Creation vs. Evolution

[MichaelCadry]

Stroebel writes that the force of gravity is so precise that we should imagine a tape measure across our galaxy. Then find the inch mark measuring how strong the force of gravity is. If the force was changed one inch on the tape, either way, it would be a disaster. The vastness of the universe is amazing but the precision of God's creation is chilling.

"Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens..." Haggai 2:6. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken... Heb 13:27.

Dear Interplanner,

How awesome and quite scary!! Others don't seem to realize how finely tuned our Universe is. What a shame. Too many variables point to a God!! Not survival of the fittest. Some just don't get it. I think that God gives people to believe in Him or not. That way people have a choice and aren't forced to believe in Him. You would think people would err on the safe side and believe in Him. Better to believe and be accepted into Heaven than not to believe and being sorry about that choice. I love God and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost so very much, it is awesome. God is my Father, and Jesus is my brother and Savior. And the Holy Spirit has helped me out a few times, granting me some very important things. Thanks for your input and post!!

Michael

:cheers: :guitar: :singer: :angel:

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

I find that you have some very interesting points to make in your deductions about why God could not exist or be the miracle worker in all of the Universe and Earth's existence.

But I don't argue that God doesn't exist Michael, I am only saying that rational scientific explanations are typically available and that there is no reason to suppose a supernatural entity did it.

Oh, I wish you could believe what you don't. You don't know what you are missing out on. You are defying God and that is dangerous. I wouldn't want to trade places with you at all. You have so much negative dogma in your brain and heart. It's too bad that is the case. You're missing out on the glory of God's existence and His creating the Universe and all that is in it.

I can't help what you are so keen to believe Michael, but I think that what you believe and material reality are in all probability two different things.

You actually think it just popped out of thin air or created itself. How you could think this is considerably highly improbable. Where do you come up with these things, when I know that you do it because you just simply don't want to believe in the truth, but instead all lies from the devil, Satan. He's got you wrapped around his finger and has your thinking all warped out and sad. You know that I love you, so I'm not trying to lose your close friendship. It's just that we disagree on some points. You should spend as much time believing in God as you do denying His Existence instead of the other way around. What do you think He is going to say to you when you face Him? He will turn you away just like you've turned Him away for most of your life. Right? Safer it is if a man goes ahead and believes in God than a man not believing in God. One way doesn't make God angry and upset at you, and the other way does. Pick the easiest answer to be careful. Don't be so unwise.

Tons Of Love And Respect Coming Your Way, Mate!!

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

All I've ever said here is that the universe seems to originate from a singularity, it's those like you who seem to believe that fully formed creatures appeared from nowhere. I have never claimed to know that gods don't exist or that the big bang disproves God. I simply consider what facts and evidence seem to show, which isn't that it all began 6000 years ago magically.
I am quite sure that Satan isn't any more a part of my life than God is Michael or for that matter Zeus or Odin.

 

[DavisBJ]

… You are arguing that both good and bad design are evidence for common ancestry. Your belief is like a fog that can cover any landscape.

Someday, maybe even before both of us die, I hope to see you accurately portray what evolutionists actually believe. Probably a vain hope.

Let me say what you just claimed about the way evolutionists look at design, in a few more words: “Look at this creature. It has poor design, and that shows it had common ancestry. And that one over there has good design, and that shows it had common ancestry.”

Good design and bad design are not, in themselves, evidence for common ancestry. Science believes that evolution is simply the mechanism by which life forms diversified. If it is good design, do we believe that common ancestry is therefore responsible? No. If it is bad design, do we believe that common ancestry is therefore responsible? No.

Now let’s leave the creationists’ silly dishonest caricatures behind, and ask what real scientists say about evolution and design. We believe the diversity of life we see came about via evolution, and thus evolution must be the explanation for whatever design we see in life, whether that is good design or bad design. We do not see good design and say, this proves evolution, but we do say that evolution must have somehow led to what we see.

