Creation vs. Evolution

[MichaelCadry]

Do you really think it is beyond His power to create whatever written documentation you need to think there really was 7 inches of snow years before last Thursday? But I understand, He just doesn’t do things like that to YOU. For decades now, as scientists in a variety of fields have studied the earth and the skies, God has had His big joke misleading THEM into thinking the earth was ancient, but He doesn’t do that with you, eh? What a good buddy God you worship, who plays jokes on thousands of scientists, but never on you.

Dear Davis,

He lets man believe all kinds of things, whatever a man can possibly imagine, he lets the man do that. And all of the lies finally get proven wrong, and some have yet to be proven wrong, as you will see with what happens in the very near future. So now you know how it works. He lets 2/3's of the world, or more, disbelieve that He even exists, then He's going to 'surprise' them, to say the least. It's going to be quite a rude awakening. You can check it out with everyone else. Have fun!!

Michael

 

[Interplanner]

This post is for 6days on 'ekpalai.' 2 Pet 3 says that the heavens existed (middle voice) 'ekpalai' a long time ago. But then he says that the earth was formed out of water and through water. This is a more recent action which is grouped with the flood and its water. You already have material there when you form something.

6days thinks that 'ekpalai' is not so old because of a separate kind of context like 2 Pet 2:3: the judgement of bogus teachers has been waiting a long time.

Peter then says that way back some time a mass of angels revolted and have been imprisoned since their defection. That happened 'ekpalai.'

Some time later, the ancient world, meaning the world of Noah, was judged. the vocab used there is 'archaiou.' That is as old as earth gets in the vocab of people writing in the NT. When they wanted to speak of anything older than that, they went to 'ekpalai.' In that time period were things as old as Tartarus which was the Greek subterranean world, or one of the dark masses in the night sky. Either way they were horrible places of torment even though they were waiting places. The Titans were confined there, said the Greeks. My interest is to show that 'ekpalai' was clearly before human and earth history as we know them from Adam to Noah.

Like 2 Pet 3, 'ekpalai' is again distinguished from that ancient world, and is back before it. (There may even be some connection that made the earth 'formless and void.') But there is nothing in these texts that says that the dark phase of earth or the constricting of the evil angels is close in time to this world--this ancient world which goes from Adam to Noah. From the wording here, those things may be way back there in time.

The fact that Peter would incorporate such terms (from the Greek scheme) shows that the suddenness and unrelatedness of earth to anything before, as 6days does, is out of the question. The scheme Peter was using, twice, was that there was an old universe, but the earth was recently made for God's reign among mankind.

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear Davis,

He lets man believe all kinds of things, whatever a man can possibly imagine, he lets the man do that. And all of the lies finally get proven wrong, and some have yet to be proven wrong, as you will see with what happens in the very near future. ...

Michael

Maybe then, Michael, this is more serious than you realized. You speak of the lies being proven wrong. The trouble is, Michael, the scientists are not engaged in the business of lies. They honestly try to understand how the universe works. If they study, analyze, and then decide the best way to run an experiment – say about how old the earth is- and the answer says “very old”, then where is the deceit? It is not on the part of the scientists. If the answer they got is wrong, then the only other entity that might have been involved is - God Himself. If there is a lie somewhere, and that was not on the part of the scientists, then who must be the one that is being false? Is your God playing a joke on the scientists, or is it more serious – deliberate deception?

Or, Michael, just maybe neither the scientists nor God are being deceitful, and indeed the answer the scientists got is correct. Think about it, Michael, is your God lying to the scientists?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Hi Michael,
It seems to me that the last thing you need to worry about when you are sick is how much is treatment going to cost. As much as I admire so much about the USA healthcare isn't one of them. I know that if you can afford and did pay for full cover health insurance that the very best medical treatment is available, but so many American people seem to find themselves in trouble because of insurance shortfalls.
If anything I'm right of centre politically here in the UK but in the US I'm clearly a lefty liberal. If medical treatment is needed it shouldn't be denied or restricted.lain:
If you have no way to pay for the treatment you need and there is no alternative then I really don't know what to say, I'm just glad that it isn't how it is here in the UK, even if I don't particularly like the government running our lives and paying extra taxes for it.
I really hope you'll get some better news soon Michael, though I won't be holding my breath.

