Church government is not hierarchical

Arsenios

Well-known member
It is amazing to note how you cannot tell the difference between obedience to God and obedience to supposed church hierarchy.

Does your church teach that disobedience to your church hierarchy is disobedience to God?

We teach the value of obedience...

To God and to one another...

We teach the danger of disobedience...

To God and to one another...

Obedience is our treasury...

But not obedience to sin...

We disciple repentance from sin...

"Repent and be Baptized...

For...

The Kingdom of Heaven...

Is at hand!"


(The Gospel of Jesus Christ.)

Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
We teach the value of obedience...

To God and to one another...

We teach the danger of disobedience...

To God and to one another...

Obedience is our treasury...

But not obedience to sin...

We disciple repentance from sin...

"Repent and be Baptized...

For...

The Kingdom of Heaven...

Is at hand!"


(The Gospel of Jesus Christ.)

Arsenios

Because I disagree with your doctrines, because I see they are not sola scriptura, for me to be obedient to you, would be for me to be obedient to sin.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Because I disagree with your doctrines, because I see they are not sola scriptura, for me to be obedient to you, would be for me to be obedient to sin.

Obedience to ME???

Not recommended by anyone I know...

Have you ever heard of the Straw Man Argument...

I am the Straw Man, you see...

You can find a better argument...

Arsenios
 

brewmama

New member
I thought I covered this in post #5.

Here it is again...

Take the most seemingly hierarchical scripture I could think of.
Heb 13
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This call to "obedience" is more or less repeated 5 verses later.

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation:

That is what Heb 13:17 is saying.
Paul is bringing the Gospel message to them, and Paul is exhorting them to listen to their teachers. "Listen" in a Biblical sense always means listen to obey.

But the word "obey" is "pitho" (Strongs G3982) which means "to suffer one's self to be persuaded to believe". It is not the "obey" as in the army, but rather "be teachable".

"Rule" is Strongs G2233 and is "hegeomai" meaning "to lead, go before".

Every Christian is a product of listening to some Christian who has "gone before" them in believing, and who now brings them the Gospel message, which they would do well to heed. In turn, they will go before others and lead others who heed, to salvation.

Thus the KJV which was translated for King James, who wanted to use religion to enforce obedience, naturally had translators trying to get the strictest possible obedience out of the Greek which they possibly could. Even in Heb 13:17 there is no domineering of one Christian by another. That idea arose later when the Church became an organ of state in the "Holy" Roman Empire. And we know how badly the church abused power it was never given by scripture alone.

It's hilarious how Protestants base everything they think on good or bad English translations of the Greek. Why don't you listen to the Greek Churches instead of deciding whether the translation of the Greek is "right" or not?

I have showed you several times how authority and hierarchy in the church is not "domineering" or other pejorative terms you use, yet you blatantly ignore it.
 

HisServant

New member
It's hilarious how Protestants base everything they think on good or bad English translations of the Greek. Why don't you listen to the Greek Churches instead of deciding whether the translation of the Greek is "right" or not?

I have showed you several times how authority and hierarchy in the church is not "domineering" or other pejorative terms you use, yet you blatantly ignore it.

Tell that to all the martyrs it killed over the centuries.

You can say whatever you want, but actions speak louder than words.
 

brewmama

New member
Tell me the benefits the instruction of my elder can bring me?

Why should I be subject to him?

Churches have created a pathological situation with their hierarchies.
They try to keep believers in a permanent "Peter Pan" state where they never grow up spiritually and make their own decisions like adults.

And these are believers who have sat in the same pews for 30+ years.
The Bible is not rocket science.
In fact one can very quickly learn the simplicity of Christ.

Explain to me what a pastor knows more about than a 30 year in the faith believer? Or for that matter a year in the faith believer who has a grain of sense.
Is not the Holy Spirit our teacher?

There is a place for church.
There is no place for churches fostering "Peter Pan" believers.
Or "Stepford Wife" believers either.

You really have NO IDEA what devout Orthodox (or Catholic) are like do you? You are also very ignorant of historical episodes of saints, elders, miracle workers, etc. You do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you at least educate yourself, even if you prefer to remain in your weak state of pablum. Have you read any Dostoevsky?

If the Holy Spirit is a Protestant's teacher, why are there so many contradictory positions? Why do you never explain the lack of Biblical call for sola scriptura, but rather for a church? Why don't you try listening and questioning an experienced priest rather than just making up things about them?
 

iouae

Well-known member
You really have NO IDEA what devout Orthodox (or Catholic) are like do you? You are also very ignorant of historical episodes of saints, elders, miracle workers, etc. You do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you at least educate yourself, even if you prefer to remain in your weak state of pablum. Have you read any Dostoevsky?

