Church government is not hierarchical

Arsenios

Well-known member
Arsenios

I am glad you had a wonderful life in a monastery.

I rejoice in your gladness, but I am not a monastic - I have a day job... Serving John Q. Public...

Nowhere in the Bible does it encourage living in a monastery or asceticism.

"Then they shall fast..." [Christ]

"I subdue my body, and not as a shadow boxer beating the air..." [Paul]

"Let him first deny himself, then take up his own cross, and follow Me." [Christ]

"Repent and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand..." [John]

To cite but a few...

Rather we are told to be in the world, but not of the world, engaging with the world, preaching the Gospel to all the world.

To the extent that you are hanging on to your sheckles, you are OF the world...

I believe one "scores more brownie points in heaven" by giving someone a glass of water, rather than spending the day fasting.

It is not at all about scoring brownie points in heaven, but is all about approaching the unapproachable God in repentance, forsaking self and the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven as a member of Christ's Holy Body, the Church...

There are two approaches. One is to focus on fasting, and rituals, which is all self-centred on increasing one's own righteousness.

These are not self centered, but obedience centered, which denies self will...

The other approach is to be others focused, to serve in a soup kitchen, getting dirty, perhaps being tempted and making mistakes. It is this second type of "righteous life" which I believe Christianity encourages, rather than the Pharisaical focus on washing hands, fasting, tassels, chief seats in the synagogue etc.

Such service to others is common in monasteries - Indeed it is the rule... Self-righteousness is a colossal fail... Self-condemnation is the rule, and even this CAN [sometimes] turn into self righteousness...

Self-centred righteousness such as that which monasticism encourages is NOT biblical. Even in the OT it was not biblical.

You do not yet know what Orthodox monasticism entails... It arose when the Church became official in the Roman Empire, and true Christians fled from the influx to the desert where they could have the solitude to pray, labor, and suffer for the Kingdom of God... An effort to flee the distractions of the world and purify the heart that God illumine the mind and deify the person in Him... It is all about becoming one with God... Which is all about the Marriage of the Lamb...

One cannot arrive in the Promised Land unless one first crosses the Red Sea and struggles in the Desert...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Arsenios

I am glad you had a wonderful life in a monastery.

I think you are confusing me with my Avatar photo of Fr. Kristiansen, a Russian Priest-monk on the cover of "Everyday Saints", a great read...

I think I am a year or two older than him, and have more hair - Facial and down the back...

:)

I just checked, and Father John is much older than I am, and perhaps has reposed...

3.jpg
1.jpg


Still working the ground with his hoe, as you can see...
[Or is that just a cane??]
OR
Posing in whites with his hair down...

No spring chicken in either event...

Fr. Ioann Krestiankin is his official western alphabet name...


Arsenios
 
Last edited:

Arsenios

Well-known member
If you or your family are starving because of your reckless giving to the church YOU ARE AN INFIDEL.
[/QUOTE]

The two choices are marriage to a spouse and raising a family...

OR...

Monasticism...

Not all are able to handle celibacy in a monastery, and for these, marriage is blessed...


Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
When I look at the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, or read Arsenios's three posts above, I see nothing of this lifestyle advocated in the NT. I never see NT believers living like this.

I have lived the cult lifestyle where "my works" produce "my righteousness".
Then I left the cult and discovered Christ's righteousness, imputed without all the asceticism, ritual, and "religion" as prescribed by Catholicism.

I believe the following condemns the Catholic/Orthodox lifestyle.

Col 2
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using,) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I discounted Arsenios's arguments in post #217 above.

I have tried both ways.
Go down the Arsenios path and you will suffer!! And it will not add to your righteousness.

Christianity is a simple reliance on Christ. Period!
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
I believe the following condemns the Catholic/Orthodox lifestyle.

Col 2
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using,) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I discounted Arsenios's arguments in post #217 above.

I have tried both ways.
Go down the Arsenios path and you will suffer!! And it will not add to your righteousness.

Christianity is a simple reliance on Christ. Period!

:up:

Voluntary humility makes the fleshy mind feel good.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Idolatry is idolatry....

Is the Cross an idol?

Just because something has been maintained for so long does not make it right.

Self-opinionizing has been maintained since Adam...

Living the Cross of Christ only since Christ...

"Let him deny himself...

Let him take up his own cross...

Let him be following Me."

Did Christ suffer crucifixion?

Are you following Him?

IF you desire to follow the Risen Christ,
you must be baptized into His death,
in order that you be able to follow Him Risen...

This have Christians been doing for 2000 years...

ALL the apostles save the Beloved John were martyred...

Paul was martyred, and wrote of the life he lived that we are to follow IF we would follow him who followed Christ...

Fleeing from earthly suffering for the sake of Christ is for babies...

Embracing the cross is solid food for the mature...

For Behold!
JOY through the cross...
Has come to all mankind...

Indeed it is the JOY of all who sorrow...

One cannot overcome sin without suffering...

For...

"He who has suffered is no longer sinning..."

Christians are not sissies who flee from sufferings...

He who loses his life shall find it...

And vice versa...


Arsenios
 

HisServant

New member
Is the Cross an idol?



Self-opinionizing has been maintained since Adam...

Living the Cross of Christ only since Christ...

"Let him deny himself...

Let him take up his own cross...

Let him be following Me."

Did Christ suffer crucifixion?

Are you following Him?

IF you desire to follow the Risen Christ,
you must be baptized into His death,
in order that you be able to follow Him Risen...

This have Christians been doing for 2000 years...

ALL the apostles save the Beloved John were martyred...

Paul was martyred, and wrote of the life he lived that we are to follow IF we would follow him who followed Christ...

Fleeing from earthly suffering for the sake of Christ is for babies...

Embracing the cross is solid food for the mature...

For Behold!
JOY through the cross...
Has come to all mankind...

Indeed it is the JOY of all who sorrow...

One cannot overcome sin without suffering...

For...

"He who has suffered is no longer sinning..."

Christians are not sissies who flee from sufferings...

He who loses his life shall find it...

And vice versa...


Arsenios

Yes, the cross has become an idol.

Christianity is a religion not of sight, but of good conscience.... pretty things are anti-christ and the tool of the devil.

Also, water baptism is no longer necessary, it is God that baptizes his chosen with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Our eyes are to remain on the risen Christ... and him alone. He is no longer on a tree (what you call a cross only vaguely represents what he was hung on).

And you speak of history, yet you ignore the lessons of the Old Testament and have become like the Jews that killed their Messiah because they misunderstood and were blind to him.... I have no doubt you would do the same to Christ if he returns and discredits all you believe in.... you would be the first with a torch to light the flames or drive the nail.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
When I look at the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, or read Arsenios's three posts above, I see nothing of this lifestyle advocated in the NT. I never see NT believers living like this.

All the Apostles except John were martyred, and most of the 70, beginning with the First Martyr Stephan who died under Paul's direction and aid... The lifestyle of the early Church was one of persecutions, beginning with the persecutions of the Jews, who murdered the Prophets...

I have lived the cult lifestyle where "my works" produce "my righteousness".

One's own works never produce righteousness, but they can certainly produce unrighteousness if they are evil...

Then I left the cult and discovered Christ's righteousness, imputed without all the asceticism, ritual, and "religion" as prescribed by Catholicism.

The asceticism and Services of the Body of Christ Who is Her Head support and nurture and instruct and sanctify WITHIN Christ those who cling to the Head of the Body... Without this strengthening the Body withers away, as the Church is doing as we write here... Daily Services - The very doing of them each day - ARE an askesis of sorts... The early Church prayed day and night every day and night...

I believe the following condemns the Catholic/Orthodox lifestyle.

Col 2
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using,) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I discounted Arsenios's arguments in post #217 above.

So do you think that this passage means you are to abandon living repentantly, and scorn the cross, and embrace your fleshly pleasures???

The Doctrines of Christ are taught within His Body by those who know them first hand, having received them through those before them who also knew them first hand...

I appreciate that you were enslaved in a cult that exploited its converts - Indeed fed off them spiritually and materially - And I further appreciate that the idea that God freely imputes invisible righteousness to those who believe is a welcome alternative to your cult's exploitations... But the call of God is to repentance from dead works [your cult's dead works], and this repentance from all dead works, which are the works of the flesh, is itself a work of denial of self, as Christ proclaimed... Denial of self is a work of violence upon the violent by the violent themselves, and it is voluntary, willful, and AFTER self exhaustion in that work, THEN God heals the infirmity both in body and in soul...

The call of God is to repentance and Baptism and the "running of the race set before us"... [Paul] That contest [race] is to overcome the forces arrayed against us, and it is not done casually...

I have tried both ways.

Well, you have tried it TWO ways - You do not KNOW the Orthodox Way...

Go down the Arsenios path and you will suffer!!

Voluntarily unto the Salvation of your soul...

And it will not add to your righteousness.

But God will, the Rewarder of Good Deeds...

Christianity is a simple reliance on Christ.

Especially in tribulations -

"In the world, you WILL find tribulation, but the Peace I Give surpasses human understanding..." [Christ paraphrased]


You forgot to mention metania [repentance]...

Arsenios
 

iouae

Well-known member
Christians are not sissies who flee from sufferings...

Christians will suffer in preaching the Gospel, as Paul did.

But Paul did not go looking for suffering as a lifestyle as you advocate.

Paul in fact thrice beseeched God to remove his "thorn in the flesh".


Arsenios, I am not attacking you personally.
I think you probably are a very nice person.
I just think you are promoting a very sucky religion.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Yes, the cross has become an idol.

Perhaps for you, but not for His Body...

Christianity is a religion not of sight, but of good conscience....

Exactly...

pretty things are anti-christ and the tool of the devil.

Do you keep your Bible buried in a manure pile?

Also, water baptism is no longer necessary,

The waters are sanctified in Christ, and have been given by Him for His faithful for 2000 years now...

it is God that baptizes his chosen with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Exactly so, within His Holy Body, the Church, in the Waters of Jordan, in the waters consecrated in His Body...

That is WHY Christ permitted John to baptize Him, that WE should FOLLOW Christ...

I mean, are you really even past following Christ as a Christian??

Our eyes are to remain on the risen Christ... and him alone. He is no longer on a tree (what you call a cross only vaguely represents what he was hung on).

We are baptized INTO His Death upon that Tree... The Cross is the Tree of Life for those in Christ...

And you speak of history, yet you ignore the lessons of the Old Testament and have become like the Jews that killed their Messiah because they misunderstood and were blind to him.... I have no doubt you would do the same to Christ if he returns and discredits all you believe in.... you would be the first with a torch to light the flames or drive the nail.

The Jews were flesh oriented...

The Body of Christ is Christ oriented...

May God direct your thoughts...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Arsenios, I am not attacking you personally.
I think you probably are a very nice person.
I just think you are promoting a very sucky religion.

That is why I am trying to help you out...

No small matter! :)

The "Sickness of Religion" is VERY well known to us...

The Orthodox Faith is not the "Ruling Church" of Latin apostatic miscreance...

Yet you seem to desire to unite us in your vitriol...

A.

Who has to leave for his Day Job...

PS - There are 2 Latin Churches, btw -
Not pre and post Vatican II,
but pre and post 1054AD...

And yes, that date covers more than a few centuries...
 

HisServant

New member
Perhaps for you, but not for His Body...



Exactly...



Do you keep your Bible buried in a manure pile?



The waters are sanctified in Christ, and have been given by Him for His faithful for 2000 years now...



Exactly so, within His Holy Body, the Church, in the Waters of Jordan, in the waters consecrated in His Body...

That is WHY Christ permitted John to baptize Him, that WE should FOLLOW Christ...

I mean, are you really even past following Christ as a Christian??



We are baptized INTO His Death upon that Tree... The Cross is the Tree of Life for those in Christ...



The Jews were flesh oriented...

The Body of Christ is Christ oriented...

May God direct your thoughts...

Arsenios

You are flesh oriented... that is very plain. You should look at yourself in a mirror.

Did John the Baptist lie.... did no one come to baptize us with fire and the Holy Spirit?

FYI, baptism is just a hanger on from the Jewish custom of a mikvah... those that continue to perform baptisms with water are putting themselves under the Old Covenant and will be judged by it.

I ask God for forgiveness for my parents who baptized me when I was an infant, and for myself, for submitting to baptim as an adult.... such a monumental display of the lack of faith in God... it makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. And God punished me for it...

It is all about faith.. without visual aids... faith alone.. always has been and always will be. Sacraments are of the devil and a carry over from mithraism. Keep your eyes on Christ alone... not the instruments.
 

iouae

Well-known member
I think I understand the Orthodox philosophy as this...

The flesh is the problem (just as any athlete would say)
So let's punish the flesh (as any athlete would do)
And this way we become stronger.

This may work in athletics, but many, many religions have tried putting down the flesh. It does not help build the traits which Christ wishes.

Col 2 (Living Bible)
20 Since you died, as it were, with Christ and this has set you free from following the world’s ideas of how to be saved—by doing good and obeying various rules[a]—why do you keep right on following them anyway, still bound by such rules as 21 not eating, tasting, or even touching certain foods? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings, for food was made to be eaten and used up. 23 These rules may seem good, for rules of this kind require strong devotion and are humiliating and hard on the body, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires. They only make him proud.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I think I understand the Orthodox philosophy as this...

The flesh is the problem (just as any athlete would say)
So let's punish the flesh (as any athlete would do)
And this way we become stronger.


This may work in athletics, but many, many religions have tried putting down the flesh. It does not help build the traits which Christ wishes.

Col 2 (Living Bible)
20 Since you died, as it were, with Christ and this has set you free from following the world’s ideas of how to be saved—by doing good and obeying various rules[a]—why do you keep right on following them anyway, still bound by such rules as 21 not eating, tasting, or even touching certain foods? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings, for food was made to be eaten and used up. 23 These rules may seem good, for rules of this kind require strong devotion and are humiliating and hard on the body, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires. They only make him proud.

This has nothing to do with Orthodoxy - It is gnosticism, and demonizes flesh... The Orthodox find Salvation for the person, body and soul, and the flesh is brought into its proper place as a servant of the soul of the person who serves Christ... This is why many of the relics of the Saints of the Church are incorrupt...

Likewise when Christ, Whom we follow, died on the Cross, His body saw no corruption... Nor do we have any primary relics of His... [eg fleshly]... The mature in the Faith of Christ have their bodies serving Christ...

Western Civ has the body ruling the soul...

You do not understand this Faith...

It is not Roman Latin Catholicism...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
You are flesh oriented... that is very plain. You should look at yourself in a mirror.

Taking your own advice is not always a bad idea...

Did John the Baptist lie.... did no one come to baptize us with fire and the Holy Spirit?

He did when He said TO His Apostles:

Go...
Disciple all the Nations
Teaching them to strictly observe ALL I have commanded you...
Baptizing them in the Name...
Of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

And THAT is exactly what they did...

So did Christ lie??

Did He fail??

YOU seem to think so...

Arsenios
 

JosephR

New member
Too many churches are run like a business. It's all about the money!

its worse then about money,its about control of generations to come..

TO THE OP- It has always fascinated me that democratic institutions like countries ie the USA is a big supporter of a non hierarchical organization of a GOD based institution..
 

brewmama

New member
You are flesh oriented... that is very plain. You should look at yourself in a mirror.
What is THAT supposed to mean??

Did John the Baptist lie.... did no one come to baptize us with fire and the Holy Spirit?

FYI, baptism is just a hanger on from the Jewish custom of a mikvah... those that continue to perform baptisms with water are putting themselves under the Old Covenant and will be judged by it.

I ask God for forgiveness for my parents who baptized me when I was an infant, and for myself, for submitting to baptim as an adult.... such a monumental display of the lack of faith in God... it makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. And God punished me for it...

It is all about faith.. without visual aids... faith alone.. always has been and always will be. Sacraments are of the devil and a carry over from mithraism. Keep your eyes on Christ alone... not the instruments.

You have a lot of problems...
 
Top