Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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glorydaz said:
Why is it so hard for you to answer a simple question?

Do you believe God came in the flesh to dwell among us?
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I know for a fact that the Bible clearly teaches that God sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:10
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.​

Are you trying to get me to claim that God did not send His Son?
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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genuineoriginal said:
I am assuming you are referring to the part that says all the trees of Eden went down into hell.

Ezekiel 31:15-17
15 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.​


Do you know how to identify the differences between historical narrative and prophecy in the Bible?
Genesis 2-3 is presented as a historical narrative, where the events are plainly stated.
Ezekiel 31 is presented as a prophecy, where the true nature of what is being talked about is hidden in symbols.

Is your next question going to be about Psalm 91 that clearly teaches that God has feathers and wings, or are you going to acknowledge that it and the rest of the Psalms take poetic license with the descriptions in them?
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Nope. So you read Ezekiel 31? Good. Now, instead of imagining God speaking to Pharaoh about a nation, imagine Him speaking about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, describing an event that triggered the Flood.

Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying,“Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, With fine branches that shaded the forest, And of high stature; And its top was among the thick boughs.The waters made it grow; Underground waters gave it height, With their rivers running around the place where it was planted, And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field.‘Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field; Its boughs were multiplied, And its branches became long because of the abundance of water, As it sent them out.All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young; And in its shadow all great nations made their home.‘Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches, Because its roots reached to abundant waters.The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it; The fir trees were not like its boughs, And the chestnut trees were not like its branches; No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches, So that all the trees of Eden envied it, That were in the garden of God.’“Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height,therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness.And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.‘On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens, And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches—‘So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them. ‘For they have all been delivered to death, To the depths of the earth, Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’“Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.” - Ezekiel 31:1-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel31:1-18&version=NKJV

Would you agree that this sounds like an event that actually happened (talking about what happened to the tree, not the nation)?
 
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glorydaz

glorydaz

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genuineoriginal said:
I know for a fact that the Bible clearly teaches that God sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:10
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.​

Are you trying to get me to claim that God did not send His Son?
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I just wonder why you deny so much of what is written, while holding so tightly onto that which you think denies Jesus is God come in the flesh. What you claim is not new, ....let's use that verse as an example. "God ....sent his Son..."

Jesus says He "came out from God". Sounds like He was "with God and was God" to me. John 1:1

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.​

Looks like He became flesh and dwelt among us to me. John 1:14

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?​

The Jews didn't understand it, either. Perhaps they hadn't read John 1:1.

So, toss out those verses you don't agree with and try to stand on Christ's humanity. It's no wonder you are blinded to the Gospel of Salvation. Salvation by grace through faith. Your faith is not in God, but in someone you can't identify as being God....from what I can tell.


"Let us make man in our image..."

The "US" consists of Father, Word (Son), and Holy Spirit. The Son was sent, so He came out from God, came down from heaven, and dwelt among us a the Lord Jesus Christ. So clear.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Tambora said:
Don't need a history lesson, I have scripture.

That GOD is a triune unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is all throughout scripture.
Don't rely on your history books to interpret scripture, rely on scripture to interpret scripture, as I do.
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Yet the co-eternal nature of the Son....manifest as man being equal to the FATHER is not.

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popsthebuilder

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JudgeRightly said:
TRANSLATION:


I'm too much of a coward to prove my own assertions, so I'm going to let someone else prove them for me.



-----------------

BUZZ OFF, MESHAK!

Bearing false witness is a sin.
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What was the question?

I'm curious.

Just a post number if you don't feel like repeating yourself.

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popsthebuilder

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JudgeRightly said:
Pretty sure the Apostle John wrote both John and Revelation...



Um, pretty sure YOU'RE the one who needs to pay attention, especially to context...:


His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.



That's the name referred to in Revelation 3:12. No one knows it.


He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. - Revelation 19:12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation19:12-13&version=NKJV



This is a different name than the one written on him, one that he ALREADY HAS, and that was known by John.

If "The Word of God" was the new name that was written on Him that "no one knew but Himself," then how the heck does John know it?

Your arguments are not consistent at all, let alone with Scripture.

Here are a few pieces of evidence that Jesus is God (because "by two or three witnesses a matter is established"):


Jesus (in Revelation) is called The Word of God.

Jesus (in John) is called the Word.

The Word (in John) is said (in the beginning) to have been with God and to be God (or as the Greek puts it, "God was the Word").




Jesus (in John) was nearly stoned at least twice because the Jews knew that by calling Himself the Son of God He was claiming to be God Himself.




Jesus (in Matthew) tells Lucifer that only God is to be worshipped.

No godly (ie God-focused) created being (throughout the Bible) is ever to be described as accepting ANY worship, EXCEPT for Jesus.

Jesus accepts worship several times in the Bible. (see my post above which contains verses on worship)



(From kgov.com/deity)

Thus saith the LORD If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, “Thus says the Lord” we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, “Thus saith the Lord.” Rather, Jesus proclaims, “I say to you,” in the Gospels! Not a single “Thus says the Lord,” but rather, “I say to you,” 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His teaching. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord focused His message on Himself:

Christ’s Self-focus:

“Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22

Pray and act “in My name” 18xMt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15

“the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26

“for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5xMt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16

Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31

“believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20

You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18

Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26

“come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27

Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10

“where two or three are gathered,” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20

So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5

“know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24

Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4xMt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22

“I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23

“I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41

”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8

Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38

Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"

“love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28

Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23

Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]

“I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12

Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38

“Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37

“I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28

“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30

I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42

I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]

Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14

“keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30

The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30

Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15

“all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10

“My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33

“My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11

“Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15

Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48

Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33

Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19

“you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41

Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47

Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]

“He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16

Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40

Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32

Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35

“I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7

The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26

We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]

“You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27

Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11

“the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21

“seek Me” Jn. 6:26

Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26

“all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23

“I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51

Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56

Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56

“I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection

“The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7

“I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46

“I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18

“know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]

“the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36

“Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58

Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27

“I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28

“I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25

I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32

“I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3

Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24

“I am the vine” Jn. 15:5

“without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16

Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
“because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3

The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14

“All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15

“the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27

“If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22

“I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33

“I am the way” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the life” Jn. 14:6

“I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21



All of these points are extremely strong evidence that Jesus is God.

You make Him out to be a liar or a lunatic, of which HE IS NEITHER.

Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or He's YHWH, LORD, GOD. There are no other possibilities.


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How very closed off and compartmentalized.

Every word He spoke was the FATHER'S Word. The Spirit that was in Him was the FATHER'S Spirit/ the Holy Spirit. Like you said.....it is the same thing as in the ot. A messenger of GOD, or the anointed of GOD would always speak on the behalf of GOD; who else? Jesus made this plainly clear and obvious saying all He ever did was what the FATHER gave Him to do.

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JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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popsthebuilder said:
What was the question?

I'm curious.

Just a post number if you don't feel like repeating yourself.

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glorydaz said:
There is a little blue arrow after the posters name..."originally posted by.." Click on that little blue arrow and it will take you back to the post in question.
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Pops uses the Tapatalk app.

Pops, the arrow is white, but doesn't always take you straight to the post. But it'll get you close.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
John 1:1 states; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus IS the 'Word' being spoken of. Jesus IS the creator of all that is. What in the world is Gen-O speaking about?
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Not Jesus the man though.

The Word was GOD...GOD IS spirit. The Word before becoming man was Spirit.

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JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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popsthebuilder said:
How very closed off and compartmentalized.

Every word He spoke was the FATHER'S Word. The Spirit that was in Him was the FATHER'S Spirit/ the Holy Spirit. Like you said.....it is the same thing as in the ot. A messenger of GOD, or the anointed of GOD would always speak on the behalf of GOD; who else? Jesus made this plainly clear and obvious saying all He ever did was what the FATHER gave Him to do.

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"Thus saith the LORD" is only used in the Old Testament, and is ALWAYS used when a prophet is relaying God's words directly.

"I say unto you" is only used in the New Testament, AND ONLY BY JESUS. Not one of the twelve use it, even after Jesus' ascension.

If Jesus were merely human, and not God, He would have used "Thus saith the LORD," and not "I say unto you." Jesus uses the latter because HE IS GOD SPEAKING IN THE FLESH, NOT A MERE MAN WHO HAD AUTHORITY.

Pops, if Jesus was anyone other than God, commanding anyone to, for example, "love Me more than you love your family members" would be extremely selfish and immoral. But God alone can say that and remain righteous.
 
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popsthebuilder

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JudgeRightly said:
"Thus saith the LORD" is only used in the Old Testament, and is ALWAYS used when a prophet is relaying God's words directly.

"I say unto you" is only used in the New Testament, AND ONLY BY JESUS. Not one of the twelve use it, even after Jesus' ascension.

If Jesus were merely human, and not God, He would have used "Thus saith the LORD," and not "I say unto you." Jesus uses the latter because HE IS GOD SPEAKING IN THE FLESH, NOT A MERE MAN WHO HAD AUTHORITY.

Pops, if Jesus was anyone other than God, commanding anyone to, for example, "love Me more than you love your family members" would be extremely selfish and immoral. But God alone can say that and remain righteous.
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Of course friend.

He are not in disagreement on this believe it or not.

He was speaking on behalf of the Father; mediator....

If the nt was in Hebrew what would it say?

Moses was actually considered God by His followers.

Like I said; every word was given Him by GOD to speak.


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