If the Holy Spirit is a Protestant's teacher, why are there so many contradictory positions? Why do you never explain the lack of Biblical call for sola scriptura, but rather for a church? Why don't you try listening and questioning an experienced priest rather than just making up things about them?

This post does not address a thing I asked.

Cults like to bang on about obeying man.

Where in scripture are we told to obey men? Oh, you are going to quote Heb 13:17 again, which I have explained.

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Copy Paul, follow Christ.

But why is that such an issue to cults like yours?
I think it is because you have made up so much stuff (fast on Wed etc.) that only through obedience to men/church can this be propagated.

If you would do all that the Bible commanded, free from all your customs, you would have the enjoyable and free relationship with Christ which I enjoy.

Give me a specific thing your priest could teach me which would benefit me?

And I feel I know enough about the Orthodox church from reading Wiki. The only reason I read it was to understand you better so I could debate with you better. I know enough to know that ANY hierarchical church is not for me. I did my time in one. Have you ever been free from one, or were you born into your church?
 
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iouae

Well-known member
Humility.

This humility?

Col 2

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using,) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
 

brewmama

New member
This humility:

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Ephesians 4:2 | NIV | love patience

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.
Philippians 2:3 | NIV | selfishness neighbor

When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
Proverbs 11:2 | NIV | wisdom pride

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.
1 Peter 3:3-4 | NIV | beauty heart

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:10 | NIV |

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Colossians 3:12 | NIV

Pride brings a person low,
but the lowly in spirit gain honor.
Proverbs 29:23

Humility is the fear of the Lord;
its wages are riches and honor and life.
Proverbs 22:4 | NIV | reward awe

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
James 3:13 | NIV

Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
1 Peter 5:6 | NIV |

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:29-30 | NIV | rest learning

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 | NIV | forgiveness healing

Before a downfall the heart is haughty,
but humility comes before honor.
Proverbs 18:12 | NIV

Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8 | NIV | community neighbor

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”
Mark 9:35 | NIV | Jesus understanding

God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.
1 Corinthians 1:28-29 | NIV | calling

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Galatians 5:13 | NIV | love desires

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Colossians 3:18-19 | NIV | marriage relationships
 

iouae

Well-known member
Why church government is NOT hierarchical contd...

21) Matt 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
The greatest are like children, not Barons.

22) Parables never show a class between Christ and disciples. Eg. Shepherd and sheep (no super-sheep). Christ the head us body parts (none better than other), vine and branches (no branch better than another).

23) All of Christ's commands are to all, not the chosen few.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Go YE, not the minister only.

24) The 13th apostle was decided by a vote and a lottery. Not by a hierarchy.

25) 1 Cor 3 condemns following a man and denominationalism.
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

26) Continuing with 1 Cor 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Again we see every man building for himself upon Christ.

27) Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. No hierarchy or church can do it for you. Many act like they hold the keys to your salvation.

28) Paul did a lot of beseeching. E.g. 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren... Why would Paul beseech 22 times. If he endorsed hierarchy or had power to order he would have ordered. Despots do not beseech.

29) In a victory procession, kings went first, captive slaves last. Paul uses this analogy of his apostleship. Does this sound like he acted like a despot?
1 Cor 4
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
Contrast Paul's example with say the Vatican where they do rule like kings.
 

brewmama

New member
Why church government is NOT hierarchical contd...

21) Matt 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
The greatest are like children, not Barons.

22) Parables never show a class between Christ and disciples. Eg. Shepherd and sheep (no super-sheep). Christ the head us body parts (none better than other), vine and branches (no branch better than another).

23) All of Christ's commands are to all, not the chosen few.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Go YE, not the minister only.

24) The 13th apostle was decided by a vote and a lottery. Not by a hierarchy.

25) 1 Cor 3 condemns following a man and denominationalism.
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

26) Continuing with 1 Cor 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Again we see every man building for himself upon Christ.

27) Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. No hierarchy or church can do it for you. Many act like they hold the keys to your salvation.

28) Paul did a lot of beseeching. E.g. 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren... Why would Paul beseech 22 times. If he endorsed hierarchy or had power to order he would have ordered. Despots do not beseech.

29) In a victory procession, kings went first, captive slaves last. Paul uses this analogy of his apostleship. Does this sound like he acted like a despot?
1 Cor 4
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
Contrast Paul's example with say the Vatican where they do rule like kings.

Nothing you have said negates that there is a hierarchy in the church. None of your quotes above relate to the Church, the true faith passed down through the ages. Those who are in charge of keeping the holy faith intact and unchanged are indeed servants, workers, martyrs. They are not kings, or autocrats, or domineering. I have explained this over and over but you will not let it go. I have to smile to hear that you "know all there is to know about the Orthodox Church from wikipedia"! That's funny, in a sad way.

Paul, when he wrote to the Philippians, was writing AS A LEADER, and that church is still there today, (although modernized).

The extensive remains of a number of 5th and 6th century early Christian churches have been joined recently by a new church – Lydia’s Church – built beside the River Zygaktis where it’s believed that Paul and Silas met with the early believers and Lydia was baptised.

213.jpg


You are arguing against something you have made up, which you do not understand.
 
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iouae

Well-known member
Beautiful church.

I have nothing against leaders. Leaders are there for those who need them, viz. babies in Christ. There will always be newbies, and they will always need leading.

Or if someone suggested we go and save some souls in Maldives, and I thought it was a good idea, I might follow him. But feeling compelled to obey someone because he is a priest or deacon or whatever man-made rank??? Why would one do that?? Because he gets to dispense communion? I dispense my own communion. I don't need him.

Why does the church act like it is the army?

You have not told me if you have ever lived outside your church. I don't see that as an inappropriate question. Some folks who have lived all their lives in Beijing don't know what fresh air is.
 

brewmama

New member
Beautiful church.

I have nothing against leaders. Leaders are there for those who need them, viz. babies in Christ. There will always be newbies, and they will always need leading.

Or if someone suggested we go and save some souls in Maldives, and I thought it was a good idea, I might follow him. But feeling compelled to obey someone because he is a priest or deacon or whatever man-made rank??? Why would one do that?? Because he gets to dispense communion? I dispense my own communion. I don't need him.

Why does the church act like it is the army?

You have not told me if you have ever lived outside your church. I don't see that as an inappropriate question. Some folks who have lived all their lives in Beijing don't know what fresh air is.

I was not raised in any church. I joined the Orthodox Church as an adult. There are indeed some cradle Orthodox, (and Catholics,) who don't appreciate the pearls that they have been given, or are members in name only.

Again, with the army/king/ruler comparison. I give up.

One "would do that" because we prefer to be in the church that the Apostles started, at Christ's command, rather than some man-made nonchurch started thousands of years later. How stupid would that be?
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
There is a hierarchy in the Church

Such hierarchies lend themselves well to the good and decent order of the Churches... What our friend doesn't get yet is that the Body of Christ is an organism that is both human and God... And that as an organism, it possesses organization and structures, but it IS NOT these...

A new church – Lydia’s Church – built beside the River Zygaktis where it’s believed that Paul and Silas met with the early believers and Lydia was baptised.

213.jpg
[/QUOTE]

What a beautiful space to worship God! Do you have inside pictures? What country is it in? Looks like some of the Orthodox Churches in Arizona...

Arsenios
 

brewmama

New member
Such hierarchies lend themselves well to the good and decent order of the Churches... What our friend doesn't get yet is that the Body of Christ is an organism that is both human and God... And that as an organism, it possesses organization and structures, but it IS NOT these...



213.jpg


What a beautiful space to worship God! Do you have inside pictures? What country is it in? Looks like some of the Orthodox Churches in Arizona...

Arsenios

It's a Philippian church. They love to quote Philippians, but not listen to the actual church itself.
 

iouae

Well-known member
It's a Philippian church. They love to quote Philippians, but not listen to the actual church itself.

Organisation and structure - great.
Hierarchy dominating/domineering/fleecing believers - not great.
Listen to Philippians - great.
Listen to some man-made church rules - not great.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Let us now look at some pathological ways that hierarchies exercise their authority over believers.

1) Cults. Churches who believe they are THE ONLY right one. Leaving them leaves the believer feeling they are doomed. To be shunned or cast out of this church is the biggest fear, since you leave your eternal life behind. The doctrines are often decided by a cult leader.

We have all heard of the Branch Davidians, the Jonestown, The Heavens Gate groups. But what about the biggest Christian churches on earth? What about your church? If you believe yours is the only church offering salvation, then congratulations - you belong to a cult.

And you will follow their rules. God forbid you drink the Kool-aid. Most cults are not exposed as dramatically as the three listed above. They may just slowly interpose their way between you and Christ. Eventually you end up just following man-made rules and man-made beliefs.

I belonged to such a cult. I do believe the Holy Spirit can still survive in a suppressed form even in such an environment. The best you can hope for is to break some rule, get shunned, and get cast out. Many will be turned off religion forever. Some will end up the stronger for developing a direct relationship with God.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
What a beautiful space to worship God! Do you have inside pictures? What country is it in? Looks like some of the Orthodox Churches in Arizona...

Arsenios


John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
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