Creation vs. Evolution

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DavisBJ

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Dave Miller, Ph.D. "You’ve experienced goose bumps. When you have gotten cold, you’ve noticed bumps rise on your arms (or even your legs, neck, and other areas of the skin that have hair). Evolutionists continue to claim that goose bumps are leftover from our evolutionary ancestors. That’s silly. Everything about your body was designed by God. The different parts of your body serve important purposes as God intended.

"Goose bumps get their name from bumps that can be seen on a goose when its feathers are plucked. Goose bumps happen when tiny muscles at the base of each hair follicle contract and force the hair to stand up. These muscles are called erector pili [ih-RECK-ter PIE-lie] muscles. Isn’t it amazing that this happens without you thinking about it? God made them to work whether you think about them or not.

Above, it would be preferable to present the biological explanation free of the accompanying Christian preaching. Thousands of Medical schools have no problem teaching biology free of religious indoctrination.
"But why do we get goose bumps? Consider two reasons. First, goose bumps occur when we get cold. The muscles that contract cause the skin to “bunch up,” forming little bumps that cause your hairs to stand up straight. In addition to the muscle tension, the rising hair forms a layer that traps air between the hairs and skin, creating insulation and warmth. This amazing way for the body to preserve its own heat, reducing heat loss <non-biological religious preaching deleted here.>
In reading this over, my first thought was that this is just about the same thing that Kdall said. So backtracking in the thread, I need to apologize, because I think I failed to pick up on what you were getting at when I asked for clarification earlier. Your objection is not that “hairy ancestors” benefitted from goosebumps increasing the insulation effect, nor that the same happens with us. Your point was simply a disavowal that the “hairy ancestors” were in fact, ancestors at all to humans. In other words, again you are not addressing the biology of goosebumps, but simply pre-emptively refusing to even consider that goosebumps could be a biologically inherited trait that was passed on in the process of evolution. Boy, it would really help if you would be explicit when you are not arguing science at all, but simply inserting religious dogma into the logic as though it was science.
:) Loss of genetic information is the Biblical model.
So your example of blind fish fits.
But can you show, restricting the discussion to the process of eyes going from fully functional to vestigial, why the creationist model would be better than the evolutionary explanation?
 

MichaelCadry

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It would be better if creationists spent their effort on presuppositions instead of the mechanics of evolution. It is the presuppositions that matter most in the final analysis. Time + chance + matter made all this? Not a chance.

The astrophycists Gonzales and ____ made the doc THE PRIVILEGED PLANET to show the extreme improbabilities of some 20 features of life on earth. It is far too designed. The privilege was not to sit around and say there is no significance year in and out. It was to say wow, not only are these features amazing but they allow us to view the Creator's plan and design. The two scientists were essentially converted upon witnessing the 1996 solar eclipse in India.


Dear Interplanner,

Thank you for having my back. Everything, the Universe and the Earth, and other galaxies ALL point to a Creator, our God. Pity the man who strives with his Maker. It would be better that he was never upon the Earth. These are not my words either. But I don't mind quoting them.

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:
 

DavisBJ

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Dear Davis,

What Ham did to his father was not okay with Noah. Noah cursed his own son. God did not do it. See Gen. 9:5KJV. Ham/Canaan did something very embarrassing to Noah. Noah perceived it and cursed his son for doing it. God has lifted the curse, but only before these latter years. Don't look at me. Don't kill the messenger. I don't command these things. Ask Noah and God about it, BJ. It is Noah's doing.

May God Bless You For Asking,

Michael
Michael, I have seen few explanations presented to you (some of which were quite good) that seemed to sink in at all. Accordingly, I have decided that the ROI (return on investment – of my time and effort) in trying to respond to many of your posts is just too small. Sorry.
 

MichaelCadry

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Except for when you consider how many trillions of planets and moons are out there, you'd expect for the "perfect" conditions to arrive at at least a few of them totally naturally. That's not to say that God didn't have a helping hand, but odds indicate that it could be arisen without any supernatural assistance


Dear Kdall,

Just because there are supposedly "many other galaxies" doesn't mean there are or that they could be inhabited. They could be 'eye candy' for all you know, letting man believe there are other galaxies and imagining all kinds of things besides believing there is only One God and that He Created ALL of these things. God has allowed man to believe in evolution, so it's not like He's not letting us think whatever we want, even though it's a lie. Do you understand what I mean. Man can believe whatever he conjures up to believe.

No contest here.

Michael

:angrymob:
 

MichaelCadry

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They intuit that everything must be created but it never crosses their mind where this God came from.

But then, a lot of stuff science has shown us has been counter intuitive.


Dear Hedshaker,

You are walking into the trap that other men will fall in, whoever doesn't believe that God created this Universe. Place your heart in science or in God. The choice is your own. See what happens.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Wow, the whole universe groans because some mythical character apparently ate a bit of mythical fruit in a mythical garden on this insignificant blue speck. :noway:


Dear alwight,

Yes, way!! Not no-way. It has not been a myth on a blue speck. You shall see that in a couple months. It is getting to be a ripe time here for the nonbelievers. Interesting as all heck. Now, men denying there is no God because of that fact that he thinks he sees tons of other galaxies. It doesn't surprise me. Yeah for the believers and bless their lovely hearts!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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To be sure, a Fool is writing all that.


Dear Cross Reference,

Yes, you are right!! Hang in there. God has a Master Plan for the disbelievers. I don't call anyone a Fool. They just do not know how different they are, and not to their liking either. The fire is being stoked.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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As above "he correctly described what it does in animals." Note I also said that in humans it seems to have different function and nothing to do with a belief in hairy ancestors.


Evolution can't explain how eyes came into existence to begin with. Well.... slight correction...I have seen evolutionists attempt to explain it showing charts of critters with a light sensitive spot then various 'steps' to complex sophisticated vision. (Ignoring the HUGE amounts of genetic differences and the impossibility of mutations creating). *If you believe that...then your explanation makes sense. If you believe God created, and that sophisticated vision systems existed in the beginning, then the degenerated eyes fit with that belief.


Sorry... my bad.*
Yes your definition is fine for the word "usefull"

But I was referring to the word 'vestigial'.
If it's used implying common ancestry... then I disagree of course. *


Dear 6days,

You did fine!! Look at the blinder bottom-feeder fish. They don't have light down near the bottom of the lake or sea, so they don't need sophisticated eyes to see. Look at how some men cannot see because they are blind. That also applies to those who think they can see, but who actually can not, even though they have eyes like everyone else. Do you understand me here?

God Be With You And Your Loved Ones, Always!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Yes, so it was your God that created cancer right?


Dear seehigh,

If He created leprosy, and it is cured now, then He could still have created cancer, and then the cured of that. It is up to Him, not you. That's why I included the word 'If.'

Michael
 

6days

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I didn't have time to read and digest the actual work by Amichai Labin and Erez Ribak which I did find
Do try... a little more of what was said "The fundamental features of the array of glial cells are revealed as an optimal structure designed for preserving the acuity of images in the human retina. It plays a crucial role in vision quality, in humans and in other species.”
However there does seem to be some possibility that what is meant by "optimal" refers only to it being optimal for the way the eye is actually wired up, not that it is the optimal possible setup. Note it says "an" not "the" optimal structure.
Optimal
1. Describes a solution to a problem which minimises some cost function. Linear programming is one technique used to discover the optimal solution to certain problems.
2. Of code: best or most efficient in time, space or code size.

Or,
NY TIMES Science wrote:

the basic building blocks of human eyesight turn out to be practically perfect.

Photoreceptors operate at the outermost boundary allowed by the laws of physics, which means they are as good as they can be, period. Each one is designed to detect and respond to single photons of light — the smallest possible packages in which light comes wrapped.....



Also I've seen an argument that suggests that daytime colour vision is marginally improved by our current set up, but which comes with a loss of night vision, you pays your money you take your pick?
Then again some creatures with our type wired up eyes don't see colours anyway so....?:liberals:
Yes... optimal...best or most efficient.

Personally though I still think it's more than crystal clear and twenty-twenty that having a blind spot is definitely not optimal for an organ used to see with.:sherlock:
Well 'Sherlock'..... I think your blind spot is evidence that contradicts your beliefs. Ophthalmologist Marshal, mentioned earlier explains that the nerves could not go behind the eye, because the choroid takes that space. The chorid provides blood supply needed for the retinal pigment epithelium. This is necessary to regenerate the photoreceptors, and to absorb heat. So Marshal concludes it is necessary for the nerves to go in front instead. (Back to optimal design)

Ophthamologist, Peter W.V. Gurney wrote:
This article reviews the reasons for our having the inverted retina and why the opposite arrangement (the verted retina), in which the photoreceptors are innermost and the first layer to receive incident light, would be liable to fail in creatures who have inverted retinas. I suggest that the need for protection of the retina against the injurious effects of light, particularly with the shorter wavelengths, and of the heat generated by focused light necessitates the inverted configuration of the retina in creatures possessing it.

Of course if the optic nerve had connected at the rear of the retina instead then there would have been no blind spot, while also not discounting any optimising and tweaking that still could have been designed into the front of the retina by any extant competent intelligent designer worth His salt.
You have bought into Dawkins who does not understand the design of the eye. Science has demolished his argument. Newer research on the vertebrate retina shows that the inverted design in vertebrates is superior to the verted design, even compared to the most advanced cephalopods. The research has discovered that our retina has a neurological feedback system improving contrast and sharpening edges without sacrificing shadow detail.
PLoS Biology May 2011 A positive feedback synapse from retinal horizontal cells to cone photoreceptors. (S.L.Jackman)

Opthamologist Dr. H S Hamilton: "instead of being a great disadvantage, or a “curse” or being incorrectly constructed, the inverted retina is a tremendous advance in function and design compared with the simple and less complicated verted arrangement. One problem amongst many, for evolutionists, is to explain how this abrupt major retinal transformation from the verted type in invertebrates to the inverted vertebrate model came about as nothing in paleontology offers any support."

Alwight.... we have ten million cells in the retina of the eye are interacting with each other in complex ways, each like a computer, and this is just part of the processing involved in sight. We have a system of processing sight that is far superior to man made technologies. Our eyes are evidence of intelligent design... optimal technology....extreme intelligence....The God of the Bible.

"You have eyes--can't you see? You have ears--can't you hear?" Mark 8:18
 

MichaelCadry

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That's one thing I've often wondered. Fundamentalist Christians insist that Genesis is literal, factual history. So does that mean they actually believe the fate and function of the entire universe was altered because two H. sapiens ate a piece of fruit?

And that makes sense?


Dear Jose,

The blind shall not see, but those who have eyes from God shall see. Do your eyes let you see what God would love for you to see??! That is your choice, Jose!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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It's called special pleading. The clever bit is deliberately pasted into the first premise: "Anything that begins to exist....." And guess what, God it turns out, didn't begin to exist. Who'd have guessed it? God gets an escapes route via the the first premise. No trickery going on there at all. :chuckle:

Ya'll must have thought we came down the Thames on a we we pot :p


Dear Hedshaker,

God never had a beginning that you've known about or have seen otherwise, right? He also has no ending, as you will see and know about if you make it to a place called Heaven. But you don't believe in that either, right? You going to float down the Thames on your brain alone? Without a paddle to boot?

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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I've been itching to point out for some time that apparently humans have just as many hair follicles as chimps, but of course generally not as thick. :)
If we ever needed warmer hair in the future then the wheel would not need to be reinvented so to speak, natural selection would simply favour those with thicker hair.

