Creation vs. Evolution II

[6days]

who says they did?

God

 

[6days]

1. where does it say that death was not present before Adam? If I remember right, only humans were condemned to death which may mean only humans pertained a uniqueness that other animals do not.*

You don't remember correctly. All creation groans.*

Animals were given to man, I dont see how if we would feed on them and they did not die.

You seem to invent scripture.

God gave both animals and humans a veggie diet. *"Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food". Gen. 1:29

It was only much later after sin was in the world that God permitted eating animals."*Everything*that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."Gen.9:3

2. where does it indicate that resurrection was in response to physical death? there is lots of symbolism mixed in with literal meaning within the Bible, but death is often refered to as a spiritual death.

3rd time... you avoid the question. If death existed before sin, what was the purpose of the cross?

Also possible that the new suffering humans would endure after first sin was different to both by context and reflection.

In order to believe man's opinions rather than what God clearly says, you add all types of compromising ideas into scripture destroying the Gospel. You seem to believe in a god who created through pain, sufferring, extinctions and death calling it very good. His Word tells us death is the enemy, yet you think God calls it good?

 

[Caino]

But this isn't earth and there are no fossils, just cross-bed layers that developed over long periods of time corresponding with what was occurring on our planet. This is Mars. The Hebrews YEC and flood story doesn't work on Mars.

 

[6days]

Im talking earth... your talking Mars... I'm talking evidence... you're talking beliefs

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[randomvim]

God

I have yet to read this.
But since you misinterpret sarcasm already, Ill refrain from further dialog on this subtopic

 

[randomvim]

You don't remember correctly. All creation groans.*

You seem to invent scripture.

God gave both animals and humans a veggie diet. *"Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food". Gen. 1:29

It was only much later after sin was in the world that God permitted eating animals."*Everything*that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."Gen.9:3



3rd time... you avoid the question. If death existed before sin, what was the purpose of the cross?


In order to believe man's opinions rather than what God clearly says, you add all types of compromising ideas into scripture destroying the Gospel. You seem to believe in a god who created through pain, sufferring, extinctions and death calling it very good. His Word tells us death is the enemy, yet you think God calls it good?

1. If I do not remember correctly, then perhaps you may share a link?

2. http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm
Yes much of the plants were given to us as food. The passage before identifies that we are given command of the animals as well. before that, the word cattle is used.

we would need to go over translation, but if the terms are correct in translation then eating animals is a possibility. However, even to dispute meaning of command would not dispute that animals would have died prior to man or during first man.

2b. http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen009.htm
Gen 9 is story of the ark. If we take the Bible purely literal, then there should be some reference to this. Instead, we notice that early peoples kept animals for food and offerings before the ark ( ex: Kane and Abel)

3. I did not avoid the queation for the point of crucifix.

as for your concept of death, what do you mean by death? death of body or soul? physical death means nothing in comparison to ones soul. physical death is how we go to the next life.

 

[6days]

1. If I do not remember correctly, then perhaps you may share a link?

In order to accomodate evolutionism, you need to believe that animal death, pain, sufferring and extinctions was part of what God caĺled "very good". And, it would seem that you believe "all creation groaning" was also part of original design.

2.http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm
Yes much of the plants were given to us as food. The passage before identifies that we are given command of the animals as well. before that, the word cattle is used.

In order to accomodate evolutionism, you need to believe that animal death, pain, sufferring and extinctions was part of what God caĺled "very good". The verses before the 'diet' verses say nothing about eating animals. Evolutionists always change and compromise on His Word.
This is what God's Word tells us " Here are all the herbs, God told them, that seed on earth, and all the trees, that carry in them the seeds of their own life, to be your food; food for all the beasts on the earth, all that flies in the air, all that creeps along the ground; here all that lives shall find its nourishment. And so it was done."

we would need to go over translation, but if the terms are correct in translation then eating animals is a possibility. However, even to dispute meaning of command would not dispute that animals would have died prior to man or during first man.

Do you notice that you keep hoping that His Word can be interpreted , or that you might find a translation, to fit your belief system...rather than accepting what He clearly says?

2b.http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen009.htm
Gen 9 is story of the ark. If we take the Bible purely literal, then there should be some reference to this. Instead, we notice that early peoples kept animals for food and offerings before the ark ( ex: Kane and Abel)

Again, you are trying to find things in scripture that are not there. God clearly CLEARLY did not give His ok on eating animals until after sin entered the world. Gen. 9 " All the beasts of earth, and the winged things of the sky, and the creeping things of earth, are to go in fear and dread of you, and I give you dominion over all the fishes of the sea. This creation that lives and moves is to provide food for you; I make it all over to you, by the same title as the herbs that have growth.

