Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

[Arthur Brain]

That's significant though, isn't it?
Why did you decide to give it another try?

Curiosity initially. Don't really see what's so significant about it though. I wouldn't expect to have the same palette as an adult as I did as a child and either way, I don't 'choose' to enjoy the beer I like.

 

[Town Heretic]

Are there any conditions that could lead to you enjoying the song?

I don't know what you mean. I don't enjoy it. I'm no particular fan of her voice, though she can hit the notes. As with everything I've heard from her, it's gratingly repetitive, the lyric is sophomoric, there's an equally annoying, repetitive sound in the percussion I don't care for...nothing in the melody has me wanting to reproduce it. So...not that I can see. What you'd have to alter to make it interesting would make it something else by someone else.

Then you've seen some very "valuable" art that to everyone (except perhaps the artist, critic, and curator) looks like absolute garbage. There are a lot of "Emperor's New Clothes" situations in the art world.

I mistrust anyone's opinion when they speak for everyone. There's a lot of modern art that I don't care for...though I don't side with the crowd who believes paintings should be photographs done in brush or that sculpture should be similarly situated.

If absolutely every human being who heard Beethoven's 5th symphony found it to be utterly appalling, then it wouldn't be great, would it?

I'm saying greatness impresses itself on the individual, beyond their visceral response to it. You're only seeing art through that response. That's too limited. So a skilled musician, even if he doesn't respond to the 5th the way I do, can understand the complexity, the skill, even the genius of its composition. He might prefer "The Macarena" but it's unlikely he'll try to tell you it stands on par with the 5th, even if it exceeds it as a vehicle for enjoyment.

It's our subjective enjoyment of a piece that confers greatness upon it.

Which is why the works of Jackie Collins are considered among the greatest works of fiction instead of Joyce...or, no.

And I've been arguing against the stance that it is completely impossible.

I'd say some things are and others not. So I may come to appreciate beer through wider exposure, but it is my appreciation of the elements of composition, that very exposure, coupled with my natural inclination in relation to forms, that makes my liking the song in question impossible. Short of altering me, through some head trauma or other mental impairment, it's not going to happen. Similarly, everything I know about sex, coupled with my inclinations, makes the thought of approaching congress within my sex impossible for me. There is no circumstance within which I would prefer it to abstinence. So if someone tells me I could choose it if I wanted, I respond that nothing could constitute that necessary step, of wanting to alter it, which seems to rather pointedly put it in the impossible category. And I'd suggest those who could entertain the step aren't so rooted in their own sexuality and would better be termed bisexual, by degrees.

 

[ok doser]

I have never read any Shakespeare :chuckle:

this was my entry into an appreciation for his work:

branagh's Henry V is widely regarded as one of the best film adaptations of a Shakespearean work :thumb:


his Hamlet is magnificent also, although i can't forgive him for resetting it in the 19th century

 

[ok doser]

...And I still detest peanut butter....

rather, you still choose to detest peanut butter



if you chose to enjoy it, you would do things to make that happen

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't know what you mean. I don't enjoy it. I'm no particular fan of her voice, though she can hit the notes. As with everything I've heard from her, it's gratingly repetitive, the lyric is sophomoric, there's an equally annoying, repetitive sound in the percussion I don't care for...nothing in the melody has me wanting to reproduce it. So...not that I can see. What you'd have to alter to make it interesting would make it something else by someone else.


I mistrust anyone's opinion when they speak for everyone. There's a lot of modern art that I don't care for...though I don't side with the crowd who believes paintings should be photographs done in brush or that sculpture should be similarly situated.


I'm saying greatness impresses itself on the individual, beyond their visceral response to it. You're only seeing art through that response. That's too limited. So a skilled musician, even if he doesn't respond to the 5th the way I do, can understand the complexity, the skill, even the genius of its composition. He might prefer "The Macarena" but it's unlikely he'll try to tell you it stands on par with the 5th, even if it exceeds it as a vehicle for enjoyment.


Which is why the works of Jackie Collins are considered among the greatest works of fiction instead of Joyce...or, no.

