Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

Is that what Darwin did? Provided evidence of an old Earth and no global flood? Did Darwin proclaim beyond all doubt the technical stuff like speciation, common descent, fossil records and genetics??

To An Understanding And Cool Fellow,

Michael

I simply offered you a quick way to falsify Darwinian evolution because it depends on billions of years not a few thousand, if you have a better naturalistic way then by all means use it.

Darwinian evolution offers rational explanations for all the natural evidence that surrounds us, if after understanding the evidence and explanation you disagree with the conclusions then argue them here, but please don't just reject what you haven't understood only because you want to be a YECist instead.

 

[DavisBJ]

Slavery Commanded by God?

Slavery Commanded by God?

Re: slavery:

Dear Kdall,

It is written that Ham would serve his brethren. This was because of something he did when he saw his father naked.

Michael, it is a fact of life that children largely inherit the morals and society that they were born into.

But in the case you bring up, “Ham” does not mean just the person named that in the Bible, but it includes all his descendants. And that means that according to scripture, those millions of descendants were destined to slavery because of something their ancestor did millennia ago. Not only is slavery permitted, according to what you say, it is enshrined by God’s word as being a way of life to be endured by a whole lot of people who had nothing to do with what Ham did. A good example of how justice is turned on its head by your God.

 

[Interplanner]

I simply offered you a quick way to falsify Darwinian evolution because it depends on billions of years not a few thousand, if you have a better naturalistic way then by all means use it.

Darwinian evolution offers rational explanations for all the natural evidence that surrounds us, if after understanding the evidence and explanation you disagree with the conclusions then argue them here, but please don't just reject what you haven't understood only because you want to be a YECist instead.

You mean about plant and animal life. I don't think he knew much about techtonics and many other physical anomalies.

There is nothing irrational about an infinite God making things quickly as easily as you or I make oatmeal cookies. In a sense, he did it easier as the record goes: by fiat. He spoke. You are comparing two things that have completely unmatchable presuppositions. No Christian I know of is trying make the God of Genesis fit and function in the presuppositions of naturalistic uniformitarianism. It is when a person seals off all other accounts outside of that frame that they become dishonest.

 

[DavisBJ]

6days, looking back over some of the recent posts dealing with goosebumps, I note this exchange:

In other mammals, the arrector pili serve the purpose of fluffing hair up in order to increase body warmth. We no longer even have the hair necessary to make these pili useful

You, 6days, responded:

…. goosebumps quite likely are a heightened emotional response.... nothing at all to do with hairy ancestors.

Then I asked:

… 6days, what would be required for you to agree that Kdall’s description of what the arrector pili do is correct?

Your response seems to differ with what you claimed above:

Yes...he correctly described what it does in animals.

Can you clarify – do you or do you not agree with Kdall’s assertion “In other mammals, the arrector pili serve the purpose of fluffing hair up in order to increase body warmth “

 

[MichaelCadry]

Evolution is about trying to convince that everything improves over time without the assistance from anything outside itself. I know, I know, sounds stupid and it is but, you want to believe that so whatta ya going to do.

That's really a shame to believe that way.

 

[DavisBJ]

I mentioned degenerate eyes as vestigial in creatures living in total darkness:

… If we find some “left-over” biological feature that serves no apparent function, that sure sounds like another candidate for being vestigial. (Like rudimentary eyes in some cave dwellers who live in total darkness.)

6days seized on that example as supporting his view:

…That better fits the Biblical creation model. A intelligently designed feature that has been lost.

6days, you don’t simply propose that vestigial eyes in dark caves are degenerate from the original creation, but flatly asserted that is a better explanation than evolution might offer for vestigial eyes in a dark cave. You made the assertion, now tell us how an unbiased scientist would be led to your conclusion as opposed to the explanation from evolution.

 

[DavisBJ]

I asked 6days:

… If an organ HAS A USEFUL FUNCTION, could it still be a vestigial organ?

6 days gave a waffling answer:

As you said....it comes down to how we define words.
Our hands are useful. In a broad sense, evolutionists could say our hands are vestigial, because they believe it formerly had a different function in the past.
The answer to your question is "no".
..... but it could be "yes". it depends on the definition.

First, I am not going to accept an answer of “no”, followed by “it could be ‘yes’”.

