Church government is not hierarchical

iouae

Well-known member
I know what you "think" this verse means, now how about all the other verses that you persistently ignore, such as "these can only come out with prayer and fasting."

I am not knocking fasting per se. Fasting does have a role. I do fast on occasion. But since I don't throw out high ranking demons, this does not apply to me. If I had to, I would fast.

What shocked me was to hear Jentezen Franklin this Saturday proposing a 21 day fast from 3-24 Jan 2016. He wanted his congregants to vow to fast the whole length. I presume this is a liquid fast. I know this probably does not apply to you Brewmama but have folks never read...?

Matt 5
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Promising God one will fast and then breaking that promise IS serious. Why tempt God?

If you Brewmama decided during a fast day to simply quit, would you feel guilty? Do you vow to fast ever?
 

brewmama

New member
I am not knocking fasting per se. Fasting does have a role. I do fast on occasion. But since I don't throw out high ranking demons, this does not apply to me. If I had to, I would fast.

What shocked me was to hear Jentezen Franklin this Saturday proposing a 21 day fast from 3-24 Jan 2016. He wanted his congregants to vow to fast the whole length. I presume this is a liquid fast. I know this probably does not apply to you Brewmama but have folks never read...?

Matt 5
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Promising God one will fast and then breaking that puaaaromise IS serious. Why tempt God?

If you Brewmama decided during a fast day to simply quit, would you feel guilty? Do you vow to fast ever?
No
 

HisServant

New member
I see Cruciform is back to his tactics of never directly answering questions and diverting the discussion as often as possible.

What i took offense to the most is his acusing mebof using an athiest tactic.... shame on him!

But then again, i should take his posts forbwhat they are.... ramblings of a stark raving lunatic.

We all need to remember that he and his church are irrevalent... period.
 

brewmama

New member

brewmama

New member
A being exercises its proper activities, its being, not in isolation but in relation to other beings. Hence, as Dionysius says, the love of all things for God, which is their reversion, their participation in him, and hence their very being, consists in their love for each other, according to the proper rank of each: ‘To all things, then, the Beautiful and Good is desired and beloved and cherished; and through it and for the sake of it also the lesser love the greater revertively, and those of the same sort … their coordinates communally, and the greater the lesser providentially … and all things, by desiring the Beautiful and Good, do and wish all things that they do and wish’. The higher being’s love for or participation in God, its being, then, is its providence to the lower, and the lower being’s love for or participation in God is its reversion, or receptivity, to the higher. Providing to the lower and reverting to the higher is the very meaning of occupying a given position in the hierarchical structure of the whole. Dionysian hierarchy, therefore, has nothing to do with domination and subservience, but only with love, the love of all things for one another which is the love of God in them all.” (Perl, p.77).


There is an endnote (#26) here, which reads: “Dionysius’ doctrine of hierarchy could thus be read as an elaboration of Matthew 20:25-27: ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave.’ The higher any being is in the order of reality, the more it is in the service of — in Dionysius’ terms, providentially proceeds to — all that is below it.”

“In Dionysius’ metaphysics, then, there is no such thing as an individual, a being conceived as a closed, self-contained unit which extrinsically enters into relations with other beings. Because the principle of reality is pure Openness or Giving, the very identity, the being of each thing, God-in-it, is its giving to and receiving from others. Each thing, indeed, is nothing but is relations to others, its place within the structure of immediate mediation. Hierarchy is thus, as its name signifies, the principle of sacredness, which is to say of being. Nothing could be farther from the supposed ‘immovability’ of Dionysian hierarchy than this vision of being as περιχώρησις, as the Great Dance in which all beings are only in and through each other ”. (p. 80)

“Theophany: The Neoplatonic Philosophy of Dionysius the Areopagite"
 

iouae

Well-known member
Reasons why church government is NOT hierarchical.

1. Gentiles lord it. Not so with you.
2. Washed feet as example of greatest.
3. No apostle ever ordered another around.
4. No believer ever ordered around except when sleeping with stepmother and whole church booted him out.
5. We are all brothers - an analogy of equals.
6. Paul rebuked Peter for being a hypocrite.
7. Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. - means ruler of people.
8. No evidence of rank being conferred successionally.
9. Call no man master - a hierarchical concept.
10. Call no man Father - a hierarchical concept. Matt 23:9
11. 1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
12. Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: - simply means be teachable in the Greek.
13. An eye and a mouth are different but equal. Only Christ the head.
14. Apostles, prophets, teachers are gifts of spirit not ranks.
15. Dispute over circumcision settled by whole church, not Peter or Paul.
16. 1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. - each believer allowed a voice in a spontaneous church service.
17. The church has servants which perform services. They do not command obedience.
18. There are no such things as sacraments.
19. With no such things as sacraments there is no cast who alone may administer things like baptisms, weddings.
20. 1 Cor 6:4 says if a dispute arises between members get the least to settle it, not minister

I had 75 of these. I will try to remember more
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I never see Peter or Paul ever ordering anyone to do anything on the basis of their supposed "authority"....

