Creation vs. Evolution

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Greg Jennings

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I vaguely remember in genetics experiments with fruit flies which were radiated, seeing weird extra appendages. But in nature you seldom see this since one has to be strong to survive, and the weak seldom get to breed. So radical mutants die out before they can pass these along. This limits evolution/variation. As we get better at gene splicing, we will learn more about the limits to varying a species.
That's correct. Mutations that are negative, such as needless extra appendages, are disadvantages and will likely cause the organism with them to die early.

What you're leaving out are mutations that are positive. Let's stick with your fruit fly example, and use the mutation of different body color. If a mutant fly has a positive mutation, like a color that allows it to blend into tree trunks more easily, then that fly is likely to live longer and have more youngsters, which it will pass on this positive mutation to.


You seem to be under the impression that all mutations are negative. They are not.
 

iouae

Well-known member
That's correct. Mutations that are negative, such as needless extra appendages, are disadvantages and will likely cause the organism with them to die early.

What you're leaving out are mutations that are positive. Let's stick with your fruit fly example, and use the mutation of different body color. If a mutant fly has a positive mutation, like a color that allows it to blend into tree trunks more easily, then that fly is likely to live longer and have more youngsters, which it will pass on this positive mutation to.


You seem to be under the impression that all mutations are negative. They are not.

But a different coloured fly is still a fly.

Imagine a pig giving birth to a piglet with half a wing sticking out of its back. This piglet is at a huge disadvantage since all the other piglets will laugh at it since they know that without hollow bones, two wings, feathers, breast muscles, high metabolism and weight loss, Oink is just going to remain the runt of the litter.

As John Hannibal Smith used to say "I love it when a plan comes together" and every single factor has to come together simultaneously before pigs fly.
 

Greg Jennings

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But a different coloured fly is still a fly.
Indeed

Imagine a pig giving birth to a piglet with half a wing sticking out of its back. This piglet is at a huge disadvantage since all the other piglets will laugh at it since they know that without hollow bones, two wings, feathers, breast muscles, high metabolism and weight loss, Oink is just going to remain the runt of the litter.
And that's still a pig....

As John Hannibal Smith used to say "I love it when a plan comes together" and every single factor has to come together simultaneously before pigs fly.
So what do you call it when a one generation of flies mutates a different color, the next mutates extra working wings, the next mutates longer stronger legs, the next mutates mandibles for carnivorous diets, the next mutates a stinger for self-defense, and the next mutates pincers for holding struggling prey? Is that still a fruit fly?

That's obviously a fast-forwarded version of evolution, as there's no way all of those mutations would happen in every single generation consecutively. But over 50,000 generations over 1000 years, it's certainly possible.



If you would, please look up evolution of the wing for me. It will clear up some of misconceptions you seem to hold based on your pig example (wings [and flight, for that matter] don't just evolve over one generation; it takes hundreds)
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear patrick jane,

Merry Christmas to you, too. You left me a Visitor's Message wishing me Merry Christmas, but I could not send you one. Hope your day was Joyful and Full of Love!!

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :guitar: :guitar: :singer: :cloud9:
 

iouae

Well-known member
So what do you call it when a one generation of flies mutates a different color, the next mutates extra working wings, the next mutates longer stronger legs, the next mutates mandibles for carnivorous diets, the next mutates a stinger for self-defense, and the next mutates pincers for holding struggling prey? Is that still a fruit fly?

That would be proof of evolution.

But here are the actual types of mutations, all seeming dead ends, even if you combine them all. All seem to just produce jokes for geneticists to laugh at. And there is nothing more sad than nerdy jokes.

"14 of the Funniest Fruit Fly Gene Names
By Shruti Iyer - 2nd March, 2015

Fruit flies (Drosophila Melanogaster) are the favourite model organisms of most geneticists, since researchers consider Drosophila melanogaster as “the poster child for genetics” because of the ease at which they can be manipulated and the speed at which effects can be observed. These sticky insect are obviously very different to humans, but studying them is stil beneficial as they carry many genes which are orthologs to the genes in vertebrates.