I'd say some things are and others not. So I may come to appreciate beer through wider exposure, but it is my appreciation of the elements of composition, that very exposure, coupled with my natural inclination in relation to forms, that makes my liking the song in question impossible. Short of altering me, through some head trauma or other mental impairment, it's not going to happen. Similarly, everything I know about sex, coupled with my inclinations, makes the thought of approaching congress within my sex impossible for me. There is no circumstance within which I would prefer it to abstinence. So if someone tells me I could choose it if I wanted, I respond that nothing could constitute that necessary step, of wanting to alter it, which seems to rather pointedly put it in the impossible category. And I'd suggest those who could entertain the step aren't so rooted in their own sexuality and would better be termed bisexual, by degrees.

Well put.

:thumb:

 

[ok doser]

I don't know what you mean. I don't enjoy it. I'm no particular fan of her voice, though she can hit the notes. As with everything I've heard from her, it's gratingly repetitive, the lyric is sophomoric, there's an equally annoying, repetitive sound in the percussion I don't care for...nothing in the melody has me wanting to reproduce it. So...not that I can see. What you'd have to alter to make it interesting would make it something else by someone else.....

What you'd have to alter to make it interesting is your willingness to find it interesting on its own merits

So if someone tells me I could choose it if I wanted, I respond that nothing could constitute that necessary step, of wanting to alter it, which seems to rather pointedly put it in the impossible category. And I'd suggest those who could entertain the step aren't so rooted in their own sexuality and would better be termed bisexual, by degrees.

there's no such thing as "bisexual", town

if one chooses to embrace perversion, they're a pervert, plain and simple

Well put.

well, no

 

[Arthur Brain]

rather, you still choose to detest peanut butter



if you chose to enjoy it, you would do things to make that happen

Ok, one response to you on this and that's it.

Wrong. I do not "choose" to detest peanut butter. I didn't "choose" to find the taste repellent as a kid or as an adult. The only way peanut butter would become palatable to me is if the taste, texture and substance were altered to the extent where it became something else altogether, which would be pretty pointless really.

I don't "choose" to dislike any number of things, from peanut butter and Beyonce songs to having the measles or missing the last bus home. TH explained in detail as to why a Beyonce song is not going to appeal and he's absolutely right. He isn't going to find anything interesting about it on its own "merits" because it's just a by the numbers formula pop song, which is all it's meant to be.

Now I totally expect you to continue with this, probably in large part to troll the thread more than anything else but your whole "argument" is a crock, which I'm sure you know already.

Anyhow, I want a troll free coupla days to see in the new year, so have a good one yourself and go train yourself to enjoy jumping into lakes.

:e4e:

 

[ok doser]

Wrong. I do not "choose" to detest peanut butter.

you choose to continue believing that you detest peanut butter

if you wanted, you could choose to do things that would lead to your enjoying it

 

[ok doser]

... go train yourself to enjoy jumping into lakes.

:e4e:

i do enjoy jumping into lakes, and rivers :idunno:


prolly dint when i was four, but I chose to keep trying it

 

[glassjester]

if you wanted, you could choose to do things that would lead to your enjoying it

:think: Like?

 

[ok doser]

:think: Like?

peanut butter?

mix it with chocolate


or ice cream! :chew:

or, in artie's case, stop putting it in his ears

 

[glassjester]

Which is why the works of Jackie Collins are considered among the greatest works of fiction instead of Joyce...or, no.

Considered by whom?

There's really no such thing as an objectively "great" work of art. It's only great if people say it's great.

but it is my appreciation of the elements of composition, that very exposure, coupled with my natural inclination in relation to forms, that makes my liking the song in question impossible.

Try singing it around a campfire (if you like campfires) with others who enjoy it - preferably people you really care about.

 

[glassjester]

peanut butter?

mix it with chocolate


or ice cream! :chew:

Not a bad idea.

I would be pretty put off eating a bowl of ketchup, but put it on some fries and I love the stuff.
Now just because I wouldn't enjoy the taste of ketchup by itself, can I really honestly say that I don't like ketchup? No, I don't think so.

I read an article a while ago about picky eaters being able to slowly cultivate a taste for foods they were previously disgusted by. I may have linked it earlier in the thread, not sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2210933/Can-teach-tastebuds-LOVE-food-HATE.html

 

[glassjester]

Curiosity initially. Don't really see what's so significant about it though.

It's significant because you consciously chose to drink something (in an attempt to enjoy it), knowing that you hadn't enjoyed it on the previous attempt.

I wouldn't expect to have the same palette as an adult as I did as a child and either way, I don't 'choose' to enjoy the beer I like.

Your choices did lead to you enjoying it though. If you'd never chosen to try to enjoy it that second time, then you'd still be saying that you don't like ale.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's significant because you consciously chose to drink something (in an attempt to enjoy it), knowing that you hadn't enjoyed it on the previous attempt.

It wasn't "in an attempt to enjoy it". Either I would or I wouldn't, and knowing how much my palette had developed since a kid it was a fair bet that I might, and I did, some of it anyway.

Your choices did lead to you enjoying it though. If you'd never chosen to try to enjoy it that second time, then you'd still be saying that you don't like ale.

The enjoyment of it itself still wasn't a choice, just like my aversion to peanut butter is out of my control despite trying it as an adult. In relation to Beyonce then it's hardly as though I haven't been exposed to her output through radio at work or TV at home along with a plethora of other pap. It simply bores me, there's nothing interesting to my ear about any of it and that again, is not a choice.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Considered by whom?

There's really no such thing as an objectively "great" work of art. It's only great if people say it's great.

Of course there is. To use two examples in relation: Beethoven's Fifth Symphony & Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring. Both undisputed masterpieces in classical music. The chances are TH prefers the fifth to the Rite whereas I'm (unsurprisingly) the other way on that. I'm not going to deny that Beethoven was a musical genius and even if neither push your particular buttons there's no disputing the genius of either.

Try singing it around a campfire (if you like campfires) with others who enjoy it - preferably people you really care about.

Oh not that again. :doh:

How the hell is that supposed to make the piece enjoyable in itself?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Not a bad idea.

I would be pretty put off eating a bowl of ketchup, but put it on some fries and I love the stuff.
Now just because I wouldn't enjoy the taste of ketchup by itself, can I really honestly say that I don't like ketchup? No, I don't think so.

I read an article a while ago about picky eaters being able to slowly cultivate a taste for foods they were previously disgusted by. I may have linked it earlier in the thread, not sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2210933/Can-teach-tastebuds-LOVE-food-HATE.html

Well, apart from anything else ketchup is generally used as a condiment so it's not likely that anyone who enjoys it would eat a bowl of it by itself. Fair play to those that do but it's not like you're averse to the stuff else you wouldn't put it on chips anyway would you? If the only way to 'choose' to enjoy peanut butter is by masking the taste of it by mixing it with something then all you're left with is a self defeating argument.

 

[glassjester]

Well, apart from anything else ketchup is generally used as a condiment so it's not likely that anyone who enjoys it would eat a bowl of it by itself.

People don't eat peanut butter by itself either, man.

Fair play to those that do but it's not like you're averse to the stuff else you wouldn't put it on chips anyway would you? If the only way to 'choose' to enjoy peanut butter is by masking the taste of it by mixing it with something then all you're left with is a self defeating argument.

Ice cream doesn't mask the taste, anymore than fries mask the taste of ketchup.

 

[glassjester]

Of course there is.

If no one on Planet Earth enjoyed the 5th symphony, then it wouldn't be great.

Oh not that again. :doh:

How the hell is that supposed to make the piece enjoyable in itself?

Re-read the article, if you'd like.

I am very fascinated by this article right now.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3915416/

 

[Arthur Brain]

If no one on Planet Earth enjoyed the 5th symphony, then it wouldn't be great.

I suggest you address TH's response to you on this and by 'respond' I mean with the same detail that he took the effort to do with you. He answered you completely on this and if all you can be bothered to do is just reply to snippets of people's posts instead of in full then you're hardly being sincere on this frankly. Nobody is selectively editing your posts so how about you afford the same courtesy in turn?

Re-read the article, if you'd like.

No thanks. I know fine well that my musical enjoyment of a piece itself is not dependent on other factors, the likes of which you constantly seem to be reduced to.