You seem think that evolution being offered as an explanatory mechanism for both good and bad design somehow disproves evolution. I know engineers who designed some pretty clever machines. And those same engineers blew it on some other designs that absolutely failed. Is it possible for good design and bad design to come from the same engineers? Nah, that can’t be, I guess they don’t really exist. Great logic you have there, 6days.

 

[rstrats]

MichaelCadry,
re: "Safer it is if a man goes ahead and believes in God than a man not believing in God."

The problem is, however, that it isn't possible for a person to consciously choose to believe things.

 

[Interplanner]

MichaelCadry,
re: "Safer it is if a man goes ahead and believes in God than a man not believing in God."

The problem is, however, that it isn't possible for a person to consciously choose to believe things.

Whoa, what does that mean?

 

[Interplanner]

I hope that some of you have digested what Lewis asked when he told his scientist pal that all the scientists were looking at was Nature, and to say that that is the only thing out there is artificial and misleading when one tries to form a true view of the world. At issue is whether the universe is a closed system or is open to being reorder or interacted with by its Creator.

He goes on to the repeating coin illustration:

"Supposed you put a nickel in your desk's top drawer one day. The next day you do the same thing--another nickel. You plan to do this daily. Do the laws of arithmetic make it certain you'll find a 3rd one the day after?"
"Of course," said the friend, "provided no one's been tampering with your drawer."
"Ah but that's the whole point" said I. "The laws of arithmetic can tell you what you'll find, with absolute certainty, [I]provided that[/I] there's no interference. If a thief has been at the drawer, of course you'll get a different result. But the thief won't have broken the laws of arithmetic--only the laws of the land. Now, aren't the laws of Nature much in the same boat? Don't they all tell you what will happen [I]provided[/I] there's no interference?"
"How do you mean?"
"Well the laws will tell you how a billiard ball will travel on a smooth surface...but not if someone comes along and bumps it."
"No of course not. A scientist can't allow for monkey-tricks like that."
"Quite. And in the same way, if there was anything outside Nature, and if it interfered, the events which the scientist expected wouldn't follow. That would be what we call a miracle... It's not the expert at mathematics who can tell you how likely someone is to interfere with the coins in your drawer; a detective would be more use. The physicist can't tell you if I'm likely to bump your moving billiard ball; a psychologist would be better..."

If the presupposition of naturalistic uniformitarianism is wrong, we have to ask other people. Is this why scientists are so guardedly against any other kind of information that does not conform to a closed system?

 

[Interplanner]

And so in Genesis, we have a person writing that the earth was formless and void for an unspecified period and then more recently formed to conditions that are intelligible to us now. He says it resulted in all the animals that we now know are here. He mentions a greenhouse condition for a few thousand years and then the end of that, and we find those things in the evidence. He mentions 4 rivers in the Euphrates area, and people know where they are. He mentions the same of being naked and the use of clothing. He mentions gold and other precious metals here and there. His writing is reality based; he is not trying to fool us, even if he might be considered primitive. (By comparison with native Americans describing a raft that survived a major flood, he is quite advanced and technically specific).

So why, then, other than presuppositions, would we think that he is saying all this to mislead us? We can rule out that he is on drugs pretty easily. We can rule out that he intended to write fantasy. It would, in a sense, be so much easier if he had not mentioned some pesky little things: hard, graphic details about the very objects he is saying were real in space and time in a way that first-hand observers would. Then there would just be "theology" and we could blow it off the page like dust.

 

[rstrats]

Interplanner,
re: "Whoa, what does that mean?"

Merely that beliefs - convictions that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true - cannot be engendered by simply consciously choosing to have them.

 

[MichaelCadry]

If your universe is only 6000 years old, explain red light shift.