When I started research in Fruit Fly Genetics research I found it fascinating to learn about the mutant fruit fly names, which range from funny to slightly disturbing.

Here is the list of some interesting mutant gene names and their functions.

1. Indy gene (I‘m Not Dead Yet)

The indy gene encodes for an intermediate transporter protein in the Krebs Cycle; flies with mutations in this gene have longer than average lifespan.1,2 There is some controversy surrounding this gene, with reports that mutation does not result in increased longevity.3

2. Boss gene (Bride Of Sevenless)

Boss gene encodes a cell-surface receptor tyrosine kinase and this gene helps in photoreceptor cell (R-cell) development in the Drosophila compound eye. The flies carrying mutation in Boss gene fails to differentiate into a specific photoreceptor cell type called R7 cell.4 Bride of Sevenless gets its name from being the ligand which is binds to Sevenless,5,6 and is thus married to it.

3. Ken and Barbie

This gene encodes a putative transcription factor that functions in treminalia development in the fruit fly. Mutation in this gene leads to malformation in fruit fly’s genitalia development, meaning they lack external genitalia, just like our faithful Ken and Barbie dolls.7

4. Cheap Date

Flies with a mutation in this gene are very susceptible to alcohol.8 Interestingly, this gene is alternatively known as Amnesiac, since mutations in this gene also causes memory impairment.9

5. Lush

Flies with mutant LUSH gene are unusually attracted ethanol, propanol and butanol but have normal chemosensory responses to other odorants.10

6. Halloween Genes

This group of genes includes disembodied, spook, spookier, shadow, shade, shroud and phantom and all encode P450 enzymes which are involved in the synthesis of steroid hormones.11 Flies with mutations in Halloween Genes have altered exoskeleton development, giving the embryos a spooky appearance.

7. 18 Wheeler

This gene encodes a Toll-like receptor (TLR) and mutations in this gene result in defect in salivary gland invagination.12 This gene gets its name due to the segmented expression pattern which is thought to resemble a tarpaulin covering an 18-wheeler truck.

8. Tinman

This gene encodes a transcription factor which is involved in the formation of heart and dorsal vascular musculature. Flies with mutations in this gene have no heart, just like the tinman from OZ.13,14

9. Clown

This gene plays an important role in development and flies carrying mutations in this gene have an altered neuronal differentiation pattern. Because of this the eyes of clown flies are a mosaic of white and red.15,16

10. Van Gogh

Mutations in the Van Gogh gene affect the polarity of adult Drosophila cuticular structures and result in swirling of hair on the wing – hence the reference to Van Gogh.17

11. Dachshund

This gene encodes a nuclear protein that is required for normal development of the eye and leg. Mutations within this gene result in flies that have crippled legs, thus resembling a dachshund.18

12. Dreadlocks

This gene encodes an adapter protein which is required for the targeting and photoreceptor axon guidance. The R cell projections in Dreadlock gene mutants become disorganised and clump together, like dreadlocks.19

13. Swiss Cheese

The swiss cheese mutant causes glial hyperwrapping and brain degeneration in Drosophila. The brain of mutant flies has holes, just like swiss cheese!20

14. Hedgehog

This gene is a Drosophia segment polarity gene. Mutant larvae have an excess of denticles along their antero-posterior axis reminiscent of hedgehog spines.21"

http://bitesizebio.com/23221/14-of-the-funniest-fruit-fly-gene-names/
 

MichaelCadry

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It was a question, 6. Not an accusation. You're getting rather thin-skinned.


You've been corrected on this before. I feel that doing so again would be a waste of both our time


Scientists may have had a hypothesis that it had taken 5,000,000 years at some point in time, but thankfully science (unlike religion) is self-correcting. By completing the scientific method and collecting data and experimenting, scientists quickly discovered that it had taken a rather short amount of time


Indeed, but only in species (like your stickleback) with extremely short generational times. Find me any mammal that speciates as quickly. Or just one that's even close


Again, another simple fish. Hardly surprising to science


And the endless parade of misinformation continues


I've yet to hear anything that presents a problem for evolutionary theory. In fact, many of these things you use as evidenced against evolution were predicted by the theory.


