ECT Clearing up the confusion of Creation!

[Stripe]

I would like for you to explain the prehistoric bones that have been found.

Do you know what the fallacy of begging the question is?

I cannot answer your question because it assumes the truth of your unsupported belief. There is no such thing as "prehistory."

I could do similarly by asking you to explain the flood-deposited bones that have been found.

 

[iamaberean]

Do you know what the fallacy of begging the question is?

I cannot answer your question because it assumes the truth of your unsupported belief. There is no such thing as "prehistory."

I could do similarly by asking you to explain the flood-deposited bones that have been found.

The bones from dinosaurs came from somewhere and the only place one can find some type of history on these animals comes from:

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

 

[iamaberean]

Amazing the things people will do to scripture to try squeeze in billions of years and compromise the gospel.
Hebrew is no different from other languages in that different words can have the same meaning.
God uses 2 different words in Genesis to describe creation.....
However evolutionists try to make a false distinction between 2 words than often have the same meaning. (Create and made)

How did evolutionists get in this post, no one here has said anything of that, except you!

 

[6days]

How did evolutionists get in this post, no one here has said anything of that, except you!

You!
You are TRYING to compromise what scripture says with secular ideas involving evolutionism and billions of years.

And... you ignored the point that you try to force meanings upon words that scripture does not support. The words 'create' and 'made' can be used interchangeably. ...and they are used interchangeably in scripture.

 

[Derf]

Really?
...
He created "in beginning" and on the fifth and sixth day, but not on the first through fourth days.

Until we trust that God knows what He is doing in recording what He says He did in Genesis 1..... we will remain confused.

Or rather those who privately interpret scripture to say that there were six days of creation will remain confused.

God did not create anything on the first through the fourth days.

He said, made, divided, etc, but He did not create on those days

Check it out for yourself.

But Exodus 20:11 says "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is...", and it uses the "asah" term. So what does it buy you to say to that God only "created" in Gen 1:1, If it only took Him 6 days to do all that "forming" and "dividing", etc. such that all stars/galaxies/planets/mountains/oceans/animals/birds/dinosaurs/trees/fish/whales/... were "formed" from some indecipherable material that was created from nothing prior to that first day?

Surely you would have to admit there's a one-to-one correlation between the 6 days of Gen 1 and the 6 days of Ex 20:11. And with the heavens included in Ex 20:11 (and all that is in the heavens), you could postulate that there was a great catastrophe that wiped out the earth between Gen 1:1 and following, but then you have to postulate that all of the heavens were also wiped out. Could the earth withstand a catastrophe that wipes out the rest of the heavens, not to mention the reforming of them???

 

[Hawkins]

It confused me because I couldn't understand why God would bury bones in the ground of species that are never recorded in the bible but very obliviously were here. I know this sounds 'so spiritual' but when I don't understand something I ask God to show me.

How many species ever existed on earth? Do you expect the Bible record them all?

In Gen 1 the only solution is that the days were not 24 hour days, they were thousands of years in man's understanding, but little time to God.

No. First you need to understand what 'time' could be. In science, time is rather a delusion. That says no humans actually understand the true nature of time.

If no human understands time, such that you are no where qualified to define what 'time' is.

So when mankind makes the assumption that earth is only a few thousand years old, they have to believe that other men are lying simply because they themselves don't understand God's word.

'a few thousand years' is deduced from the biblical accounts of genealogy. Genealogy can only be used as a human account of witnessing that Jesus is the descendant of Adam and David. Genealogy has nothing to do with year calculation.

Besides, human dating method is based on the assumption that the radioactive elements are well conserved. It subsequently relies on the assumption that no time-space manipulation has been done to earth. That is, earth must be in its current position all the 'times' for these radioactive elements to be well conserved for the dating purpose.

However, God did manipulated time-space. He made time frozen in a war between Israel and its enemy.

 

[iamaberean]

You!
You are TRYING to compromise what scripture says with secular ideas involving evolutionism and billions of years.

And... you ignored the point that you try to force meanings upon words that scripture does not support. The words 'create' and 'made' can be used interchangeably. ...and they are used interchangeably in scripture.

Let me be very clear. God created everything and I do not believe in evolution. What I do believe is that this planet earth, and people have been here much longer than 8,000 years. I can't say how much longer for the word of God does give us a clue to that but the Hebrew word day can also mean a span of time.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

day
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

There are other places in the bible where day also means a period of time.

 

[Hawkins]

Let me be very clear. God created everything and I do not believe in evolution. What I do believe is that this planet earth, and people have been here much longer than 8,000 years. I can't say how much longer for the word of God does give us a clue to that but the Hebrew word day can also mean a span of time.

Humans don't know what time is, and human dating methods may be flawed. So "longer than 8,000 years" is just an application of the human concept of time which is proven to be wrong by science.

