ECT Clearing up the confusion of Creation!

[Stripe]

I don't think I know the full meaning of the Gen 1 and 2 texts...

The text from Gen 2:4 is one of two things: it is either a footer, describing the previous verses, or it is a header, describing the following verses. I found 9 other uses of the same phrase in the rest of the book of Genesis.

Good spotting.

Have a read of this.

:thumb:

 

[Derf]

Good spotting.

Have a read of this.

:thumb:

Thanks. I'd seen some stuff that is essentially what that link refers to, but from different sources. It makes a lot of sense to me, and is in keeping with later books that refer to non-extant works such as the "book of Jasher".

 

[Stripe]

Please share.

 

[iamaberean]

The text from Gen 2:4 is one of two things: it is either a footer, describing the previous verses, or it is a header, describing the following verses. I found 9 other uses of the same phrase in the rest of the book of Genesis:
Gen 6:9
Gen 10:1
Gen 11:10
Gen 11:27
Gen 25:12
Gen 25:19
Gen 36:1
Gen 36:9
Gen 37:2

In each of these 9 cases, the phrase indicates that the information is forthcoming, that it is a header for the following information, rather than a footer describing what came before.

Assuming Gen 2:4 is like all the other "these are the generations" passages in Genesis, the "generations" it is talking about would have to be the following verses, rather than the preceding ones. I could be wrong, but it's a strong precedence to have to break.

The scriptures you listed were the generations of men.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Now, search again for 'generations of the heavens and of the earth' Gen 2:4 is the only one I found.

bible hermenutics:

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13864/what-are-the-generations-in-genesis-24

 

[Stripe]

[COLOR="Blue"]The scriptures you listed were the generations of men. [COLOR="Black"]Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, [/COLOR]Now, search again for 'generations of the heavens and of the earth' Gen 2:4 is the only one I found.[/COLOR]bible hermenutics:[url]http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13864/what-are-the-generations-in-genesis-24[/url]

So you're just going to ignore everything that shows you wrong, ie, everything.

 

[Derf]

The scriptures you listed were the generations of men.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Now, search again for 'generations of the heavens and of the earth' Gen 2:4 is the only one I found.

bible hermenutics:

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13864/what-are-the-generations-in-genesis-24

I don't understand your point.

I could say the same thing about Gen 11:27--that's the only "these are the generations of Terah". (Go ahead--try searching for "generations of Terah".) But it doesn't change the conclusion that the words in all the additional cases I mentioned seem to introduce an upcoming topic, rather than conclude a previous topic. Therefore, the most likely reading of Gen 2:4 is that those words apply to the upcoming account rather than the foregoing account.

 

[iamaberean]

I don't understand your point.

I could say the same thing about Gen 11:27--that's the only "these are the generations of Terah". (Go ahead--try searching for "generations of Terah".) But it doesn't change the conclusion that the words in all the additional cases I mentioned seem to introduce an upcoming topic, rather than conclude a previous topic. Therefore, the most likely reading of Gen 2:4 is that those words apply to the upcoming account rather than the foregoing account.

I don't understand your point, my point is 'heaven and earth' is not a man.

 

[Derf]

I don't understand your point, my point is 'heaven and earth' is not a man.

<sigh>
My point is that just because the text is talking about 'heaven and earth" doesn't mean the words get to mean something different than in other places in the text. If you will recall your post:

The bones from dinosaurs came from somewhere and the only place one can find some type of history on these animals comes from:

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

you seemed to think that the words "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth" in Gen 2:4 applies strictly to the passage in Gen 1:1-2:3 and not to the passage in Gen 2:5 and following. But the normal usage (and I didn't find any abnormal usages, but I didn't look that hard) is that "these are the generations of" applies to the text that follows, not the text that precedes it.

Therefore, Gen 2:4 more specifically applies to Gen 2:5 and following.
Therefore, though the passage in Gen 2:5 and following might be covenantal in nature as you supposed early on, it doesn't follow that it can be divorced from the description in Gen 1:1-2:3.

 

[Interplanner]

Since creation is so vast, it makes sense that there would be at least two renditions of how it came about. Or that there would be detail that cannot be seen from one angle.

Moses often has this structure:
1, title or summary
2, pre-existing condition
3, new action
4, optional summary

 

[iamaberean]

The confusion of creation explained.

Gen 1 is about the creation of all things by God. It is explained to be done in six days. This everyone agrees, but the debate comes here on the length of those six days. Some say six 24 hour days. Others believe the days to be thousands of years. This, for the one who believes 24 hour days, creates confusion. That is because animal and the bones of man have been found to be many thousands of years old.

