Christian Kids in the Public School

[The Barbarian]

And pastor kevin shakes those pom-poms again. At this point, there's nothing you can do to save Yorzhik, Kevin.

 

[Yorzhik]

I see you still haven't shown that I've said kindergarten teachers are wolves. You might as well just admit you lied about it.

Likewise, I notice you again declined to show where I said it was wrong to judge. I know you thought you were entitled to say I did, because I hadn't made a statment about it, but that's considered dishonest by Christians, at least.

And, of course, you also lied when you claimed I said that Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values. By way of excuse, you said that you thought it was true, which I suppose is your justification for lying about me saying it.

You aren't a very honest person. And you're not very smart, or you would have simply admitted you lied, and let it go. Nothing you can do or say will make it better, except to admit it.

Really? I said this: "Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?" You'll notice, this was a question. Are you sure you know what a lie is?

What age do kids start kindergarten? You know, Barbarian thought it laughable that a school system composed mostly of Christian teachers could be antiChristian.

I notice the numbers apply only to evangelical Christians. Regular Christians have much better retention than that.

By regular Christians you mean those that believe in the Godless worldview of the public schools. I'm not surprised they don't lose their faith... their faith being as it is.

There are many reasons why this is true.

And chief among the reasons that evangelicals are most affected is that evangelicals in stated beliefs disagree the most with what is taught in public school.

Did you know evangelicals have higher divorce rates than orthodox Christians? In fact, evangelicals have higher divorce rates than atheists.

I wouldn't doubt that. With the Settled View being so pervasive in evangelical circles, and with most children of evangelicals going to public school, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Yorzhik]

And pastor kevin shakes those pom-poms again. At this point, there's nothing you can do to save Yorzhik, Kevin.

Your a mean one. PK actually had some substance in his post regarding your debate style.

 

[Mr. 5020]

(Barbarian points out facts)

Lighthouse comes up with a typical homeschooler argument:
"You're an idiot."

(Barbarian laughs)

For somebody that hates lying, in this post, you lied about Lighthouse being homeschooled. You didn't know, but you stated it as fact...the very thing you are accusing Yorzhik of doing.

But you do homeschool your kids, don't you? You certainly argue like a homeschooler. :rotfl:

And then you lie again. Lighthouse doesn't have children. You didn't know, but you stated it as fact.

And now we have to watch a whole thread hijacked because of your incessant whining about another poster using the same behavior as you. :nono:

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian points out facts)

Lighthouse comes up with a typical homeschooler argument:
"You're an idiot."

(Barbarian laughs)

For somebody that hates lying, in this post, you lied about Lighthouse being homeschooled.

I didn't say he was. I said he came up with a typical homeschooler argument.

You didn't know, but you stated it as fact...

Actually, I didn't. Read it again.

Barbarian observes:
But you do homeschool your kids, don't you? You certainly argue like a homeschooler.

And then you lie again.

A question? How is that a lie? You're reaching too far over the candle. Gonna get burned doing that.

Lighthouse doesn't have children. You didn't know, but you stated it as fact.

I asked if it was a fact. I'm wondering how it is you can't distinguish a question from a lie.

You post might have seemed like a clever spin on the facts when you wrote it. But it didn't work out that way, did it? Think it over, and learn from it.

 

[Mr. 5020]

A question? How is that a lie? You're reaching too far over the candle. Gonna get burned doing that.

I asked if it was a fact. I'm wondering how it is you can't distinguish a question from a lie.

Now you're catching on. :up:

Really? I said this: "Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?" You'll notice, this was a question. Are you sure you know what a lie is?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
A question? How is that a lie? You're reaching too far over the candle. Gonna get burned doing that.

I asked if it was a fact. I'm wondering how it is you can't distinguish a question from a lie.

Now you're catching on.

Yorzhic lies:
Really? I said this: "Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?" You'll notice, this was a question. Are you sure you know what a lie is?

Note that the question is why he thinks I can't say it's wrong to judge. He already admitted that he made up the lie that I thought it was wrong to judge. He didn't lie about what I could say; he lied about what I thought.

The more you try to spin your way out, the deeper in it gets you. Count on it. Honesty is the only way to extricate yourself.

 

[PKevman]

Barbarian, this back and forth is so silly its barely readable. Seriously. Answer the question plainly and the issue goes away. Simple, straightforward, and honest is the best approach. Do you or do you not believe it is wrong for Christians to judge? Very simple yes or no question.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, this back and forth is so silly its barely readable.

