Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

[glassjester]

No, it isn't. Your "counter examples" simply miss the point. Most of your arguments have so far revolved around being able to "train" oneself to enjoy a piece of music through familiarity or that enjoyment or lack of is linked with either positive or negative associations. I'm arguing that the choice to enjoy something is something out of ones control and can't be "willed".

But you can bring about conditions that lead to you enjoying something.

Going back, when I first heard the 'Rite' I was bedridden and ill, it wasn't fun so if anything and by your own logic I should have negative connotations with the piece. I don't. It was simply a stunning piece of music and measles or no measles wasn't going to alter anything, just the same as the regular and irritating familiarity with banal pop at work didn't in any way spark enjoyment of it, anything but.

I'm not saying your associations with a piece of music are the only way (or even the primary way) that you could enjoy it. I'm saying that's one way that people can (and do) come to enjoy certain things.

This analogy you have with sport is bizarre so you need to explain it. If a team gets less points than another then they lose, if they get more they win and if it's equal (if applicable) it's a draw. What that has to do with being able to enjoy or "choose" to enjoy something is baffling.

That was sort of an aside.
Don't get too hung up on it.

Saying, "I wouldn't enjoy that song if the lyrics were different,"

is like saying, "I wouldn't have lost that game if the score was different."

It's, to use your adjective, a daft excuse.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You may be right about that.
Like Shatner doing "Rocket Man."

In a cringe worthy way perhaps...

But it wouldn't be The Lumberjack Song anymore.
The fact is - you enjoy that song.


Anyway, your Lumberjack Song example proves the point.
You're entirely capable of enjoying a song that you find musically boring, if you can find other enjoyable factors in it.

All I'm saying is that some of those extra-musical factors (like familiarity and positive associations) can be intentionally brought about.

Well, no. They aren't intentionally brought about. I don't choose to find the lyrics funny and familiarity had nothing to do with my enjoyment of it as it cracked me up the first time I saw it on TV. Nothing about the song appeals on a musical level but rather everything else and without the visuals it loses another factor also. Again, I'd never listen to an instrumental version of it.

 

[glassjester]

Well, no. They aren't intentionally brought about. I don't choose to find the lyrics funny and familiarity had nothing to do with my enjoyment of it as it cracked me up the first time I saw it on TV.

You're missing the point, here.

I am not saying that you like the Lumberjack Song due to familiarity or positive associations with it (I also loved it the first time I saw it, by the way). The Lumberjack Song just proves that you are capable of enjoying a song (you said you do enjoy the song, remember) due to non-musical factors.

Now there are other non-musical factors (that can result from one's own actions) that can lead to someone enjoying a song, too.

Consider my "Jingle Bells" example.

 

[Arthur Brain]

But you can bring about conditions that lead to you enjoying something.

Such as? And how would this apply to everything? Your familiarity argument doesn't work else I'd have found at least something to enjoy about the constant stream of pop crap I was exposed to at work. I didn't, well ok, apart from talking with others who were equally fed up of hearing it.

I'm not saying your associations with a piece of music are the only way (or even the primary way) that you could enjoy it. I'm saying that's one way that people can (and do) come to enjoy certain things.

I've never 'chosen' to enjoy a piece of music in my life. If something hits it hits and there's no will in that, just as there isn't in not. You may well form a positive association with something but it doesn't mean you enjoy the actual music itself. If you do then there's something that already appealed on some level. I've watched hours and hours of kids TV and I might derive enjoyment from the children's reactions and happiness but I ain't gonna be inclined to watch 'Peppa Pig' on my own thanks.

That was sort of an aside.
Don't get too hung up on it.

Saying, "I wouldn't enjoy that song if the lyrics were different,"

is like saying, "I wouldn't have lost that game if the score was different."

It's, to use your adjective, a daft excuse.

No, it's just a daft analogy. If Beyonce lyrics were applied to the 'Lumberjack song' then you've removed the one integral component that makes it enjoyable. The music is entirely secondary and in itself, to me at least, utterly boring. Others may love the tune as well as the lyrics which is fair enough. The outcome of a sporting fixture and pointing out the already obvious is just irrelevant.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You're missing the point, here.

I am not saying that you like the Lumberjack Song due to familiarity or positive associations with it (I also loved it the first time I saw it, by the way). The Lumberjack Song just proves that you are capable of enjoying a song (you said you do enjoy the song, remember) due to non-musical factors.

Now there are other non-musical factors (that can result from one's own actions) that can lead to someone enjoying a song, too.

Consider my "Jingle Bells" example.

Ok, let's just cut to the chase here GJ. When we first started debating over this it was about whether one could 'train' themselves to enjoy music they found utterly bland and boring. It originated with Beyonce but it could have been any manner of pop singer or band so how about instead of that; 'elevator muzak'?

