin or reasoning for that figure? Who calculated it?

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

Nothing that I can send proof of over the Internet. A couple personal things, though, are things you can wait for. I prayed to God about whether I could go to Florida or should I go to Arizona. I wanted to go to FL, but He sent 8 inches of snow, which meant to me that I had to go to Phoenix. So I gave my employer a 3-month notice and moved to AZ after that.

Most of us will make life choices from time to time, but unless God clearly actually wants to talk to me specifically, not just by arcane messages, or signs, or schizophrenia then I personally wouldn't even dream of asking. Why on earth wouldn't you simply decide for yourself where you wanted to be? :think:
Wasn't it 7 inches of snow btw?

Once in Phoenix, it was nothing like I had expected. I first noticed the Saguaro cacti all over the place in the desert, and in Phoenix also. While waiting at a bus stop alone, an angel spoke to me saying 'Look around yourself.' I noticed the dry air, the desert palm trees and the different plants and animals, and it seemed like I was in Egypt or something. And the angel said, "This is the land that is spiritually like Egypt {see Rev. 11:8KJV}, and also spiritually like the valley of Megiddo, hence Armageddon. The angel told me that I would die here and after 3½ days, there shall be a great earthquake, greater than any that has ever been since man was on Earth, and then the sun will be darkened {with clouds or a solar eclipse}, and the moon shall appear as blood {a total lunar eclipse}, and the stars shall fall from Heaven {see Rev. 6:11}, and heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places {see Rev. 6:12,13KJV}. It is Armageddon.

I'm not interested in Revelation Michael, it's all insane nonsense imo.

So, alwight, if you hear on the news that there has been a horrendous earthquake, surpassing any previous ever, then you will know that I've told you the truth, and then brace yourself for the ride of your life!! Okay, I've given my predictions to you, which I heard from the angel and the Scriptures. You asked. I'm even leaving out a lot of details. Jesus will return then. So now you have it. This is getting lengthy, so I'll close for now.

To My Excellent Buddy!!

Michael

Ancient superstitious ignorant people were scared of earthquakes, which is why they would be used and predicted, because sooner or later someone will guess right and will then no doubt imagine themselves to be a great prophet to tell other people that they should be listened to.

 

[gcthomas]

BTW...Gravity is determined by the gravitational constant. Now that constant requires a very... VERY precise fine tuning for life to exist. Imagine you have a measuring stick stretching out beyond our universe with 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 increments. Now vary the constant by just one increment... and life does not exist.

Interpretation of the evidence... "In the beginning, God..."

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7659795/fine_tuning_of_gravity_teleological_argument_for_god/

Don't worry - I've just found the source: one J Richards of the Discovery Institute (surprisingly , he is a theologian and philosopher, not a physicist or even a scientist).

And his text has gravity increased by a million times the factor you gave - you are even quote mining YEC advocates! Really, 6Days ... read it for yourself. He says that if you made gravity a million times stronger then the universe would be very different. Go Jay Richards. Yay.

http://www.discovery.org/f/11011

 

[6days]

The metacafe link doesn't work for me, but since I have seen astrophysicists say that G could be 3000 times stronger and still allow for stable stars, I reckon that your enormous figure is just pulled out of your magic hat.

What is the origin or reasoning for that figure? Who calculated it?

How finely is the force of gravity tuned? As we have seen, Collins argues that any kind of intelligent life would not be possible in a universe where gravity was more than 3000 times as powerful as it is in our universe.

Increasing the strength of gravity by 3000 sounds like a huge change. It certainly doesn’t sound like fine-tuning. However, with the electrostatic force being 1036 times stronger than gravity, (and the strong nuclear force 1040 times more powerful), even a 3000-fold increase in the strength of gravity is still only 1 in 1036 of the total range of forces. So this is actually very precise fine-tuning.

David Couchman MA, M.Sc, M.Min, July 2010

 

[Interplanner]

Don't worry - I've just found the source: one J Richards of the Discovery Institute (surprisingly , he is a theologian and philosopher, not a physicist or even a scientist).

And his text has gravity increased by a million times the factor you gave - you are even quote mining YEC advocates! Really, 6Days ... read it for yourself. He says that if you made gravity a million times stronger then the universe would be very different. Go Jay Richards. Yay.

http://www.discovery.org/f/11011

The DI is a team of several, many of whom are scientists. Richards happens to be one who is not but is on a team of several who are.

 

[Interplanner]

E.copies of DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS available to anyone who will review it at Amazon, no matter which direction the thumb points.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ld-keywords=sanford+book+deluge+of+suspicions

PM me for exchanging regular email addr or at www.interplans.net