Sure they do :chuckle:

I thought you'd come up with something challenging for me to examine in a post so long. Something to make me think, or make me do some research. But no, you just recycle the same defeated arguments

Dear Greg J,

Hey, I thought 6days did an excellent job of proving that changes can occur in millions less time than scientists attest to. I'm tired of having these millions of years shoved at me. Including the age of the Universe.

Now, if you want a better example, you shouldn't expect 6days to provide you with one. Get one of your own. Don't be so hard on him. He gets bombarded here by 4 or 5 people at a time. It's not easy to keep up with. I've been there.

They are not the same 'defeated' arguments. They are undefeated. And that is a good thing. I hope that your Christmas was pleasant and awesome.

Warm Wishes,

Michael
 

TheDuke

New member
Change does sometimes happen but it probably is never going to occur on an internet forum in my experience.
Glen Morton used to be a YEC, he is still a Christian but his explanation of his own situation and his YEC demon are worth reading about if you haven't already done so.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html


Thanks for the tip.

And good work dealing with that ICR crap.
I've already told Michael before, when you have to lie through your teeth to defend your position, maybe it's time to rethink it :)
 

TheDuke

New member
Creationists see every structure, chemical pathway, adaptation as something God put there in the organism. This is totally reasonable to us.

In my case I heard all the evolutionary arguments at university. They sounded utterly unreasonable to me.
...

But God definitely created Adam and Eve as Genesis says.



So, I was wondering which of the two you're missing, now it's apparent that you're missing both :)

You see, what seems reasonable to every person may be different, but the proof is in the pudding, my friend.

You can believe whatever you want, like Michael, who thinks every snow flake is hand-crafted by his saviour, or that humans were made to be via a Golem-spell. Whatever makes you happy.

But do this, knowing that you're missing so much of the beauty of our world and ironically, thanks to your limitless deliberate ignorance, you'll never learn to appreciate the entire majestic splendour of your god's own creation.

So pitiful!




"That's why the broken, the poor, the addicts are crowding into the kingdom of heaven"

So instead of trying to improve your life here, you'd rather cling onto the desperate hope of having a better one after death. Is there a more cowardly mangy attitude possible? You're demonstrating the very magnitude of brilliance of the best minds of our ancestors who figured out how to brake the chains of self-imposed misery. Those people to whom we owe everything and should be forever grateful. Too bad you just don't get it. But that's ok, it was already said before, "religion is opium!"
 

MichaelCadry

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I expect, given that you are not trained in science and you identify as christian, that you will have little motivation to go any deeper than goddidit.

I think I set higher standards for myself than that, as an atheist with some knowledge of science.

Believing things that are actually true is important to me. Even if I don't necessarily like those facts.

You don't like evolution by natural selection, even though it is true, because you would rather believe something that fits with other things you like to believe are true.

Christianity is quite an egocentric belief system.

Stuart


Dear Stuu,

I'm not just a Christian, but one who has studied for 42 years with God as my teacher. I know A LOT!! You shortchange me quite a bit and you don't realize it. I also have studied some science, and there are things I believe and things that I don't agree with. I've also studied chemistry and learned a lot from that indeed!! I've learned tons of stuff in my lifetime, especially being schooled by the Lord, the angels, visions, visits from the Holy Ghost, school teachers, pastors. I've been to a Catholic Church a number of times and they are not for me. There is too much ritual and not enough joyful love of Jesus and God!! Just splash some water on your face and baptize yourself. I don't think so.

I am a person/Christian who has learned A LOT about God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, angels, etc. and Theology. I could believe in natural selection, if I wanted to. You do see how cats who are of the same mother and father reproduce kittens with 6 or 7 toes, and other characteristics, like only 3 legs, one eye blind, etc. I can't say that a cat with 7 toes is less fit than one with 5. I would think having a few more claws would help in a cat fight. Anyway, I do believe in the survival of the fittest under certain circumstances, but I believe that God rules over it. That's how I see it.