3. I did not avoid the queation for the point of crucifix.
as for your concept of death, what do you mean by death? death of body or soul? physical death means nothing in comparison to ones soul. physical death is how we go to the next life.

There are verses both in OT and NT that show us the penalty for sin was both physical and spiritual death.
1Cor. 15: 21 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"Also see Rom. 5:12-19

In order to accommodate evolutionism, it would seem you need to have a disconnect with God's Word. The verse is discussing a physical resurrection, necessitated by the physical death that resulted from sin.

And....If physical death already existed before sin... then why did Christ need to physically die and be resurrected? If the curse in Genesis 2 was only a spiritual death to Adam, then Christ only need to rise, or defeat, spiritual death. Clearly, in 1 Cor. 15:26, physical death was part of the curse which Christ conquers.

To imagine that Genesis 2:17 is not referring to physical death, is refuted in Genesis 3:19 (Using KJV again) "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Physical death ...returning to dust, IS part of the curse. It is something that Christ has defeated and we can join Him in the resurrection. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Rev. 21:4

 

[Caino]

Im talking earth... your talking Mars... I'm talking evidence... you're talking beliefs

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LoL! Wiggle boy wiggle! Your talking the same baloney that you always talk. You cherry pick to buttress a delusion that God wrote a factually inaccurate creation story. You claim sedimentary rock formations were caused by a singular flood event, but God wasn't flooding Mars at the same time.

 

[6days]

I always find it amusing that evolutionists have no problem seeing flood evidence on Mars, but are blind to flood evidence on earth.

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[Jonahdog]

I always find it amusing that evolutionists have no problem seeing flood evidence on Mars, but are blind to flood evidence on earth.

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There is lots of evidence of floods on earth. No one denies that. The evidence however, does not suggest a world wide flood just a few thousand years ago.

 

[Jonahdog]

Yes...Dinosaurs and men did co-exist. But why are you suggesting that is science? Evolutionists have a hard time understanding the difference between their belief system and science.

And how do YOU know that? that dinosaurs and man co-existed?

 

[6days]

There is lots of evidence of floods on earth. No one denies that. The evidence however, does not suggest a world wide flood just a few thousand years ago.

We can agree that there is evidence of catastrophic burial of organisms virtually everywhere on earth. We won't agree on how and when. However the evidence is consistent with God's Word.

 

[6days]

And how do YOU know that? that dinosaurs and man co-existed?

From God's Word.

 

[Caino]

I always find it amusing that evolutionists have no problem seeing flood evidence on Mars, but are blind to flood evidence on earth.

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You are being dishonest again, there is evidence of many floods over millions of years. There is no evidence of the Hebrews flood story. The authors of Genesis created the flood story to fill in the huge gap in their genealogical connection to the Mesopotamian story of Adam.

 

[6days]

You are being dishonest again, there is evidence of many floods over millions of years. There is no evidence of the Hebrews flood story. The authors of Genesis created the flood story to fill in the huge gap in their genealogical connection to the Mesopotamian story of Adam.

Sorry Caino... the evidence is consistent with the global flood. There is evidence from geology, genetics, radioistope dating, eye witness testimony and more.

 

[patrick jane]

But this isn't earth and there are no fossils, just cross-bed layers that developed over long periods of time corresponding with what was occurring on our planet. This is Mars. The Hebrews YEC and flood story doesn't work on Mars.

Mars once had water and extreme floods -

 

[MichaelCadry]

As in dinosaurs and man lived together? That empirical science?

Dear Jonahdog,

Well, we know "there were giants on the Earth, and also after that..." {See Gen. 6:4}. Giants certainly refer to men, women, or dinosaurs, or all. Certainly, the Bible references dinosaurs {Dragons} at times, like Leviathan, etc., and there are armadillos, crocodiles, serpents, alligators, horned toads, elephants {from mastodons}, and more, creatures from the dinosaur age, because they are almost harmless to men, though I do know of attacks on humans by alligators or crocodiles, most animals are not bad, but instead, are good animals which God did not need to destroy in the Great Flood. Even look at tortoises and turtles. Pretty harmless animals from the dinosaur/ people age. God wanted every thing to die in the Flood, that is why He took good pairs of animals into the ark with Noah, etc. Evidently, most of the dinosaurs were not included a spot on the ark. It could be them, in part, why the Lord God regretted that He made them. It is a very intricate subject, but I could imagine that turtle eggs would mature and crack their eggs, and start growing in the lakes/ oceans or both. I don't know, because I wasn't there. All we can do is speculate, but some of us believe differently, so big deal. We are told by our God that He created things in 6 days and rested on the 7th. The Sabbath is on Saturday, legally, but Christians mistakenly think it is on Sunday, which is really the first day of the week, not the last. It's all because of a decree or ruling passed down from Constantinople. I believe he was a king or something. I'd have to go hunt up the answer and I don't feel like doing it right now.