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you,
and
submit yourselves:

for they watch for your souls,
as they that must give account,

that they may do it with joy,
and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.


My question for you is this: "What IS this RULE that some have over others in the New Testament Bible?

Notice that we are to SUBMIT OURSELVES...

Hence it is NOT authoritarian, contrary to Latin Rome...

Even in this earliest crisis in the Christian Church we do not see one Christian ever ordering another Christian around or domineering the other's faith walk.

Exactly so - The Faith of Christ is voluntary and willful [against one's own will] and obedient...

Paul frequently enjoins his flocks to be obedient... Just do a word search on the word obey...

Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you,
and
submit yourselves:

for they watch for your souls,
as they that must give account,

that they may do it with joy,
and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.


My question for you is this: "What IS this RULE that some have over others in the New Testament Bible?

Notice that we are to SUBMIT OURSELVES...

Hence it is NOT authoritarian, contrary to Latin Rome...



Exactly so - The Faith of Christ is voluntary and willful [against one's own will] and obedient...

Paul frequently enjoins his flocks to be obedient... Just do a word search on the word obey...

Arsenios

I thought I covered this in post #5.

Here it is again...

Take the most seemingly hierarchical scripture I could think of.
Heb 13
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This call to "obedience" is more or less repeated 5 verses later.

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation:

That is what Heb 13:17 is saying.
Paul is bringing the Gospel message to them, and Paul is exhorting them to listen to their teachers. "Listen" in a Biblical sense always means listen to obey.

But the word "obey" is "pitho" (Strongs G3982) which means "to suffer one's self to be persuaded to believe". It is not the "obey" as in the army, but rather "be teachable".

"Rule" is Strongs G2233 and is "hegeomai" meaning "to lead, go before".

Every Christian is a product of listening to some Christian who has "gone before" them in believing, and who now brings them the Gospel message, which they would do well to heed. In turn, they will go before others and lead others who heed, to salvation.

Thus the KJV which was translated for King James, who wanted to use religion to enforce obedience, naturally had translators trying to get the strictest possible obedience out of the Greek which they possibly could. Even in Heb 13:17 there is no domineering of one Christian by another. That idea arose later when the Church became an organ of state in the "Holy" Roman Empire. And we know how badly the church abused power it was never given by scripture alone.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I thought I covered this in post #5.

Here it is again...

Take the most seemingly hierarchical scripture I could think of.
Heb 13
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This call to "obedience" is more or less repeated 5 verses later.

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation:

That is what Heb 13:17 is saying.
Paul is bringing the Gospel message to them, and Paul is exhorting them to listen to their teachers. "Listen" in a Biblical sense always means listen to obey.

But the word "obey" is "pitho" (Strongs G3982) which means "to suffer one's self to be persuaded to believe". It is not the "obey" as in the army, but rather "be teachable".

"Rule" is Strongs G2233 and is "hegeomai" meaning "to lead, go before".

Every Christian is a product of listening to some Christian who has "gone before" them in believing, and who now brings them the Gospel message, which they would do well to heed. In turn, they will go before others and lead others who heed, to salvation.

Thus the KJV which was translated for King James, who wanted to use religion to enforce obedience, naturally had translators trying to get the strictest possible obedience out of the Greek which they possibly could. Even in Heb 13:17 there is no domineering of one Christian by another. That idea arose later when the Church became an organ of state in the "Holy" Roman Empire. And we know how badly the church abused power it was never given by scripture alone.

Voluntary obedience is still obedience...

Your post refutes the Authoritarianism of the Church of Rome...

It does not refute the Authoritativeness of the Church of Constantinople...

The treasury of Rome is Her own [false] authority...

The treasury of Constantinople is Her [true] voluntary obedience...

Your word study is somewhat [but not totally] disingenuous...
This is literal:

πειθεσθε
Be ye persuaded by [have confidence in]

τοις ηγουμενοις υμων
those leading of you [your leaders]

και υπεικετε αυτοι
and yield to them

Hence the following is legitimate:

"Have confidence in your leaders and obey them."

The direction is to be voluntarily obedient, just as Christ commanded in Matthew when He said: "If anyone is willing... After Me to be following... Let him first deny himself... Then take up his own cross... And follow me."

There is a huge difference between embracing obedience in humility and parading your own authority... Those having the rule over you, as ones who will give an accounting for your soul, are not your authority until you obey them. If you obey them, and then disobey them, you will have a problem with them, because of the nature of disobedience, because Adam disobeyed, you see... IF you are obedient, you see, then THEY will have to give account for your soul, but if you disobey them, then YOU will have to give that account... And they, presumably, have walked where you desire to also walk, and they know the way, and you who have not yet walked that way cannot yet know the ways of its way... The Apostles followed Christ, and their disciples followed them, and so on through each generation even unto this very day and hour... For "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the Age..."

Bottom line: "Scorn the instruction of your elders at your own risk, because you do not yet know the way in which they are leading you..." And no, this does not mean blind obedience to arbitrary authoritarians...

Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
Voluntary obedience is still obedience...


Bottom line: "Scorn the instruction of your elders at your own risk, because you do not yet know the way in which they are leading you..." And no, this does not mean blind obedience to arbitrary authoritarians...

Arsenios

Tell me the benefits the instruction of my elder can bring me?

Why should I be subject to him?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Churches have created a pathological situation with their hierarchies.
They try to keep believers in a permanent "Peter Pan" state where they never grow up spiritually and make their own decisions like adults.

And these are believers who have sat in the same pews for 30+ years.
The Bible is not rocket science.
In fact one can very quickly learn the simplicity of Christ.

Explain to me what a pastor knows more about than a 30 year in the faith believer? Or for that matter a year in the faith believer who has a grain of sense.
Is not the Holy Spirit our teacher?

There is a place for church.
There is no place for churches fostering "Peter Pan" believers.
Or "Stepford Wife" believers either.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Tell me the benefits the instruction of my elder can bring me?

Why should I be subject to him?

Does this question mean that you agree with my word study?

The benefit of obedience is the Salvation of your soul...

SHOULD you be obedient?

Was Adam obedient?

Was Christ obedient?

Which will you follow?

One cannot correct the disobedience of Adam with one's own disobedience to the Body of Christ Who is the Head of His Body...

Obedience to one who is mature in the Faith of Christ and who has overcome before you is the graveyard of self will which is the essential feature of the doing of God's will...

Adam followed self-will believing the serpent...

Christ followed God's will, believing the Father...

Christ is the Father of US who are members of His Body who have been baptized INTO Christ...

Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
Does this question mean that you agree with my word study?

The benefit of obedience is the Salvation of your soul...

SHOULD you be obedient?

Was Adam obedient?

Was Christ obedient?

Which will you follow?

One cannot correct the disobedience of Adam with one's own disobedience to the Body of Christ Who is the Head of His Body...

Obedience to one who is mature in the Faith of Christ and who has overcome before you is the graveyard of self will which is the essential feature of the doing of God's will...

Adam followed self-will believing the serpent...

Christ followed God's will, believing the Father...

Christ is the Father of US who are members of His Body who have been baptized INTO Christ...

Arsenios

It is amazing to note how you cannot tell the difference between obedience to God and obedience to supposed church hierarchy.

Does your church teach that disobedience to your church hierarchy is disobedience to God?
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Churches have created a pathological situation with their hierarchies.
They try to keep believers in a permanent "Peter Pan" state where they never grow up spiritually and make their own decisions like adults.

And these are believers who have sat in the same pews for 30+ years.
The Bible is not rocket science.
In fact one can very quickly learn the simplicity of Christ.

Explain to me what a pastor knows more about than a 30 year in the faith believer? Or for that matter a year in the faith believer who has a grain of sense.
Is not the Holy Spirit our teacher?

There is a place for church.
There is no place for churches fostering "Peter Pan" believers.
Or "Stepford Wife" believers either.

Local Churches can fail, and have their Lampstand removed, as Christ told John in Revelation... The Body of Christ does not fail... You are speaking for the Churches you know... I am speaking for the Church I know... I share your opinion of the Churches you know... You do not know the Church I know...

You are following Christ as well as you can, given what you have found in the Churches you know... Your exaltation of self-will places a limit on your faith that it's repentance from within the Apostolic Body of Christ can open before your walk...

Self-will, as you know, has demonic traps in its walk that are hard to avoid... That is why Paul instructs confident obedience to those who are your leaders in the Faith of Christ within His Body, the Church...

The local Western Churches, I agree, are a mess, but they are doing the best that they can... Try not to be too hard on them... Persecutions are going to be soon enough in coming, and have already begun...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
It is amazing to note how you cannot tell the difference between obedience to God and obedience to supposed church hierarchy.

Does your church teach that disobedience to your church hierarchy is disobedience to God?

We do not enter into a relationship of obedience to a "Church hierarchy"... At monastic levels of this Faith, one does enter into such a relationship, if one is lucky enough to come under one, with a gifted Spiritual Elder... But what we do NOT do is go outside the Church for guidance, and most of those within the Church who have some measure of maturity in Christ are willing to listen when we run into difficulties and offer helps, and the Church itself offers the medicines of confession and repentance and binding and loosing of sins as needed... Intercessory prayer is ongoing and constant... We anoint with oil those sick in body and soul, and work together to help those in need, spiritual and physical...

The Body of Christ is not an organization, but a divinely led human-divine organism... That leadership is demonstrated in Revelation in Christ's words to the "Angels" of the seven Churches...

Each of us is a Temple of the Holy Spirit, but we are not as individuals the Body of Christ, but only so as the Communion of His Body and Blood...

You sound bitter and angry - I would imagine you have had bad experiences with churches...

Arsenios
 
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