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
What do you think your god will say to me about Uzzah? How do you think that will be explained? Uzzah was only trying to help, and he was instantly smitten. Isn't it a bit strange that a god would set up expectations that we help one another, and then out of the blue it turns out there was an exception that said 'but don't touch the Ark of the Covenant, even if it's falling off the cart'? Doesn't that strike you as massively unjust?

Stuart

Dear Stuart,

Don't you know that Uzzah died only to go to Heaven, a better situation by far. He was a necessary casualty and it is very likely that God wanted to take him to paradise instead. You don't realize it, but your spirit inside you, pops out of your body, and you are still alive and you don't die because God made it so spirits don't die and neither do souls. So you really don't understand that you'd best pick whose side you want to be on: God's or the Devil's, quick, for there is not very much time at all!! It's at the point of urgent. But you aren't going to just die and not still be alive in another dimension. That seems to be what you don't get. You'd best wise up pretty fast or for a real fact, you are going to go to hell, and in hell, you burn. Hell is in the center of our Earth with it's hot lava and hot magma. That's where spirits are sent who don't believe in God. They burn thousands of years. Do you want that instead of something better: like heaven? I don't know how else to tell you or what would make it more pretty to you. Do something quick, brother!! You're on a losing team and you don't realize it yet. And you don't realize that I DO KNOW what I'm talking about. I'm very skilled in these things, especially. So the choice is yours.

God Be With You And Your Decisions,

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:
 

iouae

Well-known member
So, I was wondering which of the two you're missing, now it's apparent that you're missing both :)

You see, what seems reasonable to every person may be different, but the proof is in the pudding, my friend.

You can believe whatever you want, like Michael, who thinks every snow flake is hand-crafted by his saviour, or that humans were made to be via a Golem-spell. Whatever makes you happy.

But do this, knowing that you're missing so much of the beauty of our world and ironically, thanks to your limitless deliberate ignorance, you'll never learn to appreciate the entire majestic splendour of your god's own creation.

So pitiful!




"That's why the broken, the poor, the addicts are crowding into the kingdom of heaven"

So instead of trying to improve your life here, you'd rather cling onto the desperate hope of having a better one after death. Is there a more cowardly mangy attitude possible? You're demonstrating the very magnitude of brilliance of the best minds of our ancestors who figured out how to brake the chains of self-imposed misery. Those people to whom we owe everything and should be forever grateful. Too bad you just don't get it. But that's ok, it was already said before, "religion is opium!"

I can tell from your writing that you are hot and bothered, whereas I am at perfect peace. (Is 57:19-21)

What really bothers you about religion? You gave a "reasoned argument" but I detect an underlying personal reason.
 
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MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Change does sometimes happen but it probably is never going to occur on an internet forum in my experience.
Glen Morton used to be a YEC, he is still a Christian but his explanation of his own situation and his YEC demon are worth reading about if you haven't already done so.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html

Dear alwight,

I am interested in the link you provided and will ponder things further. I mean, it wouldn't be hard for someone to fabricate the words written there, but still, I'll check it out for myself. Thank you for the article, Al. OK, now I have to go to bed. It is almost 4:15a.m. and I have to get my butt to bed because we've got to go visit relatives later today for post-Christmas celebrations. We can't celebrate Christmas on just one day, when you have so many friends and family, so you have to schedule things. I will try to catch up some 2morrow night. You're the best!!

Much Love And Many Blessings!!

Michael
 

Stuu

New member
Dear Stuu,

I'm not just a Christian, but one who has studied for 42 years with God as my teacher. I know A LOT!! You shortchange me quite a bit and you don't realize it. I also have studied some science, and there are things I believe and things that I don't agree with. I've also studied chemistry and learned a lot from that indeed!! I've learned tons of stuff in my lifetime, especially being schooled by the Lord, the angels, visions, visits from the Holy Ghost, school teachers, pastors. I've been to a Catholic Church a number of times and they are not for me. There is too much ritual and not enough joyful love of Jesus and God!! Just splash some water on your face and baptize yourself. I don't think so.