Dear seehigh,

I don't agree with red light shift. It isn't sound/realistic to me.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I have a specific point to make. It is vast and younger than we think! Who is to say that God did not make it all last Thursday at noon?? God can do it! Of course!! I don't know why He would make the cattle and chickens on the same day as the Universe or Earth, or fish, or ravens, crows, blackbirds, bluebirds, cardinals, etc. I could go on and on. Do you think Abraham Lincoln actually existed? Why, it was trivially easy for God to create all the old history books as though history really happened, and to create a place called Gettysburg, with pretend evidence of a great Civil War battle, and even implant false memories in old people about things that happened two weeks ago. Are you so silly you really think you once lived in New York City? Do you doubt the power of God to make you think that, when he actually created you a week ago? Do you realize that one way or another, none of us could be here without His exact words speaking everything into place?? Isn't it cool?!!

Dear Davis,

There you go, not making any sense at all again. Of course, I wasn't created a week ago. And yes, I did used to live in New York City. You can ask my bosses, Annette and George, how good of an employee I was. You don't know that half of it, to be honest. You aren't making a good comparison whatsoever. Try again.

Michael

 

[Interplanner]

Interplanner,
re: "Whoa, what does that mean?"

Merely that beliefs - convictions that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true - cannot be engendered by simply consciously choosing to have them.

Engendered?

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear Davis,

There you go, not making any sense at all again. Of course, I wasn't created a week ago. And yes, I did used to live in New York City. You can ask my bosses, Annette and George, how good of an employee I was. You don't know that half of it, to be honest. You aren't making a good comparison whatsoever. Try again.

Michael

Michael, Michael, you tell us of all the astounding things God does, and then you turn right around and deny that he could implant memories in your mind, memories of places you never actually lived? Come on now, be realistic, if He can zap the universe into existence, altering a few neural connections in your brain is trivial. Not only your brain, but those people you thought were your bosses at one time, the letters you have from way back then, and even implanted a memory of a 7 inch snowfall years ago. You seem to think He has already faked the results of thousands of scientific studies that indicated the earth is ancient, but you know that is just God playing with the scientists.

 

[MichaelCadry]

MichaelCadry,
re: "Safer it is if a man goes ahead and believes in God than a man not believing in God."

The problem is, however, that it isn't possible for a person to consciously choose to believe things.

Dear rstrats,

I know it was a stupid analogy which makes no sense. You can't always choose what you believe in at all. Sorry about that!

Michael

:cheers: :guitar: :singer:

 

[6days]

And so in Genesis, we have a person writing

Moses?
Inspired by God?

that the earth was formless and void for an unspecified period

Nope... God tells us this...
Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." . And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day

Notice God tells us the period of time... Continue reading Genesis to see what God does the following days.

He mentions a greenhouse condition for a few thousand years

You are adding to God's Word.

he (God?)is not trying to fool us,

But it seems you are trying to fool everyone with your additions to scripture.

We can rule out that he(God?) is on drugs pretty easily.

God wasn't on drugs as He inspired scripture?

We can rule out that he (God?)intended to write fantasy.

Do you think God now breathes a sigh of relief that you give him a pass on fiction?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, Michael, you tell us of all the astounding things God does, and then you turn right around and deny that he could implant memories in your mind, memories of places you never actually lived? Come on now, be realistic, if He can zap the universe into existence, altering a few neural connections in your brain is trivial. Not only your brain, but those people you thought were your bosses at one time, the letters you have from way back then, and even implanted a memory of a 7 inch snowfall years ago. You seem to think He has already faked the results of thousands of scientific studies that indicated the earth is ancient, but you know that is just God playing with the scientists.

Dear Davis,

Yes, God could implant those ideas in my brain unfounded, but He doesn't choose to do things like that. I'm being realistic in saying that I actually worked in ABC-TV and I have written proof of the 7 inches of snow that fell on the Daily News reporter's building so he would know that God was with me. So, having written proof sure makes it all different, eh BJ?