I have to say, Kevin, that your attempts at cheerleading haven't helped matters any. You shouldn't take part, if you haven't got anything to say.

Seriously. Answer the question plainly and the issue goes away. Simple, straightforward, and honest is the best approach. Do you or do you not believe it is wrong for Christians to judge?

Why don't you simply read what I said? Since you don't seem inclined to actually read what I wrote in the thread, I'll go back and quote it for you:

Yorzhik falsely accuses Barbarian:
Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?

Barbarian observes:
I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. Sometimes, it's O.K. to judge. You just made up that one. I never told you it was wrong to judge. Remember, honesty may be less satisfying at the moment, but it's the only way to go in the long run.

I don't think it should be necessary to say that if you had read the thread instead of jumping in unprepared, you wouldn't have had this problem, but apparently, it is. Think about it. And try to do better.







Very simple yes or no question.

 

[JoyfulRook]

(Barbarian points out facts)

Lighthouse comes up with a typical homeschooler argument:
"You're an idiot."

(Barbarian laughs)

Whoa there, bud. What's this about labeling ad homs as "a typical homeschooler argument?" First, Lighthouse wasn't homeschooled as far as I know. Secondly, many of the brightest, most eloquent, and most persuasive debaters in the nation are homeschooled. I'm sorry, but your statement just points out how uninformed you are and how correct Lighthouse was in assessing the situation.

 

[The Barbarian]

Whoa there, bud. What's this about labeling ad homs as "a typical homeschooler argument?" First, Lighthouse wasn't homeschooled as far as I know.

But he does favor homeschooling, and disparages our public schools, which as you might know, outperform the schools of most other nations. And, as you possibly know, he called me an idiot for citing evidence. Sounds like a homeschooler to me.

Secondly, many of the brightest, most eloquent, and most persuasive debaters in the nation are homeschooled.

Hmm... If that was true, he certainly wouldn't have been homeschooled, um? Good point. If a debater responded to evidence with "you're an idiot", he'd be laughed out of the room.

I'm sorry, but your statement just points out how uninformed you are

I have encountered a good number of homeschoolers, and they generally respond badly when they see how our public schools rate compared to those of other nations. Not all of them are foolish enough to just scream insults, but they generally don't want to see the numbers.

and how correct Lighthouse was in assessing the situation.

I'm sure you realize by now, that it wasn't a very good debating tactic after all, um?

 

[Yorzhik]

So I take it The Barbarian has conceded the rest of the points on how public school is bad based on his unwillingness to respond to them?

I see you still haven't shown that I've said kindergarten teachers are wolves. You might as well just admit you lied about it.

What age do kids start kindergarten?

Likewise, I notice you again declined to show where I said it was wrong to judge. I know you thought you were entitled to say I did, because I hadn't made a statment about it, but that's considered dishonest by Christians, at least.

Here's what you said after you claimed you believed judging was wrong:

He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like.

So is dishonesty. We'll just have to disagree on those things.

If you really thought it was wrong to judge, you would have told me what was wrong with my judging, not simply declaring it so. After all, every post you've made to me has been loaded with insults. Also, if you'd like to call our insults "expressions of understanding", that's fine with me.

BTW, if you did attempt to show where an insult of mine was incorrect, you would see what I said does not fit under the definition of a lie. I have enough evidence to say at this point, "Why doesn't The Barbarian just admit that he throws the accusation of lying as a debate tactic because he cannot support his position?"

And, of course, you also lied when you claimed I said that Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values. By way of excuse, you said that you thought it was true, which I suppose is your justification for lying about me saying it.

So you really think that non-Christians can teach Christian values? Another way to say it is; do you really think a teacher can teach something they no nothing about?

You aren't a very honest person. And you're not very smart, or you would have simply admitted you lied, and let it go. Nothing you can do or say will make it better, except to admit it.

If you want to say I lie, you'll have to explain the difference between your insults and mine. The only difference I see is that I substantiate why I insult you, while your's rest upon nothing but that you need them for a debate tactic.

I notice the numbers apply only to evangelical Christians. Regular Christians have much better retention than that. There are many reasons why this is true. Did you know evangelicals have higher divorce rates than orthodox Christians? In fact, evangelicals have higher divorce rates than atheists.

Might be worth thinking about.