Frankly, I don't even feel like looking up anything just to prove My God Exists. I believe and that is good enough for me. If some won't believe, then it must be God's Will that they don't and won't make it to Heaven or that they might change their minds at the last minute. I have this feeling though, that that alone will not be enough. Once again, I can only speculate, because only God, Jesus, and those privy to such things, know. Will find out soon enough or so, if it is God's Will. You can't expect us to answer everything in the world that you don't know the answer to. We are Christians and we are proud to bear Christ's cross on our backs. But that doesn't mean we know everything. Only God knows everything. Enough for now. I've got to go to bed. It is 5a.m. I'll answer more tomorrow.

Sincerely,

Michael

 

[Caino]

Sorry Caino... the evidence is consistent with the global flood. There is evidence from geology, genetics, radioistope dating, eye witness testimony and more.

No need to apologize to me, it's you who carry the water of self deception. You should look at yourself in the mirror and get honest.

 

[randomvim]

In order to accomodate evolutionism, you need to believe that animal death, pain, sufferring and extinctions was part of what God caĺled "very good". And, it would seem that you believe "all creation groaning" was also part of original design.
In order to accomodate evolutionism, you need to believe that animal death, pain, sufferring and extinctions was part of what God caĺled "very good". The verses before the 'diet' verses say nothing about eating animals. Evolutionists always change and compromise on His Word.
This is what God's Word tells us " Here are all the herbs, God told them, that seed on earth, and all the trees, that carry in them the seeds of their own life, to be your food; food for all the beasts on the earth, all that flies in the air, all that creeps along the ground; here all that lives shall find its nourishment. And so it was done."
Do you notice that you keep hoping that His Word can be interpreted , or that you might find a translation, to fit your belief system...rather than accepting what He clearly says?
Again, you are trying to find things in scripture that are not there. God clearly CLEARLY did not give His ok on eating animals until after sin entered the world. Gen. 9 " All the beasts of earth, and the winged things of the sky, and the creeping things of earth, are to go in fear and dread of you, and I give you dominion over all the fishes of the sea. This creation that lives and moves is to provide food for you; I make it all over to you, by the same title as the herbs that have growth.

There are verses both in OT and NT that show us the penalty for sin was both physical and spiritual death.
1Cor. 15: 21 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"Also see Rom. 5:12-19

In order to accommodate evolutionism, it would seem you need to have a disconnect with God's Word. The verse is discussing a physical resurrection, necessitated by the physical death that resulted from sin.

And....If physical death already existed before sin... then why did Christ need to physically die and be resurrected? If the curse in Genesis 2 was only a spiritual death to Adam, then Christ only need to rise, or defeat, spiritual death. Clearly, in 1 Cor. 15:26, physical death was part of the curse which Christ conquers.

To imagine that Genesis 2:17 is not referring to physical death, is refuted in Genesis 3:19 (Using KJV again) "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Physical death ...returning to dust, IS part of the curse. It is something that Christ has defeated and we can join Him in the resurrection. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Rev. 21:4

1a. dont believe evolutionism is a thing. maybe some rely on it too much.

1b. part of evolution is to identify how species change to be efficient in an ever changing environement. I see no harm in this.

1c. to say extinctions, pain, suffering, and death in general is not part of God's plan or in some way what God deemed "good" is to say one of two things ( or so how I see it for now) a. these things are not good OR b. we were to refrain from change.
perhaps there are other possible outcomes.

1d. I am still on my road of study but I do not view those things as bad.

2. I do not hope to make things what they are not. Part of study is to try and identify what others cant or dont want to. what I cant or dont want to see. to see the deeper meaning to things. Some things may be clear cut but not everything.

3. why Did Christ need to die a physical death? He didnt. that was a choice, to accept. otherwise redemption could have taken form in any manor. Instead, it represents a deeper meaning.

 

[6days]

I strongly disagree with #3. Would you mind if I start a new thread asking others to comment kindly? (I won't yse your name). If you prefer...I can just answer myself in this thread, but I think its an important discussion others should engage in.

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