Of course there is an excellent explanation for evolution of the eye, and no reason at all to presume eyesight is somehow irreducibly complex.
The fact that you personally aren't convinced by the explanation is your business and no great surprise to many others here, but then again you are somewhat contractually obliged to automatically reject anything that would seem to have taken longer than 6000 years or so to develop, right?
The fact that the human eye is wired back to front and has a blind spot is good evidence that it evolved and wasn't competently designed.


Dear alwight,

The fact of however the human eye is wired is up to God. We see just fine with what we've been given, and there are those who don't see at all with what they've been given. Do you understand what I mean here?

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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I think it makes excellent sense if you are not compelled to believe it literally. It was clearly only ever meant to be a metaphor for the acquiring of adult knowledge, a kind of birds and bees, facts of life fantasy tale, but fundies don't do metaphor. :nono:


Dear alwight,

Some things can be believed both literally and metaphorically. You must know that, right? Sure, people of God do understand metaphors also.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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We have the same number of eyes, arms, hearts etc.
Your point is we might have the same Creator?

(Stop itching... you might have lice in all that hair on your back?) :)


It's a silly belief.

Mutations can only create vision in an evutionists dreams. Arranging things in patterns to fit your beliefs is not science.*

Hard to believe evolutionists still try to use that argument. Science demolished that argument years ago.*Researchers Amichai Labin and Erez Ribak at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa found, “The retina is revealed as an optimal structure designed for improving the sharpness of images." So instead of it being a backwards design it is actually an optimal design.... evidence of our Creator.

As ophthalmologist *Dr.*George Marshall said:
“The idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of knowledge of eye function and anatomy.”


Dear 6days,

A wonderful post, fitting of the Most High!! Keep up the good work whenever possible!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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What about existence itself? The Big Bang "event" may well have been the beginning of the universe we know about but beyond that is an argument from ignorance.


Dear Hedshaker,

Existence itself happened when God caused it to be. We could be part of the originator of the so-called Big Bang, but I believe there is more going on behind the scenes that God letting us think there are tons more Universes or galaxies out there. Give it a couple more months before you make a final decision.

Michael
 
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Kdall

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Except that is not what God tells us. The whole creation groans because of sin on earth. The universe was created so that we can see the power and majesty of our Creator.

And why do you assume that Earth is the only planet that God gifted life to?
 

Kdall

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Of course there is an excellent explanation for evolution of the eye, and no reason at all to presume eyesight is somehow irreducibly complex.
The fact that you personally aren't convinced by the explanation is your business and no great surprise to many others here, but then again you are somewhat contractually obliged to automatically reject anything that would seem to have taken longer than 6000 years or so to develop, right?
The fact that the human eye is wired back to front and has a blind spot is good evidence that it evolved and wasn't competently designed.

I wonder what 6days thinks about the mollusk eye. It's designed in the way you'd expect it to be, not reverse engineered like ours. Otherwise, they're nearly identical. Why would God give squid better eyes than us? Or how about the eyes of birds of prey? They are designed like ours, except their vision is unbelievably more effective
 

Kdall

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Dear Kdall,

Just because there are supposedly "many other galaxies" doesn't mean there are or that they could be inhabited. They could be 'eye candy' for all you know, letting man believe there are other galaxies and imagining all kinds of things besides believing there is only One God and that He Created ALL of these things. God has allowed man to believe in evolution, so it's not like He's not letting us think whatever we want, even though it's a lie. Do you understand what I mean. Man can believe whatever he conjures up to believe.

No contest here.

Michael

:angrymob:

Michael, we can see those galaxies. Thousands of them. We have had the technology for a very long time. They aren't hypothetical. And we can observe planets as well orbiting around stars. We have named so many galaxies that I could not list them all here. It would take a month. I think you should do some light research on astronomy, and then perhaps you'll understand the point I was trying to make
 
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