Dear alwight,

Thank you so very much for your welcome care and concern about my health and predicament. That's what is so special about you. You are down to earth, definitely, even if we do believe differently on some things. Yep, the cancer could have spread to different parts of my body, and they would charge me the a double or triple amount to have it done in one place or in many places. I would have to pay $6,000 for each place that it is in. I surely can't afford $12,000 if it is in my prostate area or in my lung. I don't care about it. Whatever. It's just asinine. It is wonderful that you have such wonderful health coverage. Incredible and awesome. My health care sucks. I don't have good dental coverage either. How about you?? Probably have to pay for that, eh? I need some work done on mine. Oh well. It is what it is, I guess. You're the best and don't forget it, dude!!

Warmest Blessings And Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

:thumb: :guitar: :singer: :cloud9: :angel: :angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

He only plays jokes on people who do not accept Genesis as a literal. historical and scientifically accurate account of origins. You see if you stick to that "fundamental" assumption then you cannot be fooled.

:chuckle:

Dear noguru,

You're too funny!! Are you suggesting that the rendition of the Creation is found lacking? Why would it be written in there that way to confuse believers? I mean, you could believe that, but it's also quite unlikely also. I can accept either way. But I want to hear it from God, not from man. So that is my predicament. If Moses said that the Creation took six days, then who am I to dare judge him, or face a great embarrassment and a possible detriment to my welfare not being able to be closest as I can to God and Jesus. I love them so very much that I want to be as close to them physically as I can be. I must be. God make it true, somehow. You're a good person and I know we can't believe in the same things sometimes. I still love you from what I know about you. I see you on Facebook also. That is how I know what you look like and I know what your real name is. No one will find out though, even if they tried to Google it. I won't ever forget you!!

God Bless The Things You Do In Life,

Michael

:thumb: :wave2: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel:

 

[alwight]

Hi Michael,
You make me so sad, I would pray for you if I thought there would be any point.

 

[Interplanner]

Dear Davis,

He lets man believe all kinds of things, whatever a man can possibly imagine, he lets the man do that. And all of the lies finally get proven wrong, and some have yet to be proven wrong, as you will see with what happens in the very near future. So now you know how it works. He lets 2/3's of the world, or more, disbelieve that He even exists, then He's going to 'surprise' them, to say the least. It's going to be quite a rude awakening. You can check it out with everyone else. Have fun!!

Michael

He doesn't create optical illusions about time though. I guess you're not reading the items on 2 Pet 2 and 3 on 'ekpalai' and 'tartarus.'

 

[MichaelCadry]

I finally found the original. Did you mean that the belief has it's source in choosing to have them and nothing but choice? What if the belief has several compelling items in favor and you choose to believe them while others don't? Like the trial in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD.

Dear Interplanner,

You do realize that there has been other instances of Genesis found besides the one we have. The same with other books of the Bible. Different parchments with the same words. Like the Dead Sea Scrolls, I believe. You do know what I am saying here, don't you?

Michael

:wave2: :thumb: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel:





Michael

:thumb: :wave2: :cloud9:

 

[6days]

Yes, God inspired men and Moses to write Gen 1. It is importantly to read things in the Bible as normal human communication as much as possible.

Read the Bible as normal human communication?
How about as divinely inspired?

You do not understand the Hebrew construction of the opening verses.

Actually, what you mean is that I disagree with how you compromise on the opening verses by suggesting it was not really 'the beginning'.

You don't understand that a scene is painted before any creative work is done in the sense of Gen 1's days.

Other creative work was done way before this.[/quote]
Nope... You are adding to God's Word.

Genesis 1:1 says "IN THE BEGINING..."

You want it to say 'In a beginning...'

You can find 'the beginning' a few other times in the OT, and it always refers to a singular one time beginning.
Genesis 1:1; Jeremiah 26:1; 27:1; 28:1; 49:34

What matters to the account of Genesis (because the Bible moves efficiently to tell how man is to be redeemed) is what pertains to man, not all the details we wish about the universe or 'formless and void'.

True... There is no need to add previous beginnings to God's Word.

You don't understand what 'formless and void' implies in its connection to other cosmologies and to Jer 4:23.

