Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Wait a minute... you can come to enjoy something through effort?
Too general to be particularly meaningful. You make the effort to read because it's required of you and find yourself involved in something you love. But the next kid puts in the same work and can't wait for recess. Or, as in my case, you see adults reading and they seem to enjoy it, so you want to sample it and see if you'll feel the same way. You take the plunge and love the water...or you don't and you likely don't swim again unless someone throws you into a body of water.

I don't think effort is the reason, only a gateway through which we pass into experience. How we respond to the experience is everything.

Yes, I get it. And there are lots of reasons people might decide to try to enjoy something.
You're still skewing with that construction. Rather, there are a lot of reasons why people might try something they want to accomplish. There's an element in there that goes to that foundational "why?" I noted and you find tangential. I think it's demonstrably crucial to the discussion and I'll come back to it in a moment.

Usually those reasons are socially, morally, or even economically motivated.

Why did I want to enjoy smoking when I was a teenager?
Why do vegetarians try to acclimate to tofu?
You're missing the key element that distinguishes with each of your examples: the actors desire to act and do. I'm a step back of that suggesting that the important factor is in the why of that. If that why isn't present the rest fails. They aren't forcing themselves to like something they don't want to like. They're acclimating to a thing they want, either for the thing itself or some related reason they find compelling.

The important thing is their desire to do and encompass.

Why would anyone make the attempt? Prostitutes are willing to, for money.
That's conflating the commission of an act with the desire for the act, but your example contradicts that since the prostitute's desire isn't for sex, but for power/money.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Too general to be particularly meaningful. You make the effort to read because it's required of you and find yourself involved in something you love. But the next kid puts in the same work and can't wait for recess. I don't think effort is the reason, only a gateway through which we pass into experience. How we respond to the experience is everything.


and what determines how we will respond?

willingness

the way we approach it


artie stamps his foot and angrily insists "i could never learn to enjoy beyonce"

and so, artie will never learn to enjoy beyonce :idunno:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
town asks:
"Why would I make the attempt?"

gj repeats town's question and offers an answer:
Why would anyone make the attempt?
A bit off topic, but...

Prostitutes are willing to, for money. :idunno:


town hastily moves the target and makes a fractured, labored rebuttal:
That's conflating the commission of an act with the desire for the act, but your example contradicts that since the prostitute's desire isn't for sex, but for power/money.


disappointing :nono:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The messenger matters.
It's a good point, but one that also supports that scale I noted, the inherent distinction that implies a larger scale and removes greatness from the purely subjective.


When I was real young, like pre-school age, I used to really think food tasted different when it wasn't my mother handing it to me.

There are many influences on the things we like, or enjoy.
I'd agree. But you didn't enjoy everything your mother gave you.

If it was all innate
All is broad enough to sustain the point, but then we get to particulars and back to the notice that we don't attempt to acclimate to a thing we have an inherent aversion to (see: foods you spit out) without being equally or more motivated toward the acclimation by another of our impulses. So the "Why would I?" is arguably the most important consideration. And when it comes to sex and the idea of changing orientation, it's a hard sell.

then wouldn't identical twins have identical musical preferences?
Because they actually aren't identical: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
So the "Why would I?" is arguably the most important consideration. And when it comes to sex and the idea of changing orientation, it's a hard sell.

not to the next generation, who are being raised to question gender identity, to see the blurring of the lines as normal


and not to those adults who already embrace that crap


accepting gay "marriage" as inevitable gets you halfway there
 
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Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Doser, I keep seeing you pop up repeatedly after a post of mine and given what I know about you it's reasonable to assume any number of them are aimed at me. You went on ignore before Christmas. I can't see you coming off of it. There's just nothing you have to say, even if you're doing the "Look, a reasonable attempt at difference or conversation" that won't end in relative short order with one of your nonsensical "retard" bits or some other expression of the hostility that seems to drive you around here.

Given there's literally nothing to gain from a conversation with you and I long ago culled your entertainment value from The Wrap, which was about the only reason to bother with you in the first place, that essentially ends it for me.

As far as I'm concerned, from here on out you can just go quote yourself. :eek:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
and if i was artie, i'd tell you that putting it in my coffee, my hot sauce, my breakfast cereal, my baked beans didn't count, because that was changing it


and then i'd stamp my foot, shake my fist, sputter some bizarre british insults and claim that i could never, never ever choose to like sugar

Well of course I wouldn't, and happy new year to you ya daft SOD. :)

I like sugar, I've not been averse to it just by itself on occasion but generally use it as a condiment the same as salt. So you enjoy it on baked beans, fair enough, I don't, I'll use a pinch of salt and vinegar, or Worcester sauce usually.

I wouldn't enjoy sugar sprinkled on hot dogs or a Sunday roast. I don't put salt in coffee or tea either.

Go figure...

Now get a grip dude, yeah?

:thumb:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
and what determines how we will respond?

willingness

the way we approach it


artie stamps his foot and angrily insists "i could never learn to enjoy beyonce"

and so, artie will never learn to enjoy beyonce :idunno:

Nothing angry about it, her songs are just bland and boring as with a myriad other pop pap. There's nothing to "learn" about any of it. It's generic and formulaic and as such is completely unappealing to the ear.

Simple as that.

Else go and enjoy a bacon and icing sugar sandwich.

:)
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
There may be an elegant solution. :)

celery-and-peanut-butter.png

Er, nooooooooooooooooo....
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Doser, I keep seeing you pop up repeatedly after a post of mine and given what I know about you it's reasonable to assume any number of them are aimed at me. You went on ignore before Christmas. I can't see you coming off of it. There's just nothing you have to say, even if you're doing the "Look, a reasonable attempt at difference or conversation" that won't end in relative short order with one of your nonsensical "retard" bits or some other expression of the hostility that seems to drive you around here.

Given there's literally nothing to gain from a conversation with you and I long ago culled your entertainment value from The Wrap, which was about the only reason to bother with you in the first place, that essentially ends it for me.

As far as I'm concerned, from here on out you can just go quote yourself. :eek:
Good idea. :cool:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
now - stravinsky's rite of spring

artie has waxed large about how he was instantly transported by his initial exposure to the work

i suspect he heard it performed well, by professionals

Well, sure I did, as one would expect from any respected record label. They're not generally in the business of churning out classical works performed by aardvarks and bathroom cabinets dude...

It was the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas - still one of my favourite renditions of the piece although Salonen conducts an impressively intense version of it also.

i also suspect that, if his only exposure to it had been at a third grade clarinet recital, he would angrily insist that he could never, never ever learn to enjoy it, that if it was performed well, by professionals, that would be changing it :dizzy:

You do know that 'The Rite' is a full scale work for orchestra right? An elite clarinet outfit wouldn't be able to perform the piece to any sort of recognizable measure you dingbat. :doh:

Seriously, think through your strawmen more thoroughly next time...

:dizzy:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
But for the purposes of this conversation, maybe it should be.
Enjoyment is completely subjective.

You've been given reasons - and repeatedly as to why certain things for certain people are simply not - and can't be enjoyable.

So if this is as far as you're willing to debate despite the detailed and in depth responses you've had - and which you've edited to bits in 'response', are you now willing to concede that for some of us Beyonce will simply never be enjoyable as a musical experience?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Doser, I keep seeing you pop up repeatedly after a post of mine and given what I know about you it's reasonable to assume any number of them are aimed at me. You went on ignore before Christmas. I can't see you coming off of it. There's just nothing you have to say, even if you're doing the "Look, a reasonable attempt at difference or conversation" that won't end in relative short order with one of your nonsensical "retard" bits or some other expression of the hostility that seems to drive you around here.

Given there's literally nothing to gain from a conversation with you and I long ago culled your entertainment value from The Wrap, which was about the only reason to bother with you in the first place, that essentially ends it for me.

As far as I'm concerned, from here on out you can just go quote yourself. :eek:

You're not missing anything although he's bound to accuse you of angrily stamping about I suspect...

:chuckle:
 
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