 

[Derf]

However, God did manipulated time-space. He made time frozen in a war between Israel and its enemy.

God may very well have manipulated time-space, but I don't think that passage is a slam-dunk case of it. There are various theories for what God did to make the sun stand still.

 

[Hawkins]

God may very well have manipulated time-space, but I don't think that passage is a slam-dunk case of it. There are various theories for what God did to make the sun stand still.

So you mean you know how exactly God made the sun stand still scientifically such that the possibility of time-space manipulation can be ruled out?

 

[patrick jane]

God may very well have manipulated time-space, but I don't think that passage is a slam-dunk case of it. There are various theories for what God did to make the sun stand still.

Joshua 10:13 KJV

 

[Ktoyou]

I would like for you to explain the prehistoric bones that have been found.
..........
We can not deny that bones of dinosaurs do exist. If that doesn't mean they walked the earth, what else could it mean?

Maybe it means you should study and become a palaeontologist; I doubt you has the sensibility to be a theologian.

 

[Derf]

So you mean you know how exactly God made the sun stand still scientifically such that the possibility of time-space manipulation can be ruled out?

I wish. All I'm saying is that it doesn't require a manipulation of time-space to give the appearance that the sun is standing still.

For instance. God could have stopped the earth from turning. I don't know how He would do that, but I read of an archaeologist that had found reports in historical records describing extensive flooding in the area east of the Mediterranean Sea and east of other bodies of water at what he thought was the correct time-frame. I don't know if he's correct, but if God stopped the earth from turning, there could be significant flooding due to inertia of the water.

I heard another theory that a large celestial object could have passed by the earth (provided by God, no doubt), causing it to precess in its rotation so that the sun would stay in the same spot in the sky, but the earth would change its orientation. This seems far fetched, as does the previous theory, but the whole story is outside of what we experience or observe in planetary motion.

Time itself didn't stop, as the Israelites continued fighting their enemies. Just the "clock" stopped (that big yellow thing in the sky). Actually 2 clocks stopped (or were slowed down), as the moon was also in view and stayed put (Jos 10:12).

 

[relaff]

To me the basic problem is that we're trying to figure out how God did it. But I think this effort is futile (at least after a certain point). Who am I to know which tools (or none) He used. Who am I to know how long one day is for God, who was here before that whole thing started. I know that one day for me is 24 hours, but who I am to try to force my standards upon God (not that it would work).

What matters to me is that He did it, not how. For me the real beef is, when Adam and Eve were started our sinning business and everything changed for mankind. Of course knew it beforehand, but He had to do it anyway, so we would believe it, too, and not look for excuses (well, many of us are still doing it and I may well be part of that without realizing).

 

[Derf]

Joshua 10:13 KJV

I'm sorry, I missed the point of your reply. Are you pointing out to me that God really did make the sun and moon stand still? I have no problem with that. But Hawkins made a bit of a jump to equate that with some kind of time-space manipulation. I'm not saying Hawkins is wrong, but that the passage isn't detailed enough to make that jump.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Hawkins means by "time-space manipulation".

 

[iamaberean]

Maybe it means you should study and become a paleontologist; I doubt you has the sensibility to be a theologian.

No, I am not a theologian, just one who has questions. I have never asked God a question that I didn't eventually find the answer to. How do I know these thing are true? Because they make sense and they agree with His word.

 

[iamaberean]

To me the basic problem is that we're trying to figure out how God did it. But I think this effort is futile (at least after a certain point). Who am I to know which tools (or none) He used. Who am I to know how long one day is for God, who was here before that whole thing started. I know that one day for me is 24 hours, but who I am to try to force my standards upon God (not that it would work).

What matters to me is that He did it, not how. For me the real beef is, when Adam and Eve were started our sinning business and everything changed for mankind. Of course knew it beforehand, but He had to do it anyway, so we would believe it, too, and not look for excuses (well, many of us are still doing it and I may well be part of that without realizing).

It really doesn't matter how God went about doing things but there are so many things that people preach as gospel that doesn't agree with scripture. When they do that they close their mind to truth. One should always keep an open mind.

Nobody comes to God with enough knowledge to do much of anything except listen. If one has a teacher that hasn't studied for their self then they will teach only what they have heard and that is, many times, wrong. Sometimes it is a salvation issue!

I would ask you to read the OP again and notice I pointed out that 'LORD God' is not used in Gen 1. Why is that important? Because Gen 1 is about creation and Gen 2 is about Covenant creation. You see the only time 'LORD God' is used is when it is referring to him being the God of the Jews, and he did not refer to himself as the Jewish God in Gen 1.

 

[Derf]

The confusion of creation explained.

Gen 1 is about the creation of all things by God. It is explained to be done in six days. This everyone agrees, but the debate comes here on the length of those six days. Some say six 24 hour days. Others believe the days to be thousands of years. This, for the one who believes 24 hour days, creates confusion. That is because animal and the bones of man have been found to be many thousands of years old.

Let us not be confused, the time frame is not really important, in one respect, if we just believe that God created all things. The real confusion comes because most believe that the sixth day refers to the man named Adam, not mankind. How could this line of thinking cause confusion?

1. God doesn’t give a name to mankind, just that they were to go into all the world.

2. Gen 2 is not a repeat of Gen 1, just not in the same order.

Let us try to clear up these two points.

In Gen 1, it speaks of creation but in Gen 2 it speaks of forming. One should not think these two words are interchangeable because God intended for us to be able to understand and avoid confusion.
a. Creation is to make something from nothing.
b. Forming is to make something from something else.

In Gen 1 it points out that ‘God’ created man. In Gen 2 it points out that ‘LORD God’ formed Adam from the earth and put him in a garden east of Eden, not to venture into all the earth as in Gen 1.

a. Since ‘God’ is a plurality it does not have the same meaning as ‘LORD God’. I am not saying there are two different God’s , as we think of God, just that the meanings change.

b. How would a Jewish Rabbi explain the difference? He would tell you that there are many Gods (spirits} but only one ‘LORD God’.

So here is where we are at, God created man on the sixth day and in the seventh day LORD God formed Adam from the earth and Eve from Adam’s rib. May I also point out that on the seventh day LORD God also formed the animals from the field (domestic animals).

In conclusion:

Gen 1 is about the creation of all things.

Gen 2 is about covenant creation. This is the time LORD God made a covenant with Adam and his descendants. Most figure that the time of the covenant until now has been around 7000 years. But from the time God created all things, one can not conclude this without causing:

CONFUSION!

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion

[/COLOR]

I just read your reply to Relaff, and you pointed back to your OP about the covenant vs the "all things" creation, so I went back to re-read, too.

Can you tell me how separating the "covenant" creation account (CA) from the "all things" account (AA) is helpful to avoid the confusion?

The AA seems to specify the number of days fairly clearly with the morning and evening/first day/second day bit. And then you distinguish "man" from "Adam", and say that God formed Adam on the seventh day (apparently with a bunch of animals, too). Are you saying you think God created "man" sometime much before he created Adam? Or that he created man and Adam at the same time, but "man" included more than just Adam?

I guess I'm more confused than before.

Seems to me that it would be hard to make that separation with the details we have from Gen 2, with God forming Adam from the ground (making him a separate creation from "man" in Gen 1) and Eve from Adam (making her a separate creation from the male and female in Gen 1).

 

[iamaberean]

I just read your reply to Relaff, and you pointed back to your OP about the covenant vs the "all things" creation, so I went back to re-read, too.

Can you tell me how separating the "covenant" creation account (CA) from the "all things" account (AA) is helpful to avoid the confusion?

The AA seems to specify the number of days fairly clearly with the morning and evening/first day/second day bit. And then you distinguish "man" from "Adam", and say that God formed Adam on the seventh day (apparently with a bunch of animals, too). Are you saying you think God created "man" sometime much before he created Adam? Or that he created man and Adam at the same time, but "man" included more than just Adam?

I guess I'm more confused than before.

Seems to me that it would be hard to make that separation with the details we have from Gen 2, with God forming Adam from the ground (making him a separate creation from "man" in Gen 1) and Eve from Adam (making her a separate creation from the male and female in Gen 1).

Derf,

You probably need to go back and read all my posts. In summary, God created man in the sixth day, then he promply told them to go into all the earth and replenish it. Because of the language used it implies more than one. "let us make man in our image and let them" but even if there were just a male and a female, God still told them to go into all the earth.

In Gen 2 LORD God formed a man from the ground (he took something he had already created and formed it into a man). Then he took a rib from Adam and formed a female, Eve. He did not tell them to go into all the earth, but he placed them in a garden east of Eden.

Two different stories and two different people, one of creation the other of a covenant.

As for the time frame, day in Hebrew can be any length. Here is example:

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Generations of heaven and earth in the day -- that God made the earth and heavens.

 

[6days]

What I do believe is that this planet earth, and people have been here much longer than 8,000 years.

So you believe the genealogies from Adam to Christ are incorrect?*

I can't say how much longer for the word of God does give us a clue to that but the Hebrew word day can also mean a span of time.

Yes, the Hebrew word for 'day' (yom) has a variety of meanings as it does in English. The meaning is determined by context. The word 'day' in Genesis 1 does not allow for anything other than a normal day of daylight and darkness. (Other places in scripture the word refers to longer, or shorter periods but always easy to understand in context)