What I do understand is that you take scripture out of contect to try make your unbiblical ideas fit.

Jeremiah 4 is describing the coming destruction of Judah, not some unbiblical prehistoric destruction of a previous creation.

 

[patrick jane]

off subject, but what about the evolution of the human brain ? in the last hundred years alone the avg IQ has jumped over 30 points and climbing. shouldn't that take millions of years according to some science ?

how can evolution explain the intelligence and the human brain without God ? -

 

[Interplanner]

Read the Bible as normal human communication?
How about as divinely inspired?


Actually, what you mean is that I disagree with how you compromise on the opening verses by suggesting it was not really 'the beginning'.


Other creative work was done way before this.

Nope... You are adding to God's Word.

Genesis 1:1 says "IN THE BEGINING..."

You want it to say 'In a beginning...'

You can find 'the beginning' a few other times in the OT, and it always refers to a singular one time beginning.
Genesis 1:1; Jeremiah 26:1; 27:1; 28:1; 49:34


True... There is no need to add previous beginnings to God's Word.



What I do understand is that you take scripture out of contect to try make your unbiblical ideas fit.

Jeremiah 4 is describing the coming destruction of Judah, not some unbiblical prehistoric destruction of a previous creation.[/QUOTE]


[My response starts here; something wrong with the quote button]
Even if the opening line was not a section title like 2:4, 5:1, etc (I had a list of 10 in Genesis here one time), you are not speaking to the verb construction of the next line. That is why NEB for example has the earth was already, because a pre-existing (ie pre-creation) situation exists.

The Spirit of God hovers over things that are not right, not the way God wants them; otherwise it would be among them and act among them.

The place was also dark. We know from the NT what kinds of places are darkness! We know it is not something God wants. We know he wants light and wants life to thrive.

Note the similarity of that and Peter, twice. The evil angels were damned and the heavens existed 'ekpalai.' That's a while ago. It's so far back that it connects to 'tartarus' in Greek mythology (not that Greek myth is true, but the belief was there was considerable space between the damning of the Titans and human history). It is also part of the blackness. After that, then you get to the ancient earth, from Adam to Noah. That's 'archia'.

So you are way off, my friend, on timeframes in the Bible, including NT clarification of OT text. All this is a matter of being up to date on what is actually being said by the text, instead of preserving some ideas from the past generation on scant evidence.

re 'formless and void' you are really missing. I described how involved a story has to be before this expression is used. You would not use it to describe a irregular fragment that came floating by in space. You use it specifically because several other things happened there. Can't you hold a thought long enough to transfer complexity from Jer 4:23 back to Gen 1:2 where it was originally used? And then you go and say there was no fall of Judah back in Gen 1:2?

Could we take a little break from this and just run an alternative question? The Niagara falls. We know it has chiseled the sedimentary under lay for a precise number of years in the 9000s. We know this because of the regular collapse of the granite overlay that finally falls when over hanging too far. This happens every 100 feet or so, and has happened over and over. and that that is also when there are a number of indicators of the end of an ice age. Another is Lake Morse in Olympic National Park, WA. It's not that old of a date, and it's not hard to see the indicators.

Why do you think these things are "God's optical illusions"?

 

[6days]

You seriously need to get to know your Bible, sir. 2 pet 2:17: "Blackest darkness is reserved for them." Note that he already said angels who were evil were put in chains of darkness or gloomy dungeons.

"They are wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." Jude 13. Now in this case, you might have a marginal case for extended metaphor. But notice at the same time what the metaphor is: that they ancients already knew that celestial bodies went off into darkness

Interplanner.....
You keep adding to Gods Word things that are not there.

REMINDER... You said... "As I recall, the ancients believed in black holes and were terrified of them. In the ancient sky, not polluted by all the light we now have, they not only saw stars better, but they also saw darknesses better, and Jude and Peter (in God's Word) said that those places were places of judgement, confinement, imprisonment"

"Blackest darkness reserved for them" from 2Peter says nothing about black holes in the universe. False teachers will experience eternal separation from God.

Likewise Jude 13 does not tell us that Black holes in space are "places of judgement, confinement, imprisonment". We are also told in scripture these people are destined for for “everlasting fire” and the lake of fire. We don't know where this darkness and eternal fire is... We do know you insert unbiblical ideas into God's Word.

