Church government is not hierarchical

[iouae]

This has nothing to do with Orthodoxy - It is gnosticism, and demonizes flesh...
Arsenios

This is what you previously wrote Arsenios...

"But the call of God is to repentance from dead works [your cult's dead works], and this repentance from all dead works, which are the works of the flesh, is itself a work of denial of self, as Christ proclaimed... Denial of self is a work of violence upon the violent by the violent themselves, and it is voluntary, willful, and AFTER self exhaustion in that work, THEN God heals the infirmity both in body and in soul..."

This sure sounds like voluntary punishing the flesh or asceticism, through fasting and self denial.

Please explain this hard sounding work you do in "denial of self".

Almost all Christians believe in denying the self when it comes to sin.
You seem to go out of your way to preemptively find means of denying the self, as if this practice will make you better when faced with an opportunity to sin.

 

[iouae]

What is a Christian cult?

"In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. Thus, cult can describe religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers' lives. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship usually uses the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by Watchman Fellowship to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity."

http://www.watchman.org/index-of-cults-and-religions/

Go to the above site for a list of cults and a brief synopsis of each.
You have to scroll down, as the bookmark function of the index does not seem to work.

Cults have a grip on their followers. That grip amounts to a spiritual hierarchy.

 

[brewmama]

What is a Christian cult?

"In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. Thus, cult can describe religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers' lives. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship usually uses the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by Watchman Fellowship to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity."

http://www.watchman.org/index-of-cults-and-religions/

Go to the above site for a list of cults and a brief synopsis of each.
You have to scroll down, as the bookmark function of the index does not seem to work.

Cults have a grip on their followers. That grip amounts to a spiritual hierarchy.

Your laughable continuous attempt to call the faith as founded by the Apostles a "cult" has gotten ridiculous and boring. If there is any aberrant beliefs on central doctrines, it lies with you and other radical Protestants, who throw out everything handed down by the Apostles and the Church. We ARE Orthodox, Biblical Christianity.

 

[iouae]

Your laughable continuous attempt to call the faith as founded by the Apostles a "cult" has gotten ridiculous and boring. If there is any aberrant beliefs on central doctrines, it lies with you and other radical Protestants, who throw out everything handed down by the Apostles and the Church. We ARE Orthodox, Biblical Christianity.

The only check one has against error is sola scriptura. Once you follow a man or organisation which breaks free of the Bible as the final authority on doctrine, then the organisation can lead one anywhere.

 

[brewmama]

The only check one has against error is sola scriptura. Once you follow a man or organisation which breaks free of the Bible as the final authority on doctrine, then the organisation can lead one anywhere.

And you, as well as other Protestants, deny many things found in the Bible, as well as make up interpretations for Scripture not based in reality. For example, it's well documented in the Bible that the Church is the guardian of the truth, not the bible. Sola scriptura is not Biblical. And the Orthodox Church does NOTHING against the Bible.

Yet you say things like that ^!!

 

[patrick jane]

The only check one has against error is sola scriptura. Once you follow a man or organisation which breaks free of the Bible as the final authority on doctrine, then the organisation can lead one anywhere.

Like the Urantia papers

 

[iouae]

Like the Urantia papers

Had not heard of it but it sounds

 

[iouae]

And you, as well as other Protestants, deny many things found in the Bible, as well as make up interpretations for Scripture not based in reality. For example, it's well documented in the Bible that the Church is the guardian of the truth, not the bible. Sola scriptura is not Biblical. And the Orthodox Church does NOTHING against the Bible.

Yet you say things like that ^!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

"The Theotokos of Vladimir, one of the most venerated of Orthodox Christian icons of the Virgin Mary.
The Orthodox Church believes death and the separation of body and soul to be unnatural—a result of the Fall of Man. They also hold that the congregation of the Church comprises both the living and the dead. All persons currently in heaven are considered to be saints, whether their names are known or not. There are, however, those saints of distinction whom God has revealed as particularly good examples. When a saint is revealed and ultimately recognized by a large portion of the Church a service of official recognition (glorification) is celebrated.

This does not 'make' the person a saint, it merely recognizes the fact and announces it to the rest of the Church. A day is prescribed for the saint’s celebration, hymns composed and icons are created. Numerous saints are celebrated on each day of the year. They are venerated (shown great respect and love) but not worshiped, for worship is due to God alone. In showing the saints this love and requesting their prayers, the Orthodox manifest their belief that the saints thus assist in the process of salvation for others.[96]

Pre-eminent among the saints is the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God). In Orthodox theology, the Mother of God is the fulfillment of the Old Testament archetypes revealed in the Ark of the Covenant (because she carried the New Covenant in the person of Christ) and the burning bush that appeared before Moses (symbolizing the Mother of God's carrying of God without being consumed [97]). Accordingly, the Orthodox consider Mary to be the Ark of the New Covenant and give her the respect and reverence as such. The Theotokos was chosen by God and she freely co-operated in that choice to be the Mother of Jesus Christ, the God-man.