I hadn’t realized the definition of “useful” was so ambiguous that it would be a point of contention. Let me toss out a layman’s definition – if an organ performs some beneficial biological function, even a minor one, then it is not useless. That OK?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, the purpose of an on-line forum is to present our words of wisdom openly. If you have something worthwhile that should be said then post it here where we can all see it, I don't do homework. If you have something special to say then I promise I'll be keen to read your book, but tbh so far I haven't been particularly encouraged to do so.

Dear Alwight,

My book is about Jesus' Second Coming, among other things. Not whether or not there is a Jesus, but that He is and He's returning again. Like He came the first time when He was born here, so He's going to return here in the same way as the manner in which He left, with the clouds of Heaven, just as you see in my Avatar. I come beforehand to speak and prepare the way for Him, by telling others what has been told to me. For those who will hear, good for them. For those who won't hear, what else can I do? Most of my being believes that Armageddon, the precursor to His Returning, will happen this Autumn or so. What more do you want of me? I am only human just like you. Is it too much to ask you to wait a couple of months? You will never be encouraged to do so. That is in your nature. There are those who believe without seeing. Blessed are they. There are those who believe after they've seen. Blessed are those who believe without seeing, like I first said. Shall you be given the same reward as they? That doesn't sound too fair. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I simply offered you a quick way to falsify Darwinian evolution because it depends on billions of years not a few thousand, if you have a better naturalistic way then by all means use it.

Darwinian evolution offers rational explanations for all the natural evidence that surrounds us, if after understanding the evidence and explanation you disagree with the conclusions then argue them here, but please don't just reject what you haven't understood only because you want to be a YECist instead.

Dear alwight,

You say this man's evolution theories depend on billions of years and I say not even a few thousand. He's bogus. Don't reject me just because you want to be OECist instead.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Re: slavery:

Michael, it is a fact of life that children largely inherit the morals and society that they were born into.

But in the case you bring up, “Ham” does not mean just the person named that in the Bible, but it includes all his descendants. And that means that according to scripture, those millions of descendants were destined to slavery because of something their ancestor did millennia ago. Not only is slavery permitted, according to what you say, it is enshrined by God’s word as being a way of life to be endured by a whole lot of people who had nothing to do with what Ham did. A good example of how justice is turned on its head by your God.

Dear Davis,

What Ham did to his father was not okay with Noah. Noah cursed his own son. God did not do it. See Gen. 9:5KJV. Ham/Canaan did something very embarrassing to Noah. Noah perceived it and cursed his son for doing it. God has lifted the curse, but only before these latter years. Don't look at me. Don't kill the messenger. I don't command these things. Ask Noah and God about it, BJ. It is Noah's doing.

May God Bless You For Asking,

Michael

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

My book is about Jesus' Second Coming, among other things. Not whether or not there is a Jesus, but that He is and He's returning again. Like He came the first time when He was born here, so He's going to return here in the same way as the manner in which He left, with the clouds of Heaven, just as you see in my Avatar. I come beforehand to speak and prepare the way for Him, by telling others what has been told to me. For those who will hear, good for them. For those who won't hear, what else can I do? Most of my being believes that Armageddon, the precursor to His Returning, will happen this Autumn or so. What more do you want of me? I am only human just like you. Is it too much to ask you to wait a couple of months? You will never be encouraged to do so. That is in your nature. There are those who believe without seeing. Blessed are they. There are those who believe after they've seen. Blessed are those who believe without seeing, like I first said. Shall you be given the same reward as they? That doesn't sound too fair. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

Michael

Michael, you seem to be saying that it is more blessed to believe without seeing, or to just believe without engaging brain in other words.
However, I personally prefer/want/need to believe what actually is likely to be true, not because somebody somewhere thinks that they are special and are gifted with advance notification of Jesus' second coming, but because that is what facts and evidence suggests is true.
The list of people who have claimed to have this special knowledge is pretty long even if you don't include Jehovah Witnesses. To say that their success rate is abysmal is giving credit where none id due. I have no shred of rational doubt at all that this year will simply pass just like all the previous ones, with me or without me in still in it.lain:

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

You say this man's evolution theories depend on billions of years and I say not even a few thousand. He's bogus. Don't reject me just because you want to be OECist instead.