 

[Interplanner]

off subject, but what about the evolution of the human brain ? in the last hundred years alone the avg IQ has jumped over 30 points and climbing. shouldn't that take millions of years according to some science ?

how can evolution explain the intelligence and the human brain without God ? -

Good question, but there is more evidence than that. There is an abrupt appearance of man doing history, tools, records, art, etc all together in the range of 20-15,000 years back. That's a more telltale indicator than a recent IQ change.

 

[Interplanner]

Interplanner.....
You keep adding to Gods Word things that are not there.

REMINDER... You said... "As I recall, the ancients believed in black holes and were terrified of them. In the ancient sky, not polluted by all the light we now have, they not only saw stars better, but they also saw darknesses better, and Jude and Peter (in God's Word) said that those places were places of judgement, confinement, imprisonment"

"Blackest darkness reserved for them" from 2Peter says nothing about black holes in the universe. False teachers will experience eternal separation from God.

Likewise Jude 13 does not tell us that Black holes in space are "places of judgement, confinement, imprisonment". We are also told in scripture these people are destined for for “everlasting fire” and the lake of fire. We don't know where this darkness and eternal fire is... We do know you insert unbiblical ideas into God's Word.

So now we are to ask you how God executes judgement or holding places? Give me a break. Read the material and you'll see again what the purpose of those places was. A judgement was rendered, they were imprisoned (the word in Peter is actually the chains of a dark dungeon, cut down to 'chains of darkness'), confined, and to do so is a punishment. You are simply not coherent with your Bible usage.

 

[Interplanner]

When ancients saw meteors they put it together with the darkness areas that they saw and believed that stars (thought to be angels) had burned out. Burned out material is black, like in your campfire. Thus those dark places were where those beings had ended up.

 

[6days]

off subject, but what about the evolution of the human brain ? in the last hundred years alone the avg IQ has jumped over 30 points and climbing. shouldn't that take millions of years according to some science ?

how can evolution explain the intelligence and the human brain without God ? -

From scripture, it would make sense that God created Adam with extreme intelligence...and that over the course of the past 6,000 years our brains have diminished capacity. The change in IQ over the past 100 would be a result of nutrition and other factors.

Every since sin entered the world, humans have increasingly become weaker as mutations pile up in our genes. Where as we were created perfect, we now have thousands of diseases we are subject to. Increasingly, humans are becoming more susceptible to allergies and sickness. And now scientists tell us that our brains have shrunk by 10%. This article tells us that "Surprisingly, based on skull measurements, the human brain appears to have been shrinking over the last 5,000 or so years."
http://www.livescience.com/history/091113-origins-evolving.html

 

[6days]

There is an abrupt appearance of man doing history, tools, records, art, etc all together in the range of 20-15,000 years back. That's a more telltale indicator than a recent IQ change.

You keep trying to add time into scripture.
We have about 4000 years of genealogies between first Adam and Last Adam.

 

[patrick jane]

From scripture, it would make sense that God created Adam with extreme intelligence...and that over the course of the past 6,000 years our brains have diminished capacity. The change in IQ over the past 100 would be a result of nutrition and other factors.

Every since sin entered the world, humans have increasingly become weaker as mutations pile up in our genes. Where as we were created perfect, we now have thousands of diseases we are subject to. Increasingly, humans are becoming more susceptible to allergies and sickness. And now scientists tell us that our brains have shrunk by 10%. This article tells us that "Surprisingly, based on skull measurements, the human brain appears to have been shrinking over the last 5,000 or so years."
http://www.livescience.com/history/091113-origins-evolving.html

so, you think we are all getting dumber ? - :thumb:

 

[6days]

So now we are to ask you how God executes judgement or holding places?....

All we can know is what God tells us. You add to God's Word telling us that black holes in space are for "judgement or holding places." Scripture does not tell us that.

You are a false teacher.

 

[6days]

so, you think we are all getting dumber ? - :thumb:

Yes
I do think modern humans have less intelligence than Adam and the first humans.
Quite possibly, Neandertals were also smarter than us, as they did have slightly bigger brains than us. Brain size alone does not confirm they were more intelligent, but its quite possible they were--contrary to the dim witted image evolutionists often used