I am a person/Christian who has learned A LOT about God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, angels, etc. and Theology. I could believe in natural selection, if I wanted to. You do see how cats who are of the same mother and father reproduce kittens with 6 or 7 toes, and other characteristics, like only 3 legs, one eye blind, etc. I can't say that a cat with 7 toes is less fit than one with 5. I would think having a few more claws would help in a cat fight. Anyway, I do believe in the survival of the fittest under certain circumstances, but I believe that God rules over it. That's how I see it.

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael
I think you have just confirmed my argument. You don't like evolution by natural selection, even though it is true, because you would rather believe something that fits with other things you like to believe are true.

On the subject of the Catholic church, I'm not sure if you have heard of the case of Edgardo Mortara who was a Jewish boy taken from his parents after a domestic servant baptised him thinking he was mortally sick. Canon law in the papal states of the 19th Century said that a christian child could not be raised by non-christians, even if they were the parents. And Edgardo was now officially a Catholic. A splash of water went a long way, obviously! And I think that Canon law is still in place in the Catholic church to this day.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Don't you know that Uzzah died only to go to Heaven, a better situation by far. He was a necessary casualty and it is very likely that God wanted to take him to paradise instead.
That's the kind of thing that the many evil dictators say.

But thanks for your opinion on what your god thinks. Does it approve of you guessing its motives?

Couldn't you argue that Uzzah will end up in the lake of fire for directly defying your god?

Stuart
 

alwight

New member
I'd say that is because you and your fellow creationists have an a priori disbelief that, even with or without God, life is driven entirely by only natural forces.
You apparently cannot accept that supernatural or miraculous deeds are not actually actively involved.
Perhaps your faith is not particularly strong since you seem to need to find an ongoing role for the miraculous and supernatural everywhere?
Life just getting on with it, evolving entirely naturally, is perhaps a little worrying for you and your belief in God?
I don't believe creationists are any more "a priori" in their beliefs than evolutionists are.
Sure they are, they believe YEC stuff a priori because that is what Genesis, read literally, tells them. Genesis is for the YEC the absolute and literal inerrant word of God and it matters not what else may be true allegorically, metaphorically or indeed what scientific reality may suggest. Genesis is believed in literally a priori, without doubt.
Your everyday "evolutionist" otoh has no particular prior investment in Darwinian evolution, if what it says seems to describe the evidence then it's a secondary thing to believe it, if indeed it seems convincing. I at least certainly didn't begin with an unshakeable belief in Darwinian evolution, it is simply something that makes more and more sense to me with the greater knowledge I acquire.

Creationists "a priori" see God's hand in everything, and any science which comes along, we say "Cool, God, you made all this possible - How great thou art".

Evolutionists "a priori" have excluded God's hand from everything, and any science which comes along, they say "Cool, gods of Dumb Luck, you made all this possible - How great thou art".
The first sentence is rather supportive of what I say above.
The second sentence however is hogwash and you know it. Darwinian evolution in a natural world and gods can co-exist quite happily for many people, if not particularly for me.
If God knew that by lighting that blue touch paper that a particular chain of events would enfold naturally, without constant tweaking and micromanaging, then for me that is more to His glory and power than of a god taken by surprise at every turn and having to fiddle with it.
If indeed God is constantly micromanaging events then for me we are little more than His ant-farm to which can be inflicted disasters or given good things at a whim. That in my mind would make your God even more culpable for all the bad things that happen to good people than He already would be, if I believed in God.

Every new wonder I discover evokes emotions of awe and gratitude towards Him for having the brains to think this all out, and the power to execute His will.
I can't say I share the same euphoria and ecstasy for God as you do, my own feelings are perhaps rather more subdued. Perhaps you are one of those who likes to wave your hands in the air when singing songs of praise while looking blissfully upwards? :rolleyes:

I lived with an evolutionist father who would see the same magnificent facts, and it would lead to smugness and independence. "Yes, we humans are figuring this all out, and soon there will be nothing that we cannot control". It's like every new bit of science discovered made him feel more like a god.
It seems to me that understanding where once there was ignorance is uplifting certainly but it might just be that each time it happens God has that much less space (gaps) which is perhaps something you don't particularly like? A little bit less God?

I have noticed a tendency among very capable people to not need God. The smart, the rich, those with their lives under complete control - now why would they need God? What more can He add to their already perfect existence?

That's why the broken, the poor, the addicts are crowding into the kingdom of heaven. Like Christ said, "The first shall be last".
I don't claim to know who gets to go to heaven if anyone, and I suggest neither do you. But you can dream, so be my guest dream away.

As long as you can convince yourself that God is micromanaging every part of life then that must be very reassuring to you? :plain:

I think you are onto something here. Through God, the broken, the poor, the addicts finally feel that God is now in charge of their previously chaotic lives, and it IS very reassuring for us.

And God has the power to make the dumb smart. What He refuses to do is make a being with free will devoted to Him.
That neatly sums up a very likely delusion imo, something rather similar happens if certain mind altering drugs are administered.
When I am told the specific powers God has and what He wants and knows then I begin to think that I'm only seeing what you need, your own neediness iow.
 

iouae

Well-known member
When I am told the specific powers God has and what He wants and knows then I begin to think that I'm only seeing what you need, your own neediness iow.

The neediness with which you approach Christ will determine what you come away with.

2000 years ago there were those who came to criticise (Scribes, Pharisees) and they came away critical.

There were those keen to see a miracle (Herod) and were shown nothing.

A woman with an issue of blood for 15 years came desperate to touch Him and came away healed.

One man with a demon-possessed son came wondering IF Christ could do anything and Christ told him IF he could believe all things were possible. (Mark 9:22-24).

Your experience of Christ will depend on your attitude in approaching Him. There must have been many of Christ's day who did not bother to even go see Him.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Creationists see every structure, chemical pathway, adaptation as something God put there in the organism. This is totally reasonable to us.

Does that include the biological structures and biochemical pathways that allow pathogens, parasites, and a host of other nasty things to make us suffer and/or kill us?

You believe God deliberately and intentionally made them that way?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Does that include the biological structures and biochemical pathways that allow pathogens, parasites, and a host of other nasty things to make us suffer and/or kill us?

You believe God deliberately and intentionally made them that way?

No, Jose. Remember, Adam's sin caused all of those things. Before that, nothing ever died and everything kept having babies and somehow the Earth sustained unlimited growth.

#science
 

Jose Fly

New member
No, Jose. Remember, Adam's sin caused all of those things. Before that, nothing ever died and everything kept having babies and somehow the Earth sustained unlimited growth.

#science

Well, we'll see. A few creationists here have said that they believe God deliberately designed pathogens with the ability to cause disease, make us suffer, and kill us. Iouae said "every structure, chemical pathway", so let's see what he has to say.
 

alwight

New member
The neediness with which you approach Christ will determine what you come away with.

2000 years ago there were those who came to criticise (Scribes, Pharisees) and they came away critical.

There were those keen to see a miracle (Herod) and were shown nothing.

A woman with an issue of blood for 15 years came desperate to touch Him and came away healed.

One man with a demon-possessed son came wondering IF Christ could do anything and Christ told him IF he could believe all things were possible. (Mark 9:22-24).

Your experience of Christ will depend on your attitude in approaching Him. There must have been many of Christ's day who did not bother to even go see Him.
Thing is, it seems rather odd to me that you are very happy to accept some scriptural hearsay from 2000 years ago from a probably very keen anonymous evangelist, not actually Jesus at all, as reasonable but yet wave away Darwinian evolution and all its science and evidence as if it were obviously irrational. I have my own opinion on your rationality here btw.
;)
 
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