Let us not be confused, the time frame is not really important, in one respect, if we just believe that God created all things. The real confusion comes because most believe that the sixth day refers to the man named Adam, not mankind. How could this line of thinking cause confusion?

1. God doesn’t give a name to mankind, just that they were to go into all the world.

2. Gen 2 is not a repeat of Gen 1, just not in the same order.

Let us try to clear up these two points.

In Gen 1, it speaks of creation but in Gen 2 it speaks of forming. One should not think these two words are interchangeable because God intended for us to be able to understand and avoid confusion.
a. Creation is to make something from nothing.
b. Forming is to make something from something else.

In Gen 1 it points out that ‘God’ created man. In Gen 2 it points out that ‘LORD God’ formed Adam from the earth and put him in a garden east of Eden, not to venture into all the earth as in Gen 1.

a. Since ‘God’ is a plurality it does not have the same meaning as ‘LORD God’. I am not saying there are two different God’s , as we think of God, just that the meanings change.

b. How would a Jewish Rabbi explain the difference? He would tell you that there are many Gods (spirits} but only one ‘LORD God’.

So here is where we are at, God created man on the sixth day and in the seventh day LORD God formed Adam from the earth and Eve from Adam’s rib. May I also point out that on the seventh day LORD God also formed the animals from the field (domestic animals).

In conclusion:

Gen 1 is about the creation of all things.

Gen 2 is about covenant creation. This is the time LORD God made a covenant with Adam and his descendants. Most figure that the time of the covenant until now has been around 7000 years. But from the time God created all things, one can not conclude this without causing:

CONFUSION!

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion

To eliminate much confusion learn how to read the bible with this free book on
Bible Hermeneutics.

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...neutics/milton_terry_biblicalhermeneutics.pdf

The belief that creation days are long periods of time is not just a recent interpretation of the scriptures, but was prevalent since the first century. Dr. Ross has published a book entitled Creation and Time, which documents in detail what first century Jewish scholars and the early Christian church fathers said regarding their interpretation of creation chronology. Jewish scholars include Philo and Josephus, while Christian fathers include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus (through writings of Ambrose), Clement, Origen, Lactantius, Victorinus, Methodius, Augustine, Eusebius, Basil, and Ambrose. Among this group, nearly all acknowledged the likelihood that the creation days were longer than 24 hours.

 

[Interplanner]

The belief that creation days are long periods of time is not just a recent interpretation of the scriptures, but was prevalent since the first century. Dr. Ross has published a book entitled Creation and Time, which documents in detail what first century Jewish scholars and the early Christian church fathers said regarding their interpretation of creation chronology. Jewish scholars include Philo and Josephus, while Christian fathers include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus (through writings of Ambrose), Clement, Origen, Lactantius, Victorinus, Methodius, Augustine, Eusebius, Basil, and Ambrose. Among this group, nearly all acknowledged the likelihood that the creation days were longer than 24 hours.

But Ross and all do badly on 1:2, about 'formless and void'. Because it would conflict with the process of evolution being identical to creation, and would introduce a redemptive action to the picture of the creation of the world (with backstory and other forces at work prior to creation). So Ross and all are not nearly supernatural enough. The YEC people, for their part, are quite supernatural but isolated and also don't want to deal with what 'formless and void' actually involves. Their world is just God and mankind, and nothing else is out there.

 

[God's Truth]

I think you should also consider Behemoth in Job 15:40 and following, as well as Leviathan in Job 41:1 and following.

As pointed out elsewhere, the bible doesn't tell us every kind of animal that God created, so it shouldn't surprise us that we find bones of animals we don't recognize sometimes.

As for scientists, you can't equate their interpretation of the evidence with the evidence itself. The evidence is the bones of the dinosaurs--no question that they exist, and no question that some animal died at some point to leave those bones behind--but how and when the bones got there is up to some interpretation.

The animal described in Job is a dragon. It is Satan.

 

[God's Truth]

As for any scenario of other people being created before Adam and Eve, or after, or even at the same time...it cannot be, since the Bible says Eve is the mother of ALL living.

Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

[iamaberean]

As for any scenario of other people being created before Adam and Eve, or after, or even at the same time...it cannot be, since the Bible says Eve is the mother of ALL living.

Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

God created men in Gen 1, male and female he created them and then told them to go and replenish the earth.

LORD God formed Adam from the dirt and: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The man that was formed and placed in the garden is the one who was given a living soul. That might sound harsh, but God's people have always been set apart from the rest. Even today it is the same.

 

[Interplanner]

God created men in Gen 1, male and female he created them and then told them to go and replenish the earth.

LORD God formed Adam from the dirt and: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The man that was formed and placed in the garden is the one who was given a living soul. That might sound harsh, but God's people have always been set apart from the rest. Even today it is the same.

???
do you mean the woman had no soul?

 

[iamaberean]

???
do you mean the woman had no soul?

Woman was formed from Adam, she took own the same living soul that he had.

Today the living soul is given when we are born again of the water and the Spirit. As I said earlier, God's people are set apart from the non-believers. Not everyone has a living soul.

It's not God's will that any should perish. It is our own will that separates us from God and his gift for all mankind.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Most Christians, including you, believe that heaven and earth has only been around 8,000 years

I would say that the earth is between 6-10,000 years old.

when all the evidence says millions of years.

NONE of the evidence points to millions of years.

Most Christian, including you, believe that mankind has only been here on earth for less than 3000 years

I don't know any Christian who believes that.

when the evidence shows most likely 50 to 60 thousand years.

The evidence does not show that. In fact, the oldest known civilization existed only about 4-5 thousand years or so ago. Even the Chinese dynasties only go back about 2.5 thousand years before Christ's birth.

Most Christians, including you, ignore the fact that the bible never says the seventh day ended.

The Bible also never says anything about Jesus' childhood. Does that mean it never happened? :think:

Most Christians don't know, including you, there is a difference, in meanings, between the word 'God' and 'LORD God' in the Old Testament.

What difference does it make? They both refer to God.

That means most Christians, including you, can not explain away the evidence of an old heaven and earth which does not agree with your understanding of a literal six day creation and a never ending seventh day.

That means most Christians, including you, are still confused.

I think the only one confused here is you.

So draw a graph representing the millions of years that you think the earth is. ( Actually stellar evolution says about 4.5 billion...with a 'B')
Now, on your graph, chart where you believe humans came on the scene. (That graph will show humans at the end of the graph)

OK, now...
Let's draw a graph representing what Biblical creation shows.
We will draw a graph representing the 6,000 years from Adam to now.
Now, on our graph, we chart where the Bible says humans came on the scene, the 6th day. (This graph will show humans at the very beginning of the graph)

Now let's see what Jesus says...
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."

That verse right there disproves anyone who says that Creation took place over anything longer than 6 days.

Nope. The evidence shows that things are all at most 6,000 years old.

I'd say a minimum of 6000, but maximum of 10,000.

Here is another point that confirms my view. The Jews also believe there are two parts of creation. The first scripture they quote is:
Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
The days of old refers to Adam and Eve while the years of many generations refers to Gen 1.
Very informative site at.
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Muslims also believe that Gen 1 and Gen 2 are referring to different events.

No wonder you're having so many issues understanding the Bible. Using other religions to explain the Bible is like trying to use a wrench to weld together a sculpture.

The animal described in Job is a dragon. It is Satan.

Not sure why you jump to the conclusion that the dragon described in Job is Satan... God is literally describing an animal that is currently extinct, not the Devil.

God created men in Gen 1, male and female he created them and then told them to go and replenish the earth.

LORD God formed Adam from the dirt and: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The man that was formed and placed in the garden is the one who was given a living soul. That might sound harsh, but God's people have always been set apart from the rest. Even today it is the same.

So, Adam was formed of the dust of the Ground, and given a soul, then placed in the Garden? That sounds about right. Unless that's not what you're saying...

 

[God's Truth]

God created men in Gen 1, male and female he created them and then told them to go and replenish the earth.

LORD God formed Adam from the dirt and: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The man that was formed and placed in the garden is the one who was given a living soul. That might sound harsh, but God's people have always been set apart from the rest. Even today it is the same.

A person just cannot get around it that Eve is the mother of all living.

Our spirits make our physical bodies a living soul.

Without our spirit our bodies are dead.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


There is no such thing as spiritless people who are some kind of sub humans.

 

[iamaberean]

1 rotation of the earth = 1 day

there was evening and there was morning

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Earth brought forth from the seed that was in itself. That didn't happen in a 24 hour period.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Same here.

We all know, or should, that there is no scripture that says "And the evening and the morning were the seventh day.' In the year 2000 it marked that God has dealt with his people now for six thousand years, that would be six days. Sometime soon, He will return, as He has promised to his children, to set up his kingdom here on earth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Earth brought forth from the seed that was in itself. That didn't happen in a 24 hour period.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Same here.

We all know, or should, that there is no scripture that says "And the evening and the morning were the seventh day.' In the year 2000 it marked that God has dealt with his people now for six thousand years, that would be six days. Sometime soon, He will return, as He has promised to his children, to set up his kingdom here on earth.

That's quite an intellectual jump you make there... But it's not Bible based.

Can I recommend a series of bible studies to you?

http://store.kgov.com/monthly-bible-studies-1/



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