Predi
New member
I never said that :doh: :doh: :doh:
Then the vast majority of the world is lost.
A great victory indeed.
Could God forgive without crucifixion?
- Thread starter Predi
- Start date
I never said that :doh: :doh: :doh:
Then the vast majority of the world is lost.
A great victory indeed.
genuineoriginal
New member
The key is not the confessing, the key is the repenting.
I am sure you know that there are much more verses about repenting.
Why is forgiving your unrepentant children for doing wrong not a good thing to do?
Because it is not love, it is indifference.
Hebrews 12:5-10 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. |
Predi
New member
Are we reading the Bible or reading something into it?
1 John 1:9 says nothing about repenting.
I was already explaining difference between forgiving and drawing no consequences in post #251.
genuineoriginal
New member
Apply the Literal Grammatical-Historical hermeneutical method to 1 John 1:9.
The literal interpretation is that John is talking only about confession.
The grammatical interpretation shows that the context of the book of 1 John is about Christians not sinning in their daily lives.
The historical interpretation shows that confession of sin was not done in a Catholic confessional, but it was done in prayer to God as a part of repentance of sin.
Taken together, the grammatical and historical interpretations overwrite the "only" part of the literal interpretation and make confession of sin part of repentance.
So, no, I am not reading something into the verse that should not be there.
KingdomRose
New member
I thought my post was pretty well thought-out, but I don't think anyone read it. Any comments?
KingdomRose
New member
Yes, but whatever he does must be reconciled with his attributes and characteristics, which include love, justice, and mercy. He cannot do things that conflict with what he is.
Predi
New member
I used to believe it too. But no one could explain to me how come there are quite a few contradictions there... once John says we lie when we say we have no sin... they he says who's born of God doesn't sin... of course churches found ways to explain that, for example by adding "habitually" to some translations...
Well, I'm past that, and now I can see clearly 1 John says nothing about "sinning in daily lives.".
As a matter of fact I can't find any apostle saying anything about it.
Predi
New member
I like that!
This rule didn't mean, "Revenge yourself on anyone who did you wrong.". It meant, "Don't go with the punishment any more than the original deed was". Don't kill when someone steals a penny from you.
Really?
Reasoning from Romans 5:19 I did not move my finger to take part in Adam so I don't have to move one to take part in Jesus.
It looks like really good news to sinners, doesn't it?
Ben Masada
New member
No one is without sin. "There has never been a man upon earth who has done only good and never sinned." (Ecclesiastes 7:20) And that includes Jesus who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life.
Predi
New member
There had never been a man... before Ecclesiastes was written.
Then there were 2, Jesus and Nonon.
Sorry, 3, I totally forgot about myself!!
If by unchanging forever, you mean that God's character does not change then yes, you're quite right!
And as such, you have answered your own question! You somehow got distracted with the Law and all but that's understandable. The point is that God is JUSTICE!
Thus the answer to the question, "Why can't He (just arbitrarily forgive everyone)?" is, "Because doing so would be unjust!"
That is the answer! It is the ONLY answer.
Resting in Him,
Clete
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If I can respond to this somewhat old post, I'm not sure it's quite that simple. In one sense, it is true that we won't find forgiveness from God if we don't ask Him. But that doesn't remove the onus from us to forgive (with or without repentance). The comparison between our forgiveness with God and our forgiving other people doesn't hold perfectly since God is perfect, sinless and pure. We, on the other hand, are imperfect, sinful and fallen. So there is something else going on when we forgive. So while it is true that we are told to forgive our brother when he comes to us and asks forgiveness (even many times a day, if necessary), the attitude we have in ourselves (for our own benefit) is emphasized a little more in Mark's gospel :
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mark 11:25
I think you'll admit that this pretty clearly speaks to the heart of one praying. It doesn't say "stop praying, go confront your brother, and if he repents then forgive him", it simply says "WHEN you stand praying, forgive...". The benefit your brother reaps by seeking your forgiveness is, it seems to me, an added component - but not the only one here. This, however, is addressing pretty clearly the necessity and benefit of forgiving others even when no forgiveness has been sought. That is, the posture of your heart even before your brother repents.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I haven't gone through all the responses, but I think the answer is simple. God's forgiveness was predicated on Christ's being slain from foundations of the world.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
So when we read this in Genesis, we see that all that went on was known by God ahead of time. He said this to Satan :
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 3:15
The Lord already had in place the "mechanism" (crude word for the thought) for forgiveness - and those who walked in faith even before Christ was manifested were rewarded for their faith in conforming to that which they did not know or fully understand. Even the prophets didn't really know what they were prophesying :
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
I Peter 1:8-12
They had sacrifices, so they understood something about forgiveness, but not that the sacrifices looked forward to Jesus. Hebrews 9 is good for this.
What onus?
Where's the biblical teaching? If it exists, how does it not contradict the many verses from several biblical authors in both the Old and New Testaments that I've already quoted?
"Be holy as I am holy."
I give you one guess who said that and in what book.
Righteousness is righteousness, Nikolai. We are never ever instructed to be more forgiving than God!
Something else, like what?
Chapter and verse, please.
Yes, we are to have an attitude of forgiveness, just as God does TOWARD THOSE WHO REPENT! We AUGHT to forgive those who repent. Jesus is teaching His audience that if they are unwilling to forgive those that they aught to forgive (i.e. the repentant) then their Heavenly Father won't forgive them either. He is teaching that it is wrong for us to refuse forgiveness to those who are sorry.
So, if we are to take this single sentence as THE teaching on forgiveness, please explain to me why Jesus and the other half dozen biblical authors that I've quoted, taught elsewhere that there is a clear and undeniable requirement for repentance?
In other words, what you've done here is proof texting. You can believe pretty much anything you want if all you need is a single sentence spoken somewhere in the bible to support your belief. "If he repents, then forgive." is the biblical teaching. If you want to say that this single sentence overcomes the whole rest of the bible then you're going to have to prove it by doing more than merely quoting that single sentence.
Take your form of reasoning and apply it to a completely different doctrine, like baptism, for example.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
So, is baptism required or not? If all you need is one sentence, take your pick.
Proof-texting is not a rational way of forming doctrine and as often as not leads to false teaching.
Please explain to me then why the bible repeatedly teaches the opposite?
Why, for example, are the saints who are in Heaven and in the very presence of God Himself, asking God how much longer they are going to have to wait for vengeance?
I agree with you that we aught to have a soft heart that is eager to forgive others. But if forgiveness is free then Jesus died for nothing. If a person is not sorry for their offense then we do no good for the offender or ourselves by forgiving them. We enable the offender which is harmful to them and we cheapen forgiveness which is harmful to our own spiritual lives and demeaning to Christ's death on the cross. The bible clearly teaches that vengeance is God's and that it is therefore just and righteous. It is good for us to look forward to vengeance and to turn offenses over to the God of justice. In this way we defend against becoming embittered and angry which is detrimental to ourselves and to our relationships with others. But turning over a sinner to God, is not at all the same thing as forgiving them. Indeed, if their offense is forgiven then vengeance would not be sought or desire or righteous!
Resting in Him,
Clete
when we forgive them
-they are not forgiven
-but
-it is now possible for us to be forgiven
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Seems to me there was a certain (fairly prominent) act of unilateral forgiveness (without repentance) indicated here :
Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
from Luke 23:34
And while we're at it, what about the times He forgave those He healed like this...
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Matthew 9:2
And what about the woman who anointed Jesus' feet with oil and washed them with her hair? No indication that she repented but simply offered an act of worship. Where is she repenting - certainly no teaching that she did as a prerequisite - yet Jesus said to her that her sins were forgiven.
Read the verse in Mark again. There is nothing being said about repentance. This is all about the one who has been wronged and what they are to do - even while they are praying. This isn't a general statement, but a specific one clearly in a specific situation in which repentance isn't even a factor. If we had read something more like "whenever you have the opportunity, forgive", that would be different. But this is speaking to the one who has something to forgive - and only that one.
I think you've misread my post a little. The standard stance is something like "unless someone comes to me and asks forgiveness, I don't need to forgive - and really can't". But that looks at forgiveness as something simpler than it is. My point is multiple :
1. There is vertical forgiveness (God forgiving man) and then there is horizontal forgiveness (man forgiving man).
2. In so-called vertical forgiveness, the primary beneficiary is man since God has no need of forgiveness and so He is the same whether He forgives or not. He is perfect and sinless whether He forgives or not.
3. In so-called horizontal forgiveness, both parties are beneficiaries since neither are sinless. The offender's forgiveness may well be predicated on him repenting first (as above, that may not necessarily be so, but God has said we do need to repent), but the offended one must recognize where he stands and upon Whose grace he stands and so that forgiveness needs to be automatic - in other words, whether the offender repents or not, that needs to be clear of the offended one's conscience lest he have something of the attitude of the unforgiving servant in Jesus' parable. Thus, God says we are to forgive even before someone comes to us to repent.
Paul, in 2 Corinthians 2 says this :
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 2:9-11
Note that Paul here says he forgives if they forgive. He doesn't need the repentance of the offender - just the forgiveness of the offended. Never is there any instruction in repentance here. It may well be implied, I agree, but the point here is that forgiveness needs to be automatic for the benefit of each individual and for the congregation - because unforgiveness spreads like cancer. It becomes bitterness....
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Hebrews 12:14-15
So for the benefit of the offended party, forgiveness needs to be automatic - not predicated on the offender's repentance.
Again, I think you have misread my post. I'm not denying a need for repentance. But the teaching doesn't make it (repentance) essential for both parties to be able to fulfill their duty (as regards repentance) before God. On the part of the offended, it should be accomplished as soon as possible - repentance pending or not. I sounds to me like you are approaching it from a rigid standpoint where repentance is necessary before either party can fulfill scripture in this issue. That I deny...and that's the point. I don't deny that the offended needs to repent, but it doesn't stop the offended party from forgiving from his heart (nor should it, and I think that's what scripture teaches).
The desire for justice need not be incongruous with forgiveness. David, for example, was forgiven but still suffered the consequences for his sin. But the issue with the vengeance of the blood of the martyrs beneath the altar has to do with reversing the evil that oppressed, persecuted and ultimately killed those that stood faithful in the cause of Christ. God never says anything about forgiving Satan - and the cry here is for the restoration of righteousness which (necessarily) will be at the expense of Satanic forces. Lest, however, we paint with too broad a brush, remember who the most prolific biblical apostle was before he was converted...
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Galatians 1:13-14
So how do you decide who you want to seek vengeance for?
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Psalm 32:1-2
We need to forgive and let God decide who is (ultimately) deserving of vengeance.
they did not know Jesus was God
Predi
New member
Asking God for forgiveness... Is asking once good enough or do I have to do it regularly? Or after each time I sin? Do I have to do it aloud? What if someone's mute?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I don't think Clete thinks there are any exceptions or "out" clauses. That may be a reason why Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but wasn't a similar declaration uttered by the first martyr recorded in scripture?
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 7:59-60
And they knew full well what they were doing (Stephen's message was the motivator).
nikolai_42
Well-known member
From what I read in scripture, God knows the heart. The one who is truly God's will not want to offend and will be quick to seek forgiveness for any wrong done against Him. The one who sees it as more of a legal thing (Repentance? Check. Ask for forgiveness? Check. etc...) is missing the point and probably isn't really repentant at heart.