Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[truthjourney]

This was the experience I had with them also.
Trying to have an actual bible study with them was like pulling teeth.
They couldn't really answer anything without looking up a reference in their notebook.
And they would show you all their literature, but wouldn't accept any of your literature.
Wouldn't even look at it!

I notice that now they don't even carry bibles around with them. They all have tablets with quick references to their bible translation and different topics and probably a link to the most frequently asked questions. They even use the tablets in their congregation meetings. This is something the Governing Body has done to ensure even more strict information control through the use of those tablets with information only related to The Watchtower's teachings.

But the most bizarre thing about them was that if there was a question their little notebook didn't have a reference to, they would up and leave immediately.
Wouldn't even finish the conversation or finish reading the scriptures we were discussing.

After I patiently listened to their spill on their 'paradise on earth', where they claimed that their 144,000 would get to be with the Father God in heaven, but all others would not and were on earth with Christ just like it was with Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.
So I ask a simple and obvious question ...... "Who was walking and talking with Adam in the garden?"
They wouldn't answer!!!!
Sat there with a shocked look, fumbling through their notebook, and then said they would have to find out the answer and get back with me.
I said, we both have a bible right here with us, why can't we just read it and see who it was.
They refused and left.
That is NOT studying scripture.

They usually go by a script for that day or used to. But sometimes a person will ask them a question that will totally confuse them and they won't know what to say. Because they have been taught and conditioned to speak a certain way, with certain words and understanding, any other way of understanding will confuse them and they aren't prepared to give an answer.

I remember the first time I talked to a JW. I was young, in my early twenties, and this JW woman came knocking on my door. My husband was at work and my daughter was just a little baby. The first thing she said was, "Would you like to hear some good news"? and she was smiling. Being just the way that I am, I would have invited her in anyway because it was a warm day and she was most likely thirsty and had been walking quite a bit and needed to sit down and rest. If it had been a man then no, I wouldn't have invited him in but I would have offered him a cold drink and maybe just stand at the door with him outside and talk to him. I didn't know anything about JWs at that time.

I invited her in and she was also talking about the paradise earth and those other ones who go to heaven. I remember being heartbroken at the thought that so many people wouldn't go to heaven. And I remember saying, I don't want to live forever on this earth. And she said, oh but it won't be like it is now, it will be a paradise. That didn't make me feel better when I compared even a paradise earth to heaven. It really felt more like a punishment. But I wasn't thinking at the time, wait a minute, these people don't have the right to tell me if I'm going to heaven or not. That's not their decision. That was the first red flag having someone tell me that I wasn't going to heaven and making me feel heartbroken and sad. But we don't always listen to warnings. We have to learn the hard way. I was just too young and naïve and trusting.

 

[fktadams]

They also claim there is no hell fire , is it true?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached from way back. John prepared the way for it and it went from there.

Paul said his Gospel was something hidden until revealed by God to him.

What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Gen-O needs to stick with his Watchtower comic books.

I never heard of them before and have no desire to borrow yours to find out what they are.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.

GO, what was the reason for Israel's being cut off?

 

[KingdomRose]

Which just shows how much you know about the Greek text.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1&version=NKJV

The above is not how the original Greek was worded (pardon the pun).

Here is how the Greek reads:

ʼΕν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεός ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

In[the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the word.

(The Greek uses τὸν Θεόν, which literally translates as "the god," as there's no Greek word for YHWH.)

KR, examine the two following sentences:

"The father and the husband went to the store."

"The father and husband went to the store."

Tell me, KR, how many people is the first sentence speaking of? The second sentence?

The father and the husband would BOTH have the definite article in Greek if the writer was referring to the same Person.

 

[KingdomRose]

How quickly you condemn and say that members of the churches in Christendom are getting ripped off with their paid clergy and the demand for tithes. Yet you have failed to research the Watchtower Society to find out how they have amassed billions of dollars, which is not surprising that you are not aware of how that was done.

Though condemning the world's commercial system as part of Satan's system, the Watchtower Society has not held back from utilising it to the fullest, in the process becoming a multi-billion dollar organization. In 2010, the valuation of Watchtower real-estate in Brooklyn alone exceeded a billion dollars. By claiming religious or charity status, the billions earned over the last century have been largely tax free.

The Watchtower Society has used stocks, bonds and trusts as investment vehicles. One such trust was the H M Riley Trust, from the deceased estate of Henrietta Riley.

This trust trades in a wide spread of bonds and shares in companies such as Exxon Mobil, Coca Cola, Proctor & Gamble, Phillip Morris (one of the world's largest cigarette manufacturers) and Cardinal Health (who supply medical equipment including for blood transfusions.)

In 2007, Watchtower had an SEC filing for a $40 million dollar hedge fund through K2 STB Fund Ltd, located in the Cayman Islands. ......Note of interest: The Cayman Islands has become a popular tax haven among the American elite and large multinational corporations because there is no corporate or income tax on money earned outside of its territory.

Shares have also been held in Rand, a supplier to the U.S. Department of Defence, as shown by a SEC filing as of 20th Feb 2015.

Watchtower was an attendee at the Goldman Sachs 2012 Growth Markets Summit, Growth Markets Insights: Shaping Global Investment Themes.

So we have a clearer picture of how the Watchtower Society has amassed billions of dollars.

How can you say that I "have failed to research how the WT gets its money?" I know exactly how it gets its money, and how it has gotten its money from the start of Charles T. Russell's ministry. You do not really know anything about it.

 

[KingdomRose]

You jump to conclusions.

I have not made a case that it does.
???????

I don't need to, as I can already read, write, and speak Greek (and Hebrew also).

Then how can you not know that Revelation 1:17 uses the actual Greek words for "first" and "last" and NOT "Alpha and Omega?"

Look at an Interlinear Bible, such as the one I have: The Interlinear Bible/ Hebrew, Greek, and English published by Hendrickson.

 

[KingdomRose]

I'm not talking about someone that you give a pamphlet to paying anything.
I'm asking how much you have to give for those pamphlets to begin with so that you have them to pass out.

We don't give anything for them.

 

[KingdomRose]

Ok well, amazingly we might agree on something, albeit for different reasons.

The 12 are to sit and judge the 12 tribes. We are not the 12 tribes so the 12 will not be judging us. Paul was the 1st member of the Church which is Body of Christ.

Actually, the first members were the 12 Apostles (Judas being replaced) and then those that were anointed by Holy Spirit in the upper room at Pentecost.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The father and the husband would BOTH have the definite article in Greek if the writer was referring to the same Person.

No, if the writer was referring to the same Person, (as he does in 1:1) then only one subject would have the definite article, if he was referring to two different Persons, then there would be an article before both subjects.

"The Father" and "The Husband" in my first sentence are two different people. This is an established rule in grammar in, afaik, every single language on earth, including KOINE Greek. When two subjects (talking about sentence structure here) both have an article in front of them, then they are considered two different subjects, and not the same subject referred to twice.

In my second sentence ("The father and husband"), there is only one person being referred to. In John 1:1 (direct Greek translation), "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God (subject), and God (subject) was the Word."

"The father (subject) and the husband (another subject) went to the store."

"The father (subject) and husband (same subject) went to the store."

It's called the Granville Sharp rule. Look it up.

Oh wait, the Governing Body doesn't allow that, does it?

 

[truthjourney]

How can you say that I "have failed to research how the WT gets its money?" I know exactly how it gets its money, and how it has gotten its money from the start of Charles T. Russell's ministry. You do not really know anything about it.

Then enlighten me. Tell me how the Watchtower Society has amassed multi-billions of dollars. And don't tell me it's from contributions.

Don't underestimate what I know. I make it my business to know. I have friends who are JWs and they have children. So I am well informed on many things. Fortunately I don't have any family in that organization.

Ok fine then. Since you want to say that I don't know anything about it; then I will tell you that you are too brainwashed and blinded by the Governing Body to know or see anything but what you are told by them.

 

[KingdomRose]

A Greek lesson for you.

John 1:1 (Greek and English)

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The article in a prepositional phrase is normally dropped in Koine Greek.
The absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal, and thus no significance.

For example:
The prepositional phrase 'εν αρχη' (literally, 'in beginning')doesn't use an article (the), but is properly translated to English grammar as "in the beginning."

​

​

It is the inclusion of the article in a prepositional phrase that is unusual, and thus draws attention to it (placing an emphasis on it).

Greek makes a distinction of the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case.
Generally, when the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative case, and if it is the direct object, it is in the accusative case.
But there will be times when there are two nominative case nouns in the same phrase, so how does one determine which is the subject?
Here is the rule to determine it:

​

A. If both nouns have the article attached, the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.

B. If neither noun has the article attached, the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.

C. If one noun has an article and the other does not, the one with the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate. ​

​

There are 3 phrases in the verse.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος
και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον
και θεος ην ο λογος


​

So let's look at the last phrase of John 1:1.
και θεος ην ο λογος
Both nouns are in the nominative case, but one has an article and the other does not.
και means "and".
λογος has an article (o) and θεος does not.
Thus it falls under C. --- o λογος (the Word) is the subject, while θεος (God) is the predicate.

Some folks get mixed up due to Greek syntax, because in Greek it doesn't matter WHERE is the phrase the subject falls (first or last), it will not change the grammatical construction, while in English it does.
English grammar puts the subject first.
Thus the English translation is "the Word was God", instead of "God was the Word", because "the Word" is the subject.

But it goes even further than that, as the last phrase causes us to place emphasis on it because of the unusual placement and thus drawing attention to it.
It is akin to saying 'After hearing what I have just said (in the first two phrases), let me make it VERY CLEAR!!!!!! that the Word is God'.



The ruling is often referred to as the Granville Sharp rule.
The interesting thing about this rule is that there has never been an exception found.
Not only in biblical literature, but in any Greek literature.

Not at all.

Greek has only a DEFINITE article, like "the" in English; it does not have an indefinite article, like "a." So a Greek definite noun will have a form of the definite article (ho), which will become "the" in English. A Greek indefinite noun will appear without the definite article, and will be properly rendered in English with "a" or "an." We are not "adding a word" when we translate Greek nouns that do not have the definite article as English nouns with the indefinite article. We are simply obeying the rules of English grammar that tell us, for example, that we can't say "Snoopy is dog," but must say "Snoopy is a dog." In John 1:1c, the clause ho logos is "the word," as all translations accurately have it. If it was written simply logos, without the definite article "ho,", we would have to translate it as "a word."

Therefore the Word is not "the" God.

 

[musterion]

What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.

Gentiles already were included in the "great commission."

Try again. No, better yet, quit while you're behind.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not at all.

Greek has only a DEFINITE article, like "the" in English; it does not have an indefinite article, like "a." So a Greek definite noun will have a form of the definite article (ho), which will become "the" in English. A Greek indefinite noun will appear without the definite article, and will be properly rendered in English with "a" or "an." We are not "adding a word" when we translate Greek nouns that do not have the definite article as English nouns with the indefinite article. We are simply obeying the rules of English grammar that tell us, for example, that we can't say "Snoopy is dog," but must say "Snoopy is a dog." In John 1:1c, the clause ho logos is "the word," as all translations accurately have it. If it was written simply logos, without the definite article "ho,", we would have to translate it as "a word."

Therefore the Word is not "the" God.

See here:

No, if the writer was referring to the same Person, (as he does in 1:1) then only one subject would have the definite article, if he was referring to two different Persons, then there would be an article before both subjects.

"The Father" and "The Husband" in my first sentence are two different people. This is an established rule in grammar in, afaik, every single language on earth, including KOINE Greek. When two subjects (talking about sentence structure here) both have an article in front of them, then they are considered two different subjects, and not the same subject referred to twice.

In my second sentence ("The father and husband"), there is only one person being referred to. In John 1:1 (direct Greek translation), "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God (subject), and God (subject) was the Word."

"The father (subject) and the husband (another subject) went to the store."

"The father (subject) and husband (same subject) went to the store."

It's called the Granville Sharp rule. Look it up.

Oh wait, the Governing Body doesn't allow that, does it?

 

[KingdomRose]

Foolish woman, there is no place where 12 tribes is symbolic of the whole world.
We know exactly what the 12 tribes are all throughout scripture.

Why are the 12 tribes listed in Revelation different than those listed in the Hebrew Scriptures (see Genesis 49:28)?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I never heard of them before and have no desire to borrow yours to find out what they are.

Your so-called WIT is duller than your intellect. I'd have that checked if I were you? By the way, I'm glad I'm not you.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Gentiles already were included in the "great commission."

Try again. No, better yet, quit while you're behind.

:rotfl:

 

[KingdomRose]

The first time a JW tried that spiel on me, I heard a loud gong go off in my head. :chuckle:

Really? Are you recovered from that now? Did you actually reason on what the JW's spiel was saying? They were correct. Your take on it is not.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.

You're truly IGNORANT of what Paul was preaching, yet, you pretend to know ALL things relevant.