Because now, it all seems to be about familiarity and other factors that have nothing to do with actually enjoying or being able to enjoy a piece of music for the music itself.

I hate elevator muzak, I don't hate elevators. Discuss.

 

[glassjester]

Such as? And how would this apply to everything? Your familiarity argument doesn't work else I'd have found at least something to enjoy about the constant stream of pop crap I was exposed to at work.

Not if you didn't want to.

I've never 'chosen' to enjoy a piece of music in my life. If something hits it hits and there's no will in that, just as there isn't in not. You may well form a positive association with something but it doesn't mean you enjoy the actual music itself. If you do then there's something that already appealed on some level. I've watched hours and hours of kids TV and I might derive enjoyment from the children's reactions and happiness but I ain't gonna be inclined to watch 'Peppa Pig' on my own thanks.

I enjoy playing chess, but I don't enjoy it on my own. :idunno:

No, it's just a daft analogy. If Beyonce lyrics were applied to the 'Lumberjack song' then you've removed the one integral component that makes it enjoyable.

But as it stands, you enjoy the song.

 

[glassjester]

I hate elevator muzak, I don't hate elevators. Discuss.

Alright.

But first tell my why I enjoy "Jingle Bells."

 

[ok doser]

by all rights, everybody should hate this song:

i don't because it evokes memories of a happy time in my childhood

 

[Arthur Brain]

Not if you didn't want to.

This is where it always seems to come back to with you, as if there's some sort of choice in it. If there was something I found enjoyable about generic pop I wouldn't deny it. I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure I didn't if I could "choose" to enjoy it. The fact is I couldn't and can't. It bores me.
Do you actually get what I'm saying to you?

I enjoy playing chess, but I don't enjoy it on my own. :idunno:

Well, "choose" to start enjoying it then, else see why you've just argued against your own position and see how bonkers it is from my perspective then.

lain:

But as it stands, you enjoy the song.

Yup, but not for any musical reason.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Alright.

But first tell my why I enjoy "Jingle Bells."

You've already explained and if you derive musical enjoyment from it as well then hey, fair enough. I'm not the one insisting that you can choose what to like as you have done with me don't forget.

 

[glassjester]

You've already explained and if you derive musical enjoyment from it as well then hey, fair enough.

But I don't.

Musically, the song is pretty plain. Boring
But I enjoy the song.

 

[Arthur Brain]

But I don't.

Musically, the song is pretty plain. Boring
But I enjoy the song.

So you don't enjoy it for any musical reason then.

 

[glassjester]

So you don't enjoy it for any musical reason then.

No, I don't think so.
If some pop star released a song with the same exact melody, I'm sure I'd hate it.

But I associate the song with Christmas, I've heard it at Christmas time all throughout my life, and I've sang along with it more times than I can count.

So when it comes on, I enjoy it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, I don't think so.
If some pop star released a song with the same exact melody, I'm sure I'd hate it.

But I associate the song with Christmas, I've heard it at Christmas time all throughout my life, and I've sang along with it more times than I can count.

So when it comes on, I enjoy it.

Sure, but once again, not for any musical reason then but other factors.

Now, how about telling me how I can "choose" to enjoy "muzak".

Otherwise start training up to enjoy playing chess against yourself.

 

[ok doser]

Now, how about telling me how I can "choose" to enjoy "muzak".

step one: you have to want to

 

[glassjester]

Now, how about telling me how I can "choose" to enjoy "muzak".

Find a group of people that are really into muzak.
Befriend them.
Spend time with them, listening to and discussing muzak.

Learn about the genre (I really hesitated to use that word).
Attend muzak conventions or... concerts? (if those things exist)

Enthusiastically share your favorite muzak compositions with your friends and loved ones.
Dance to the muzak.

Behave like a muzak fan, and you'll get there eventually.

Otherwise start training up to enjoy playing chess against yourself.

A teacher I had back in high school encouraged me to do that.
He said it's a good training exercise.

 

[glassjester]

step one: you have to want to

Right. That's pretty important.

I linked to a psych article a few pages back that agrees with you on that.

 

[ok doser]

Right. That's pretty important.

I linked to a psych article a few pages back that agrees with you on that.

artie doesn't want to, so he claims he's unable to


big difference

 

[Arthur Brain]

step one: you have to want to

Hmm, can this same "logic" be applied to stubbing a toe, having a migraine, watching paint dry? You have to want to derive enjoyment from something that is anything but?

 

[ok doser]

.... something that is anything but?

that's your subjective impression of a specific experience

i'm not interested in your subjective opinions :idunno: