Church government is not hierarchical

Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
iouae said:
Organisation and structure - great.
Hierarchy dominating/domineering/fleecing believers - not great.
Listen to Philippians - great.
Listen to some man-made church rules - not great.
Click to expand...

One of the things you will find about the Orthodox Faith is the love the people in it have for giving their first-fruits to God in their Churches... They will live as beggars and off-scourings of the earth if they can just give their widow's mite to the poor and to God's Houses of prayer...

You seem to have pretty much hardened your heart to the Living Organism that is the Body of Christ on this earth, apparently because of the organization and structures it has established... You apprently either cannot or will not see past the sins of those in the churches you have encountered, and carry great angst against them...

For my first 36 years of life, I came to hate not only Churches, but all Christians, for the same reason - All I could see were judgmental hypocrites strutting their bigotry as moral superiority... I had a hardened heart toward them... God, in His great Mercy, has given me another 36 years to recover, which will complete this next year, and who knows how long after that?

I was never so scandalized as I was when God told me I am a Christian, and that He is the Christian God... I was utterly dismayed... I told Him: "I don't even LIKE Christians!", and He simply said: "Do not attack them." I complained: "Who will minister unto their Ministers? These guys are seriously messed up!" And He said again: "Do not attack them."

He then, over the next 6 months, led me to the Orthodox Faith... Of which I was unaware... A Haven and Retreat of sanity and love and worship and God... There is no sin you will not find in the Church, and it matters not a whit... Because God is with is, Who overcomes sin and death in us...

So I appreciate your angst with "organized religion"... To the degree that the faithful have become an 'organized religion', to that very degree they have fallen away from the Faith of our Lord...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her,
"Woman, believe me, the hour is coming,
When ye shall neither in this mountain,
Nor yet at Jerusalem,
Worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what:
We know what we worship:
For salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour is coming,
And now is,
When the true worshipers
Shall worship the Father
In Spirit and in Truth:
For the Father is seeking
Those who are worshiping Him.

24 God is Spirit:
And they that worship Him
must worship Him
In Spirit and in Truth.
Click to expand...

:thumb:



A.
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
iouae said:
Let us now look at some pathological ways
that hierarchies exercise their authority over believers.
Click to expand...

You can spend your lifetime looking at these...

And you will be no closer to God...

Love is not the remembrance of wrongs...

God IS Love...


Arsenios
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
iouae said:
Organisation and structure - great.
Hierarchy dominating/domineering/fleecing believers - not great.
Listen to Philippians - great.
Listen to some man-made church rules - not great.
Click to expand...
Letter to the Philippians = a man-made church's rules.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
Arsenios said:
One of the things you will find about the Orthodox Faith is the love the people in it have for giving their first-fruits to God in their Churches... They will live as beggars and off-scourings of the earth if they can just give their widow's mite to the poor and to God's Houses of prayer...

You seem to have pretty much hardened your heart to the Living Organism that is the Body of Christ on this earth, apparently because of the organization and structures it has established... You apprently either cannot or will not see past the sins of those in the churches you have encountered, and carry great angst against them...

For my first 36 years of life, I came to hate not only Churches, but all Christians, for the same reason - All I could see were judgmental hypocrites strutting their bigotry as moral superiority... I had a hardened heart toward them... God, in His great Mercy, has given me another 36 years to recover, which will complete this next year, and who knows how long after that?

I was never so scandalized as I was when God told me I am a Christian, and that He is the Christian God... I was utterly dismayed... I told Him: "I don't even LIKE Christians!", and He simply said: "Do not attack them." I complained: "Who will minister unto their Ministers? These guys are seriously messed up!" And He said again: "Do not attack them."

He then, over the next 6 months, led me to the Orthodox Faith... Of which I was unaware... A Haven and Retreat of sanity and love and worship and God... There is no sin you will not find in the Church, and it matters not a whit... Because God is with is, Who overcomes sin and death in us...

So I appreciate your angst with "organized religion"... To the degree that the faithful have become an 'organized religion', to that very degree they have fallen away from the Faith of our Lord...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios
Click to expand...

That was beautiful!
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
SaulToPaul said:
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that SOMEHOW you are trying to turn that into a "gotcha"!

Well, it's an epic fail.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Arsenios said:
One of the things you will find about the Orthodox Faith is the love the people in it have for giving their first-fruits to God in their Churches... They will live as beggars and off-scourings of the earth if they can just give their widow's mite to the poor and to God's Houses of prayer...

You seem to have pretty much hardened your heart to the Living Organism that is the Body of Christ on this earth, apparently because of the organization and structures it has established... You apprently either cannot or will not see past the sins of those in the churches you have encountered, and carry great angst against them...

For my first 36 years of life, I came to hate not only Churches, but all Christians, for the same reason - All I could see were judgmental hypocrites strutting their bigotry as moral superiority... I had a hardened heart toward them... God, in His great Mercy, has given me another 36 years to recover, which will complete this next year, and who knows how long after that?

I was never so scandalized as I was when God told me I am a Christian, and that He is the Christian God... I was utterly dismayed... I told Him: "I don't even LIKE Christians!", and He simply said: "Do not attack them." I complained: "Who will minister unto their Ministers? These guys are seriously messed up!" And He said again: "Do not attack them."

He then, over the next 6 months, led me to the Orthodox Faith... Of which I was unaware... A Haven and Retreat of sanity and love and worship and God... There is no sin you will not find in the Church, and it matters not a whit... Because God is with is, Who overcomes sin and death in us...

So I appreciate your angst with "organized religion"... To the degree that the faithful have become an 'organized religion', to that very degree they have fallen away from the Faith of our Lord...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios
Click to expand...

That was beautiful - except the first paragraph which set off every alarm bell.
 
Last edited:
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
iouae said:
The first paragraph ... set off every alarm bell.
Click to expand...



First Paragraph:

One of the things you will find about the Orthodox Faith
is the love the people in it have
for giving their first-fruits to God in their Churches...
They will live as beggars and off-scourings of the earth
if they can just give their widow's mite to the poor
and to God's Houses of prayer...



29.jpg


We forsake the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why would we build beautiful homes and ugly Churches?

Did not Paul tell us to live as beggars and off-scourings here?

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world,
and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake,
but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak,
but ye are strong;
ye are honourable,
but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst,
and are naked, and are buffeted,
and have no certain dwelling place;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we entreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the off-scouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
brewmama said:
Whenever a non-believer finds God it is beautiful. Do you not agree?
Click to expand...

I knew God well -

Fourteen years at that time...

And I knew for an indisputable fact that He was not the God of the Christians...

And I was wrong...

Glory to God in all things!

A.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Arsenios said:


First Paragraph:

One of the things you will find about the Orthodox Faith
is the love the people in it have
for giving their first-fruits to God in their Churches...
They will live as beggars and off-scourings of the earth
if they can just give their widow's mite to the poor
and to God's Houses of prayer...



Why would we build beautiful homes and ugly Churches?
Click to expand...

Where in the Bible does it say to live as beggars, to build beautiful churches?

You seem to think it a noble idea, that people give their everything to the church, till they are down to their last mite, which they can give too. THAT is cult thinking! So we end up with people in squalor while the church is in finery. Or the Catholic idea.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
If, dear reader, you think it's normal to give all your money to the church so that you are living in poverty, and the church is living it up, THEN YOU ARE IN A CULT!! Run, hide, do whatever it takes. You are sitting on the event horizon of a black hole. The cult will suck you in, stretch you like spaghetti and tear you apart, till you will disappear from all hope of rescue. I know, because I have been there and done that. Luckily I escaped the immense pull of my cult which demanded every cent I earned.

The widows mite never went to Christ or Christianity. It went to the temple.
Nowhere in the Bible is one told to give your last mite so that you go home to an empty refrigerator and hungry children. That is not biblical. Biblical is to help the poor. If you are the poor, help yourself first.

If you or your family are starving because of your reckless giving to the church YOU ARE AN INFIDEL.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Why did God commend the widow who gave a mite?
So that the poor who have little to give, realise that their small offering is valued by God.
This type of reckless giving was never encouraged by Paul.

Paul set the example of ministers working at a real job not to be chargeable to the congregants.

2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

Nowhere did Christ endorse the idea of church buildings, let alone ones resembling a palace.

When Christ told the rich young man of Matt 19 to go, sell all he had and follow Christ, that was a specific call to apostleship - not an instruction to the average believer.

Likewise the widows mite was Christ observing what folks of their own volition, not commanded by any scripture, decided to give to God. Christ was just a passive observer commenting on the extent of her giving. One swallow doth not a summer make. Look at the rest of the Bible to see that disciples in all the Gentile world and Jewish world NEVER lived in poverty or obedience regarding this as a normal state. They lived normal lives.

Save yourself from cult thinking!
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
So here you can plainly see the consequences of a person spending his entire life dedicated and consecrated to this Faith - When one gets old, the truth of his or her life will show forth, and here you can pretty much see what happens when a person lives their whole life in a monastery and is looking at the end of their life:



12.jpg



Attentive, engaged, genuine, and joyful...

And pushing 80 I should think?

A.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Arsenios

I am glad you had a wonderful life in a monastery.

Nowhere in the Bible does it encourage living in a monastery or asceticism.

Rather we are told to be in the world, but not of the world, engaging with the world, preaching the Gospel to all the world.

I believe one "scores more brownie points in heaven" by giving someone a glass of water, rather than spending the day fasting.

There are two approaches. One is to focus on fasting, and rituals, which is all self-centred on increasing one's own righteousness.

The other approach is to be others focused, to serve in a soup kitchen, getting dirty, perhaps being tempted and making mistakes. It is this second type of "righteous life" which I believe Christianity encourages, rather than the Pharisaical focus on washing hands, fasting, tassels, chief seats in the synagogue etc. Self-centred righteousness such as that which monasticism encourages is NOT biblical. Even in the OT it was not biblical.
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
iouae said:
Where in the Bible does it say to live as beggars, to build beautiful churches?
Click to expand...

"Blessed are the poor..."

"Go...
Sell all that you have...
Give to the poor...
And you shall have riches in heaven..."

The kingdom of God is not of this earth...

You seem to think it a noble idea, that people give their everything to the Church, till they are down to their last mite, which they can give too.
Click to expand...

Remember what Christ said to Ananias about Paul?

Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great [are the] things
[which] he must suffer for my name's sake.

And Paul himself explained it this way:
Col 1:24
Who [am] now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh
for His Body's sake,
which is the Church:

The Church here is clearly being named by Paul as Christ's Body for which he is suffering, and in which sufferings he is rejoicing... The ONLY things which YOU CAN fill up which are behind of the afflictions of Christ on the Cross are YOUR OWN sufferings for the sake of Christ's Body, the Church...

I mean, you are right - This is not rocket science...

THAT is cult thinking! So we end up with people in squalor while the church is in finery. Or the Catholic idea.
Click to expand...

Go...

Sell ALL...

Give...

OR...

Hold some back like Ananias and his wife did...

Not my call for you to make...

Arsenios
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top