Michael

Michael, if you took the time to understand something of the theory of evolution you would realise that it is not about believing in one man, it is about how natural evidence supports the theory and doesn't falsify it, not the man. Geology had already begun to show the great age of the Earth before Darwin came along, so it wasn't Darwin who put paid to the presumed strictly Biblical time scales it was natural evidence.
An old Earth however did then give the time needed for evolution by natural selection to take place, which just wasn't imagined to be there before.
Darwin saw the evidence for himself and could see that, given sufficient time, small adaptions could eventually become the large changes we see, as evidenced by the fossil record and much more.

I am not a creationist Michael old or young, life has adapted and is adapting to its environment, it isn't magically created as is, it clearly evolves whether you like it or not.

 

[Interplanner]

Michael, if you took the time to understand something of the theory of evolution you would realise that it is not about believing in one man, it is about how natural evidence supports the theory and doesn't falsify it, not the man. Geology had already begun to show the great age of the Earth before Darwin came along, so it wasn't Darwin who put paid to the presumed strictly Biblical time scales it was natural evidence.
An old Earth however did then give the time needed for evolution by natural selection to take place, which just wasn't imagined to be there before.
Darwin saw the evidence for himself and could see that, given sufficient time, small adaptions could eventually become the large changes we see, as evidenced by the fossil record and much more.

I am not a creationist Michael old or young, life has adapted and is adapting to its environment, it isn't magically created as is, it clearly evolves whether you like it or not.

It would be better if creationists spent their effort on presuppositions instead of the mechanics of evolution. It is the presuppositions that matter most in the final analysis. Time + chance + matter made all this? Not a chance.

The astrophycists Gonzales and ____ made the doc THE PRIVILEGED PLANET to show the extreme improbabilities of some 20 features of life on earth. It is far too designed. The privilege was not to sit around and say there is no significance year in and out. It was to say wow, not only are these features amazing but they allow us to view the Creator's plan and design. The two scientists were essentially converted upon witnessing the 1996 solar eclipse in India.

 

[Kdall]

It would be better if creationists spent their effort on presuppositions instead of the mechanics of evolution. It is the presuppositions that matter most in the final analysis. Time + chance + matter made all this? Not a chance.

Except for when you consider how many trillions of planets and moons are out there, you'd expect for the "perfect" conditions to arrive at at least a few of them totally naturally. That's not to say that God didn't have a helping hand, but odds indicate that it could be arisen without any supernatural assistance

 

[Hedshaker]

It would be better if creationists spent their effort on presuppositions instead of the mechanics of evolution. It is the presuppositions that matter most in the final analysis. Time + chance + matter made all this? Not a chance.

But the most powerful being imaginable existing just because, popping in existence from nothing, or always existing (same thing really) and then poofing the universe by supernatural magic stands a good chance? Really?

At least we know the universe is real. How it came about is unknown but I wouldn't be surprised if the reality of it all is far stranger than any ones cherished beliefs.

 

[seehigh]

But the most powerful being imaginable existing just because, popping in existence from nothing, or always existing (same thing really) and then poofing the universe by supernatural magic stands a good chance? Really?

At least we know the universe is real. How it came about is unknown but I wouldn't be surprised if the reality of it all is far stranger than any ones cherished beliefs.

Yeah it sure doesn't make sense that the default position is God done it if the answer is not yet known scientifically.

 

[Hedshaker]

Yeah it sure doesn't make sense that the default position is God done it if the answer is not yet known scientifically.

They intuit that everything must be created but it never crosses their mind where this God came from.

But then, a lot of stuff science has shown us has been counter intuitive.

 

[6days]

They intuit that everything must be created but it never crosses their mind where this God came from.

But then, a lot of stuff science has shown us has been counter intuitive.

Both science and logic suggest a Supreme uncaused intelligence created everything. Anything that begins to exist has a cause.

 

[6days]

Except for when you consider how many trillions of planets and moons are out there, you'd expect for the "perfect" conditions to arrive at at least a few of them totally naturally. That's not to say that God didn't have a helping hand, but odds indicate that it could be arisen without any supernatural assistance

Except that is not what God tells us. The whole creation groans because of sin on earth. The universe was created so that we can see the power and majesty of our Creator.

 

[alwight]

Except that is not what God tells us. The whole creation groans because of sin on earth. The universe was created so that we can see the power and majesty of our Creator.

Wow, the whole universe groans because some mythical character apparently ate a bit of mythical fruit in a mythical garden on this insignificant blue speck. :noway: