Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
People don't eat peanut butter by itself either, man.

Sure they do, my sister used to love eating the stuff straight out of the jar dude. Sure, she had it on bread and other things as well but she loves the taste of the stuff itself.


Ice cream doesn't mask the taste, anymore than fries mask the taste of ketchup.

Never said it did which is why I said you don't have an aversion to ketchup. You must enjoy the taste to have it on chips by your very own argument. The only way I could "enjoy" peanut butter is if it turned into something else or the taste was masked enough whereby I essentially wouldn't know it was even in the mix.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
If no one on Planet Earth enjoyed the 5th symphony, then it wouldn't be great.

Returning to this, yes it would. It would just be sad that there was nobody around to enjoy it is all. There's reasons why Joyce, Beethoven, Dali, Stravinsky, Da Vinci etc are venerated as geniuses and it isn't down to a simplistic 'subjective opinion' as to the worth of a piece or the enjoyment of it. If you don't get that then what really, have you got here?

If the population of earth only enjoyed Beyonce then would that make her a musical genius?

Get real here GJ.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Returning to this, yes it would. It would just be sad that there was nobody around to enjoy it is all. There's reasons why Joyce, Beethoven, Dali, Stravinsky, Da Vinci etc are venerated as geniuses and it isn't down to a simplistic 'subjective opinion' as to the worth of a piece or the enjoyment of it. If you don't get that then what really, have you got here?

If the population of earth only enjoyed Beyonce then would that make her a musical genius?

Get real here GJ.

If the entire world only enjoyed Beyonce, then she would be considered to be a musical genius, yes.

We're sort of getting into some deeper (and off-course) waters, here. I don't mind, if you don't.
But do you really think beauty is not in the eye of the beholder?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
If the entire world only enjoyed Beyonce, then she would be considered to be a musical genius, yes.

Why? A lot of people enjoy the 'Spice Girls' but I've never heard them described as musical geniuses, at least not with a straight face...popularity doesn't determine that.

We're sort of getting into some deeper (and off-course) waters, here. I don't mind, if you don't.
But do you really think beauty is not in the eye of the beholder?

I don't mind but I'd sooner you address TH's post #262 in depth first as he's explained the gist of this already.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Considered by whom?
By people who have a breadth of experience with literature and by that have developed a palate of substance and depth.

There's nothing wrong with escapist romance novels cranked out like sausages, but great art they aren't.

As I've noted, while the song Happy Birthday is a catchy little tune, it isn't Nessun Dorma. The degree of complexity and skill needed to write an aria and an opera are on another level from the jingle and ditty. :)

That's why there are thousands or millions of catchy ditties and not nearly so many great operas.

There's really no such thing as an objectively "great" work of art. It's only great if people say it's great.
That's still not true (see: my last on the topic, forms, etc.). We don't practice a thing because we believe we won't get better at it. Better implies an inherent scale relative to skill and the same is true for art, by and large, though choosing between great artists and works tends to be a more subjective reflection on how they speak to us.

Try singing it around a campfire (if you like campfires) with others who enjoy it - preferably people you really care about.
If I really cared about them I'd do better by them (shudders). ;)
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
If the entire world only enjoyed Beyonce, then she would be considered to be a musical genius, yes.

We're sort of getting into some deeper (and off-course) waters, here. I don't mind, if you don't.
But do you really think beauty is not in the eye of the beholder?

Just to touch on your last again here, it's not just a subjective opinion about 'beauty' that's under question here anyway. There's no doubting Dali's skills as an artist. You might not personally like any of his works but his technical proficiency is beyond reproach, the same with Beethoven or insert any given number of acknowledged geniuses in the field of the arts. There's reasons why there are acclaimed masterpieces and the authors of them and why Beyonce and Barbara Cartland are not on the list.

C'mon man, do the math here.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
By people who have a breadth of experience with literature and by that have developed a palate of substance and depth.

So... by the people who have trained themselves to like it?


There's nothing wrong with escapist romance novels cranked out like sausages, but great art they aren't.


As I've noted, while the song Happy Birthday is a catchy little tune, it isn't Nessun Dorma. The degree of complexity and skill needed to write an aria and an opera are on another level from the jingle and ditty. :)

That's why there are thousands or millions of catchy ditties and not nearly so many great operas.


That's still not true (see: my last on the topic, forms, etc.). We don't practice a thing because we believe we won't get better at it. Better implies an inherent scale relative to skill and the same is true for art, by and large, though choosing between great artists and works tends to be a more subjective reflection on how they speak to us.


But we are talking about enjoyment, here.
Let's just keep that in mind.

We may be focused on the wrong end of the taste/preference distinction you made earlier.
That's a useful distinction for this discussion, too. As is Arthur's appreciation/enjoyment distinction.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
And I still detest peanut butter and have no choice in that.

I hate the taste of celery. Always have.

There may be an elegant solution. :)

celery-and-peanut-butter.png
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
People don't eat peanut butter by itself either, man.




Ice cream doesn't mask the taste, anymore than fries mask the taste of ketchup.


in a similar manner, my "stop putting it in his ears" comment

there are many ways I could train myself to dislike those things I like - one easy way would be to use them in a manner I don't enjoy

- like putting peanut butter in my ears
- jumping into the lake in december
- listening to stravinsky at the dentist
etc

but to learn to enjoy things that i don't initially, I try to find ways to enhance the enjoyment and minimize the drawbacks

like eating peanut butter with jelly in a sandwich (or with chocolate or in ice cream)
like jumping into the lake on a hot summer day when it feels refreshing
like listening to stravinsky in a comfortable chair with a glass of wine
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Not a bad idea.

I would be pretty put off eating a bowl of ketchup, but put it on some fries and I love the stuff.
Now just because I wouldn't enjoy the taste of ketchup by itself, can I really honestly say that I don't like ketchup? No, I don't think so.

I read an article a while ago about picky eaters being able to slowly cultivate a taste for foods they were previously disgusted by. I may have linked it earlier in the thread, not sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2210933/Can-teach-tastebuds-LOVE-food-HATE.html



i like sugar

i like it in breakfast cereals
i like it in my coffee
i like it in my hot sauce
i like it in my baked beans


but

if my only exposure to it was this:

Spoonful-of-sugar.jpg



i'd tell you i don't like sugar
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
and if i was artie, i'd tell you that putting it in my coffee, my hot sauce, my breakfast cereal, my baked beans didn't count, because that was changing it


and then i'd stamp my foot, shake my fist, sputter some bizarre british insults and claim that i could never, never ever choose to like sugar
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
now - stravinsky's rite of spring

artie has waxed large about how he was instantly transported by his initial exposure to the work

i suspect he heard it performed well, by professionals


i also suspect that, if his only exposure to it had been at a third grade clarinet recital, he would angrily insist that he could never, never ever learn to enjoy it, that if it was performed well, by professionals, that would be changing it :dizzy:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
So... by the people who have trained themselves to like it?
No, by people who like reading and who have widened their palate by exposure, not by forcing themselves to read what they don't like. And again, this doesn't reduce to only what I like/what I don't like. There's a third category that may fall in either camp: what I appreciate by way of understanding. You may like most of it, but chances are you won't like all of it, even though you can appreciate it.

Some people can't stand Faulkner, or Fitzgerald, many can't begin to wade into much of Joyce or Echo, but they should be able to recognize the extraordinary skill in evidence. With music especially, it being such an immediate medium, I can understand that a large percentage of a world pushed toward a minimum effort/maximum speed of access would miss a lot of what is truly great for the satisfyingly immediate.

People drive through McDonald's every day. Few people go there for Thanksgiving.


But we are talking about enjoyment, here.
Let's just keep that in mind.
Sure, I went to the heart of that and the sponsoring debate in my last. You didn't speak to it. To recap: what I think is missed in the discussion over acclimation is whether there is any real reason for the impulse to acclimate. By way of, if you were a vegetarian stranded on an island overrun with wild pigs but not much by way of vegetables, you'd have an impulse, hunger, and the sating would necessarily move through that meat.

Sex is dramatically different. It's an activity that, degree of satisfaction aside, doesn't require a radical alteration of tendency, where that alteration is possible...and I think for many it is possible, because I suspect there are a great many people whose inclination isn't as rooted as it is for the majority. Or, it wouldn't surprise me to find a sliver of people born with an inclination to same sex, a much greater number less particularly rooted (bisexuals) and the majority of people oriented on the opposite sex.

The idea that most of us could change our orientation seems mistaken, to me. And the mistake is rooted in assuming a necessity where none exists and failing to find a reason, absent some inclination, to accommodate in order to sate the impulse. Just so, I noted that abstinence would be preferable to participation in sexual congress with my own sex, for me. So the "Could I?" is a moot point where there is nothing in my makeup that will move me past the "Why would I make the attempt?" And it's a problem for anyone who argues that anyone else could modify their taste on the point.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
... there is nothing in my makeup that will move me past the "Why would I make the attempt?"



this is because your makeup was formed in a culture very different from that which now exists, the culture in which your child will be raised/saturated, the culture in which this goes unremarked:

coveravery.JPG



your child is being raised in a culture that says, not "Why would I make the attempt?", but "Why shouldn't you make the attempt, to discover who you truly are?"
 

glassjester

Well-known member
With music especially, it being such an immediate medium, I can understand that a large percentage of a world pushed toward a minimum effort/maximum speed of access would miss a lot of what is truly great for the satisfyingly immediate.

Wait a minute... you can come to enjoy something through effort? :idea:





Sure, I went to the heart of that and the sponsoring debate in my last. You didn't speak to it. To recap: what I think is missed in the discussion over acclimation is whether there is any real reason for the impulse to acclimate.

Yes, I get it.
And there are lots of reasons people might decide to try to enjoy something.
Usually those reasons are socially, morally, or even economically motivated.

Why did I want to enjoy smoking when I was a teenager?
Why do vegetarians try to acclimate to tofu?


Sex is dramatically different. It's an activity that, degree of satisfaction aside, doesn't require a radical alteration of tendency, where that alteration is possible...and I think for many it is possible, because I suspect there are a great many people whose inclination isn't as rooted as it is for the majority. Or, it wouldn't surprise me to find a sliver of people born with an inclination to same sex, a much greater number less particularly rooted (bisexuals) and the majority of people oriented on the opposite sex.

Alright...


The idea that most of us could change our orientation seems mistaken, to me. And the mistake is rooted in assuming a necessity where none exists and failing to find a reason, absent some inclination, to accommodate in order to sate the impulse. Just so, I noted that abstinence would be preferable to participation in sexual congress with my own sex, for me. So the "Could I?" is a moot point where there is nothing in my makeup that will move me past the "Why would I make the attempt?" And it's a problem for anyone who argues that anyone else could modify their taste on the point.

Why would anyone make the attempt?
A bit off topic, but...

Prostitutes are willing to, for money. :idunno:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Some people can't stand Faulkner, or Fitzgerald, many can't begin to wade into much of Joyce ...

if my only exposure to faulkner, fitzgerald, joyce was books on tape read by diane rehm on helium while I was getting root canal work done without anesthetic, i'd tell you they were vile, unlikable, that I could never learn to like them or appreciate them

and if you suggested that I might enjoy reading them on the printed page, i'd tell you that was changing them
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
The only way peanut butter would become palatable to me is if the taste, texture and substance were altered to the extent where it became something else altogether, which would be pretty pointless really.

do you like flour?




do you like flour?

baker-apprentice-bakery-smelling-fresh-bread-buns-pastry-60161836.jpg
 

glassjester

Well-known member
i suspect he heard it performed well, by professionals

The messenger matters.

I'd be uncomfortable in Hitler's sweater.


When I was real young, like pre-school age, I used to really think food tasted different when it wasn't my mother handing it to me.

There are many influences on the things we like, or enjoy.

If it was all innate, then wouldn't identical twins have identical musical preferences?
 
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