The Orthodox believe that the Christ Child from the moment of conception was both fully God and fully Man. Mary is thus called the 'Theotokos' or 'Bogoroditsa' as an affirmation of the divinity of the One to whom she gave birth. It is also believed that her virginity was not compromised in conceiving God-incarnate, that she was not harmed and that she remained forever a virgin. Scriptural references to "brothers" of Christ are interpreted as kin, given that the word 'brother' was used in multiple ways, as was the term 'father'. Due to her unique place in salvation history, Mary is honored above all other saints and especially venerated for the great work that God accomplished through her.[98]

The Church regards the bodies of all saints as holy, made such by participation in the Holy Mysteries, especially the communion of Christ's holy body and blood, and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the Church. Indeed, that persons and physical things can be made holy is a cornerstone of the doctrine of the Incarnation, made manifest also directly by God in Old Testament times through his dwelling in the Ark of the Covenant. Thus, physical items connected with saints are also regarded as holy, through their participation in the earthly works of those saints. God himself bears witness to this holiness of saints' relics through the many miracles connected with them that have been reported throughout history since Biblical times, often including healing from disease and injury.[99]"


All the highlighted bits completely nuts!!

 

[brewmama]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

"The Theotokos of Vladimir, one of the most venerated of Orthodox Christian icons of the Virgin Mary.
The Orthodox Church believes death and the separation of body and soul to be unnatural—a result of the Fall of Man. They also hold that the congregation of the Church comprises both the living and the dead. All persons currently in heaven are considered to be saints, whether their names are known or not. There are, however, those saints of distinction whom God has revealed as particularly good examples. When a saint is revealed and ultimately recognized by a large portion of the Church a service of official recognition (glorification) is celebrated.

This does not 'make' the person a saint, it merely recognizes the fact and announces it to the rest of the Church. A day is prescribed for the saint’s celebration, hymns composed and icons are created. Numerous saints are celebrated on each day of the year. They are venerated (shown great respect and love) but not worshiped, for worship is due to God alone. In showing the saints this love and requesting their prayers, the Orthodox manifest their belief that the saints thus assist in the process of salvation for others.[96]

Pre-eminent among the saints is the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God). In Orthodox theology, the Mother of God is the fulfillment of the Old Testament archetypes revealed in the Ark of the Covenant (because she carried the New Covenant in the person of Christ) and the burning bush that appeared before Moses (symbolizing the Mother of God's carrying of God without being consumed [97]). Accordingly, the Orthodox consider Mary to be the Ark of the New Covenant and give her the respect and reverence as such. The Theotokos was chosen by God and she freely co-operated in that choice to be the Mother of Jesus Christ, the God-man.

The Orthodox believe that the Christ Child from the moment of conception was both fully God and fully Man. Mary is thus called the 'Theotokos' or 'Bogoroditsa' as an affirmation of the divinity of the One to whom she gave birth. It is also believed that her virginity was not compromised in conceiving God-incarnate, that she was not harmed and that she remained forever a virgin. Scriptural references to "brothers" of Christ are interpreted as kin, given that the word 'brother' was used in multiple ways, as was the term 'father'. Due to her unique place in salvation history, Mary is honored above all other saints and especially venerated for the great work that God accomplished through her.[98]

The Church regards the bodies of all saints as holy, made such by participation in the Holy Mysteries, especially the communion of Christ's holy body and blood, and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the Church. Indeed, that persons and physical things can be made holy is a cornerstone of the doctrine of the Incarnation, made manifest also directly by God in Old Testament times through his dwelling in the Ark of the Covenant. Thus, physical items connected with saints are also regarded as holy, through their participation in the earthly works of those saints. God himself bears witness to this holiness of saints' relics through the many miracles connected with them that have been reported throughout history since Biblical times, often including healing from disease and injury.[99]"


All the highlighted bits completely nuts!!

They most certainly aren't. You don't believe in holiness or saints? Or miracles? :sigh:

 

[iouae]

They most certainly aren't. You don't believe in holiness or saints? Or miracles? :sigh:

You have been around this falsehood so long, you regard it as normal.

Find all that I highlighted in the Bible, or find another church.

 

[HisServant]

They most certainly aren't. You don't believe in holiness or saints? Or miracles? :sigh:

We are all saints, none are more important than any other.... so the RCC raising up 'saints' is nothing more than idolism.

Holiness is not something we can achieve on our own, either by thought or behavior. Holiness is something that God works in us.

 

[Arsenios]

Find all that I highlighted in the Bible,
or
find another church.

Forgive me, my Brother...

Our quest is God...

Not your highlights from the Bible we have provided to you...

Nor another Church...

There is one God,
One Lord
One Holy Spirit
One Faith
One Church
One Body
One Hope
One Joy

The Bible was written for the sake of all these...

It is not a substitute for them...

It is not above them in any way...

Paul wrote that the Kingdom of Heaven is measured not in words, but in power... The Power of the Words written in the Bible reflects the truth of his words...

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, and the rest, including what words are then appropriate, will be given to you...

The Bible is not the Kingdom of Heaven...
It is ABOUT the Kingdom of Heaven...

These Holy Written Words about the Kingdom of Heaven...
Were not written to be used as weapons in verbal combat...
But for the instruction and redirection and consecration of the soul...

Forgive my presumption...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The only check one has against error is sola scriptura.

The Bible disagrees, for it tells us plainly that Prophets are subject to the Prophets...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This is what you previously wrote Arsenios...

"But the call of God is to repentance from dead works [your cult's dead works], and this repentance from all dead works, which are the works of the flesh, is itself a work of denial of self, as Christ proclaimed... Denial of self is a work of violence upon the violent by the violent themselves, and it is voluntary, willful, and AFTER self exhaustion in that work, THEN God heals the infirmity both in body and in soul..."

This sure sounds like voluntary punishing the flesh or asceticism, through fasting and self denial.

Please explain this hard sounding work you do in "denial of self".

Almost all Christians believe in denying the self when it comes to sin.
You seem to go out of your way to preemptively find means of denying the self, as if this practice will make you better when faced with an opportunity to sin.

It simply means you are not controlled by your stomach and your genitals and your hair-stylist... Denial of that control is not punishing of the evil flesh, but the bringing it into subjection and direction of the soul... The flesh is not the director of the soul, but the soul of the flesh... The flesh is simply not equipped to direct the soul...

Self-denial is denial of self will for the sake of God's will...

Much of self-will centers around issues of the flesh...

Arsenios

 

[HisServant]

Taking your own advice is not always a bad idea...



He did when He said TO His Apostles:

Go...
Disciple all the Nations
Teaching them to strictly observe ALL I have commanded you...
Baptizing them in the Name...
Of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

And THAT is exactly what they did...

So did Christ lie??

Did He fail??

YOU seem to think so...

Arsenios

The baptism he commanded them to do has nothing to do with water.

Baptism signifies a permanent change to something.

It really does bother me that so many people are so lazy and equate the word baptism with water.

When Jesus said they would partake in the baptism he was about to go through... he was talking about his Crucifixion, death and resurrection.... when he came out on the other side he was changed forever..

 

[brewmama]

The baptism he commanded them to do has nothing to do with water.

Baptism signifies a permanent change to something.

It really does bother me that so many people are so lazy and equate the word baptism with water.

When Jesus said they would partake in the baptism he was about to go through... he was talking about his Crucifixion, death and resurrection.... when he came out on the other side he was changed forever..

You have to ignore A LOT of scripture to maintain that, but that's typical.

What do you think they were doing here? This is just a small example.


"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you …"

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

"And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized".


"And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing"

I grant you that "Baptism signifies a permanent change to something"
is true. As the Orthodox Church teaches. One has joined the Church and is crucified, buried and united with Christ.

 

[HisServant]

You have to ignore A LOT of scripture to maintain that, but that's typical.

What do you think they were doing here? This is just a small example.


"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you …"

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

"And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized".


"And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing"

I grant you that "Baptism signifies a permanent change to something"
is true. As the Orthodox Church teaches. One has joined the Church and is crucified, buried and united with Christ.

And none of those scriptures mean water baptism except for the last.. but that is not normative.... unless you are predisposed to that belief before you even read them.

Did you know there are 5 different baptisms mentioned in scripture and only one involved contact with water?

 

[brewmama]

And none of those scriptures mean water baptism... unless you are predisposed to that belief before you even read them.

What are they doing then? And how do you know?

 

[HisServant]

What are they doing then? And how do you know?

Laying on of hands.

 

[iouae]

It simply means you are not controlled by your stomach and your genitals and your hair-stylist... Denial of that control is not punishing of the evil flesh, but the bringing it into subjection and direction of the soul... The flesh is not the director of the soul, but the soul of the flesh... The flesh is simply not equipped to direct the soul...

Self-denial is denial of self will for the sake of God's will...

Much of self-will centers around issues of the flesh...

Arsenios

Arsenios

There are 1050 legitimate NT commands.
We don't need to look for ways to make our lives more difficult since we can focus on these.

Here they are at...
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Other than these, I am quite happy to obey Paul in this...

Rom 14
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.