Michael

:rain: :down: :toad:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Alwight,

Hope you're doing well 2nite! Is it morning there where you're at? It's late here. I wanted to drive my car 2day, so I went to Petsmart and bought some frozen food for my fish. They're going to love it in the a.m. Oh well, sorry to go off topic again. I get tired of worrying about it. If the Bible can talk about Jesus making wine, then surely I can have 3 glasses of it! Just kidding. I haven't drank wine for a long, long time. Oh, did I tell you, they found a nodule in my right lung where the pain was and I have to get further pulmonary tests done. I thought I had told everyone here, but I guess I decided earlier to keep quiet about it. If the cancer has spread to my lungs, then it's probably elsewhere in my body too, like my liver, etc. It's already in my prostate area. I have to spend $6,000 for each area that they do radiation on. So looks like that option is out. It could be in my kidneys too. Even my Dad got bone and lung cancer after they found the cancer in his prostate. He lived til he was 83. Oh well, I'd best get going for now. I think the world of you!!

Cheerio, Mate!!

Michael

 

[rstrats]

Interplanner.
re: "Engendered?"

Yes. Any particular reason for asking?

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear Davis,

Yes, God could implant those ideas in my brain unfounded, but He doesn't choose to do things like that. I'm being realistic in saying that I actually worked in ABC-TV and I have written proof of the 7 inches of snow that fell on the Daily News reporter's building so he would know that God was with me. So, having written proof sure makes it all different, eh BJ?

Michael

:rain: :down: :toad:

Do you really think it is beyond His power to create whatever written documentation you need to think there really was 7 inches of snow years before last Thursday? But I understand, He just doesn’t do things like that to YOU. For decades now, as scientists in a variety of fields have studied the earth and the skies, God has had His big joke misleading THEM into thinking the earth was ancient, but He doesn’t do that with you, eh? What a good buddy God you worship, who plays jokes on thousands of scientists, but never on you.

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Hope you're doing well 2nite! Is it morning there where you're at? It's late here. I wanted to drive my car 2day, so I went to Petsmart and bought some frozen food for my fish. They're going to love it in the a.m. Oh well, sorry to go off topic again. I get tired of worrying about it. If the Bible can talk about Jesus making wine, then surely I can have 3 glasses of it! Just kidding. I haven't drank wine for a long, long time. Oh, did I tell you, they found a nodule in my right lung where the pain was and I have to get further pulmonary tests done. I thought I had told everyone here, but I guess I decided earlier to keep quiet about it. If the cancer has spread to my lungs, then it's probably elsewhere in my body too, like my liver, etc. It's already in my prostate area. I have to spend $6,000 for each area that they do radiation on. So looks like that option is out. It could be in my kidneys too. Even my Dad got bone and lung cancer after they found the cancer in his prostate. He lived til he was 83. Oh well, I'd best get going for now. I think the world of you!!

Cheerio, Mate!!

Michael

Hi Michael,
It seems to me that the last thing you need to worry about when you are sick is how much is treatment going to cost. As much as I admire so much about the USA healthcare isn't one of them. I know that if you can afford and did pay for full cover health insurance that the very best medical treatment is available, but so many American people seem to find themselves in trouble because of insurance shortfalls.
If anything I'm right of centre politically here in the UK but in the US I'm clearly a lefty liberal. If medical treatment is needed it shouldn't be denied or restricted.lain:
If you have no way to pay for the treatment you need and there is no alternative then I really don't know what to say, I'm just glad that it isn't how it is here in the UK, even if I don't particularly like the government running our lives and paying extra taxes for it.
I really hope you'll get some better news soon Michael, though I won't be holding my breath.

 

[noguru]

Do you really think it is beyond His power to create whatever written documentation you need to think there really was 7 inches of snow years before last Thursday? But I understand, He just doesn’t do things like that to YOU. For decades now, as scientists in a variety of fields have studied the earth and the skies, God has had His big joke misleading THEM into thinking the earth was ancient, but He doesn’t do that with you, eh? What a good buddy God you worship, who plays jokes on thousands of scientists, but never on you.

He only plays jokes on people who do not accept Genesis as a literal. historical and scientifically accurate account of origins. You see if you stick to that "fundamental" assumption then you cannot be fooled.

:chuckle: