You can google an image by opening your browser to Google, and then dragging the image to the search bar.
Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!
- Thread starter Apple7
- Start date
Apple7
New member
Then you partially endorse this Trinitarian English rendering.
That's a great start, Trev!
Actually, the name Yahweh is revealed in Exo 6.2 - 3.
Furthermore, you are famous for EXCLUDING valuable context leading up to your centerpiece example of Exo 3.14, as thus...
Exodus 3.1 - 6
And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.
These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.
Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.
Who occupied the burning bush?
• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)
Apple7
New member
Defining the key terms in view...
יְהוָה = ‘Yahweh’
‘Yahweh’ definition:
H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root ‘hawa’ H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. ‘The existing one’.
H1961 ‘hawa’ A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use. The question is whether or not it is the verb ‘to be’ in the Qal, ‘He is’ or the Hiphil, ‘He causes to be,’ a view championed by W. F. Albright. The strongest objection to this latter interpretation is that it necessitates a correction in the reading of the key text in Ex 3.14: ‘I am that I am.’ Most likely the name should be transalted something like ‘I am he who is,’ or ‘I am he who exists’ as a reflected by the LXX’s ego eimi ho ov.
H1933 ‘havah’ A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.
References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212; 214
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426
Greetings again JudgeRightly and Apple7,
Exodus 3:12–15 (KJV): 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM (RV mg: I will be what I will be): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM (RV mg: I will be) hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (He who will be or become) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Kind regards
Trevor
I tried but still doing something wrong. I will stick with John Calvin unless otherwise corrected.
There are most probably 50 or more English translations, and each of these are given by God to some extent. I do use the KJV and other translations, but I suggest that there is no justification for your method of squeezing the Trinity into every verse as you seem to do. In most verses they are faithful in their translation. I prefer “congregation” in Revelation 2:1 as per Tyndale instead of the KJV “church”, but using the KJV does not mean that I endorse the Church of England as the true church in faith and buildings, rather than those called out by the true gospel who are the faithful.
The word “Yahweh” occurs earlier here in Exodus 3:15, and this is understood as the 3rd Person of the Name, while “I will be” is the first person of the Name.
Exodus 3:12–15 (KJV): 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM (RV mg: I will be what I will be): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM (RV mg: I will be) hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (He who will be or become) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
The Messenger or Angel of Yahweh is a messenger, not Yahweh Himself. The Angel is authorised to speak and act on Yahweh’s behalf.
I appreciate your response and definition. I believe that Yahweh is in the future tense. I have seen thorough discussions on this issue.
Kind regards
Trevor
Apple7
New member
Since you can't be bothered with studying the original languages, and you provide ZERO references for your stance....how are you going to convince anyone of your worldview, Trev..?
Then God is more than one-person!
Thanks, Trev!
No, Trev....
Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).
Keep trying...
Apple7
New member
Trev...more clinic time for you regarding Malek Yahweh...
And Malek Yahweh called to him from the heavens and said, Abraham! Abraham! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you are a God-fearer, and you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold! A ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh Will See; so that it is said until this day, In the mount of Yahweh it will be seen. (Gen 22.11 -14)
Here we have the classic story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God.
But, as we can easily see, the sacrifice is to Malek Yahweh.
So...please purge that cultic-thinking of yours, and wake up, Trev...
And Malek Yahweh called to him from the heavens and said, Abraham! Abraham! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you are a God-fearer, and you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold! A ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh Will See; so that it is said until this day, In the mount of Yahweh it will be seen. (Gen 22.11 -14)
Here we have the classic story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God.
But, as we can easily see, the sacrifice is to Malek Yahweh.
So...please purge that cultic-thinking of yours, and wake up, Trev...
Apple7
New member
Trev...just for you...
Observe, Malek Yahweh, as Yahweh...
Hebrews 6.11 - 14
But we desire each of you to show the same eagerness, to the full assurance of the hope to the end; that you not become dull, but imitators of those who through faith and longsuffering are inheriting the promises. For God having made promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, "He swore by Himself," saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." (Gen. 22.16, 17)
Referring to...
Gen 22.15 - 18
And the Malek Yahweh called to Abraham out of the heavens a second time. And He said, I have sworn by Myself, declares Yahweh, that on account of this thing you have done, and have not withheld your son, your only son, that blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the shore of the sea. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies. And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because you have obeyed My voice.
No granting of authority here...Malek Yahweh swears by Himself because there is no one greater than He.
Again, even the NT authors understood this much.
The Book of Hebrews just slaughters your position completely.
Observe, Malek Yahweh, as Yahweh...
Hebrews 6.11 - 14
But we desire each of you to show the same eagerness, to the full assurance of the hope to the end; that you not become dull, but imitators of those who through faith and longsuffering are inheriting the promises. For God having made promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, "He swore by Himself," saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." (Gen. 22.16, 17)
Referring to...
Gen 22.15 - 18
And the Malek Yahweh called to Abraham out of the heavens a second time. And He said, I have sworn by Myself, declares Yahweh, that on account of this thing you have done, and have not withheld your son, your only son, that blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the shore of the sea. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies. And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because you have obeyed My voice.
No granting of authority here...Malek Yahweh swears by Himself because there is no one greater than He.
Again, even the NT authors understood this much.
The Book of Hebrews just slaughters your position completely.
Greetings again Apple7,
Kind regards
Trevor
Not everyone has reached the heights of scholarship as you have. I quite enjoy my level.
Perhaps despite your great language skills you do not seem to know the difference in English between “I” and “He”. Nothing to do with the Trinity. You are exercising your usual vivid imagination to squeeze in the Trinity again.Then God is more than one-person! Thanks, Trev!
You do not seem to be able to understand how the Scriptures show that the Angel(s) represented God and spoke and acted on his behalf.
Kind regards
Trevor
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.
This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.
When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.
But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.
Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Kind regards
Trevor
The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.
This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.
When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.
But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.
Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Kind regards
Trevor
Apple7
New member
Wrong again, Trev...
Your reply is the quintessential comment that is to be expected from the cultic mind that seeks to deny The Trinity.
Malek Yahweh carries the NAME Yahweh, speaks AS Yahweh, swears by HIMSELF,and is given burnt offerings.
Keep burying your head in the sand...
Apple7
New member
You seem to not know what The Trinity is.
Tell us what you think it is, in your own words...
Apple7,
Tell us what you think it is, in your own words..."
I think the trinity doctrine is generally considered to be the notion that there is one supreme being who operates using three distinct individuals.
BTW, why did you quote my question and then not respond to it?
Tell us what you think it is, in your own words..."
I think the trinity doctrine is generally considered to be the notion that there is one supreme being who operates using three distinct individuals.
BTW, why did you quote my question and then not respond to it?
Apple7
New member
Your questions indicate an improper premise of The Trinity.
Greetings again Apple7,
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This is true worship. There is One God, Yahweh, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
The following is sufficient summary of our differences. Jesus has now been exalted to the right hand of God, and has been given a Name above every Name, and when we bow the knee to Jesus and worship confessing that Jesus is Lord (either in the sense of Master, Ruler, Lord or the Name Yahweh which he has been given), then this redounds to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This is true worship. There is One God, Yahweh, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Apple7
New member
οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος
oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios
And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)
Greetings again Apple7,
Kind regards
Trevor
This is teaching that the Father is the true God. 2 John 7 has a similar sequence, where “this” does not refer back to the immediately preceding noun. In another sense, Jesus is now part of Deity, as the Son of God, and can be addressed as God in a similar way as the Angels and Judges were called Elohim, and in the same way that Thomas could address Jesus as my Lord and my God. Jesus is a development of the Yahweh Name as I mentioned in the last post on page 182. You may have missed this, as I did not address it directly to you.
Kind regards
Trevor
Denying what the Bible PLAINLY says in favor of some other meaning is generally the shortest path to rejecting God.
It's exactly what you're doing. The text plainly says that Jesus is God (speaking of Timothy's words), yet you squirm and writhe and wiggle trying to just explain it away as something else.
Why is it so hard for you people to accept that Jesus is God when scripture clearly states that He is, instead of twisting what it says to deny His deity?
Greetings again JudgeRightly,
As far as 1 John 5:20 is concerned, I gave three possible alternatives from my perspective and I prefer a mild blend of the second or third. Apple7 may be more familiar with what I suggested in the first, as it is actually based partly upon comments by a Trinitarian and this shows that not all Trinitarians use your particular view of this verse. I looked up a book as I was in part trying to read how a Trinitarian really reads this verse, as Apple7 did not really explain what he was inferring and I came across a contrary view to that suggested by you and Apple7.
I will see what Apple7 will say on the first alternative as he seems to be leading the way in this thread, and seems to have more experience on the subject of the Trinity, even pictured in his avatar, while you are mostly endorsing nearly everything he says, no matter how marginal some of his comments are. I can understand that you see the need to support the cause, and any ammunition is thus almost made sanctified, but you need to judge rightly, otherwise it reminds me of calling a ship the Titanic. Cheer up, I do not intend to answer much more in this thread as it has run its course with much repetition and impossible with 183 pages. The last post on page 182 represents a significant portion of my overall perspective.
Kind regards
Trevor
I can appreciate your feelings and thoughts based on your present position and possibly years of environment where you hold firmly to the Trinity. I was brought up in believing in the One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and I find this teaching in nearly every chapter of the Bible. The Trinitarian concept seems extremely foreign to my thinking and I cannot accept the logic and definitions.
As far as 1 John 5:20 is concerned, I gave three possible alternatives from my perspective and I prefer a mild blend of the second or third. Apple7 may be more familiar with what I suggested in the first, as it is actually based partly upon comments by a Trinitarian and this shows that not all Trinitarians use your particular view of this verse. I looked up a book as I was in part trying to read how a Trinitarian really reads this verse, as Apple7 did not really explain what he was inferring and I came across a contrary view to that suggested by you and Apple7.
I will see what Apple7 will say on the first alternative as he seems to be leading the way in this thread, and seems to have more experience on the subject of the Trinity, even pictured in his avatar, while you are mostly endorsing nearly everything he says, no matter how marginal some of his comments are. I can understand that you see the need to support the cause, and any ammunition is thus almost made sanctified, but you need to judge rightly, otherwise it reminds me of calling a ship the Titanic. Cheer up, I do not intend to answer much more in this thread as it has run its course with much repetition and impossible with 183 pages. The last post on page 182 represents a significant portion of my overall perspective.
Kind regards
Trevor
Apple7
New member
Learn some Greek.
Learn some Greek.
To start with, the 'elohim' polemic is a pathetic attempt used by cults, like yours, as a lame attempt to thwart The Trinity.
God's own personal name, Yahweh, is the term that you need to address, NOT elohim!
How many mere angels and judges are called Yahweh?
That's right, Zero.
Any Malek called Yahweh (i.e. Malek Yahweh) refers to Yahweh, and Yahweh does NOT share His name with anyone.
Further, let's review your ignorance of the Greek, some more...
The reference scripture:
1 John 5.20
οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος
oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios
And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)
Compare...
Rev 3.7
και τω αγγελω της εν φιλαδελφεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αγιος ο αληθινος ο εχων την κλειν δαυιδ ο ανοιγων και ουδεις κλεισει και κλειων και ουδεις ανοιγει
Kai tō angelō tēs en Philadelpheia ekklēsias grapson tade legei ho hagios ho alēthinos ho echōn tēn klein Dauid ho anoigōn kai oudeis kleisei kai kleiōn kai oudeis anoigei
And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:"
Compare...
Rev 3.14
και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai ho alēthinos hē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou
Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and the true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:
The ONLY two locations of ‘ho alēthinos’ that exist outside of 1 John 5.20, in the entire Holy Bible, BOTH refer to Jesus!
Therefore, 1 John 5.20 also refers to Jesus.
Trev...your pitiful attempt to compare 2 John 1.7 (a typo on your part btw)does not even consider itself, much less 1 John 5.20.
Learn some Greek.
To start with, the 'elohim' polemic is a pathetic attempt used by cults, like yours, as a lame attempt to thwart The Trinity.
God's own personal name, Yahweh, is the term that you need to address, NOT elohim!
How many mere angels and judges are called Yahweh?
That's right, Zero.
Any Malek called Yahweh (i.e. Malek Yahweh) refers to Yahweh, and Yahweh does NOT share His name with anyone.
Further, let's review your ignorance of the Greek, some more...
The reference scripture:
1 John 5.20
οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος
oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios
And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)
Compare...
Rev 3.7
και τω αγγελω της εν φιλαδελφεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αγιος ο αληθινος ο εχων την κλειν δαυιδ ο ανοιγων και ουδεις κλεισει και κλειων και ουδεις ανοιγει
Kai tō angelō tēs en Philadelpheia ekklēsias grapson tade legei ho hagios ho alēthinos ho echōn tēn klein Dauid ho anoigōn kai oudeis kleisei kai kleiōn kai oudeis anoigei
And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:"
Compare...
Rev 3.14
και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai ho alēthinos hē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou
Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and the true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:
The ONLY two locations of ‘ho alēthinos’ that exist outside of 1 John 5.20, in the entire Holy Bible, BOTH refer to Jesus!
Therefore, 1 John 5.20 also refers to Jesus.
Trev...your pitiful attempt to compare 2 John 1.7 (a typo on your part btw)does not even consider itself, much less 1 John 5.20.