By regular Christians you mean those that believe in the Godless worldview of the public schools. I'm not surprised they don't lose their faith... their faith being as it is. And chief among the reasons that evangelicals are most affected is that evangelicals in stated beliefs disagree the most with what is taught in public school. I wouldn't doubt that evangelicals having higher divorce rates with the Settled View being so pervasive in evangelical circles, and with most children of evangelicals going to public school, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yorzhik takes one last grab at declaring victory:
So I take it The Barbarian has conceded the rest of the points on how public school is bad based on his unwillingness to respond to them?

What's one more misrepresentation for Yorzhik? Nice try.

Barbarian observes:
I see you still haven't shown that I've said kindergarten teachers are wolves. You might as well just admit you lied about it.

What age do kids start kindergarten?

Just post where I said they were wolves. Or admit you lied. Forget trying to spin out of it. Not going to happen.

Barbarian observes:
Likewise, I notice you again declined to show where I said it was wrong to judge. I know you thought you were entitled to say I did, because I hadn't made a statment about it, but that's considered dishonest by Christians, at least.

Here's what you said after you claimed you believed judging was wrong:

If you want to save yourself, just post where I said I thought it was wrong. As everyone knows by now, you lied about that.

If you really thought it was wrong to judge...

Won't do you any good now. You'll either post where I said it, or you'll just have to let me call you a liar again. Or you could just admit that you lied, and go on. Your choice.

Barbarian observes:
And, of course, you also lied when you claimed I said that Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values. By way of excuse, you said that you thought it was true, which I suppose is your justification for lying about me saying it.

So you really think...

What I think isn't at issue. If you can't show that I said it, as you claimed I did, you're a liar. Very simple.

Barbarian observes:
You aren't a very honest person. And you're not very smart, or you would have simply admitted you lied, and let it go. Nothing you can do or say will make it better, except to admit it.

If you want to say I lie,....

I merely have to point out that I didn't say what you claimed I did, and then challenge you to show that I did. If you can't, you're a liar. Simple.

Barbarian on young Christian losing their faith:
I notice the numbers apply only to evangelical Christians. Regular Christians have much better retention than that. There are many reasons why this is true. Did you know evangelicals have higher divorce rates than orthodox Christians? In fact, evangelicals have higher divorce rates than atheists.

By regular Christians you mean those that believe...

In God, instead of YE creationism. Those who accept what Genesis says.

I'm not surprised they don't lose their faith... their faith being as it is.

Of course. They accept God's word as it is, and they remain strong in it. YE creationists fall away frequently. YE creationism is a great atheist-maker.

And chief among the reasons that evangelicals are most affected is that evangelicals in stated beliefs disagree the most with what is taught in public school.

And in the Bible. They are weak in their faith, so they lose it. And their marriages fall apart more often. These are harsh judgements, but they are true.

 

[Yorzhik]

Yorzhik takes one last grab at declaring victory:

Actually, if you don't respond with anything new I won a few posts ago.

So I take it The Barbarian has conceded the rest of the points on how public school is bad based on his unwillingness to respond to them?

What's one more misrepresentation for Yorzhik? Nice try.

Actually, again, I'm asking a question. Try answering the question.

Just post where I said they were wolves.

You declared them wolves in post 608 and what grade in 612.

Likewise, I notice you again declined to show where I said it was wrong to judge.

Actually I said you said it was not wrong to judge when you finally did answer the question. But I did follow up commenting on a statement you made after you said it was not wrong to judge that indicated you didn't believe it was not wrong to judge possibly. You declined to respond, opting for a wild accusation, instead of making yourself clear. Here, I give you a chance agiain:

He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like.

[quoteThe Barbarian] So is dishonesty. We'll just have to disagree on those things.

[/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------

And, of course, you also lied when you claimed I said that Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values. By way of excuse, you said that you thought it was true, which I suppose is your justification for lying about me saying it.

So you really think that non-Christians can teach Christian values? Another way to say it is; do you really think a teacher can teach something they know nothing about?

If you can answer those questions we'll get on with your statements where you implied Christian teachers are required to teach Christian values. The problem with talking with you is that you stay intentionally vague, so statements easily may not be taken exactly how you intend. I think it is because you know your position is weak. Anyway, here's the statements:

The point is you know you are putting your kids into a battle of worldviews.

Nope. In fact one teacher was a religious education teacher at my church. Maybe it's the kind of community in which you live.

You understand what it takes to teach kids Christian values, as you admit in the above quote.

---------------------------------------------------------------

What I think isn't at issue.

Of course no one can make you admit what you think in a discussion, but it makes for a better discussion. So what do you think of non-Christians teaching Christian values, especially in an environment where teaching Christian values is against the law?

I merely have to point out that I didn't say what you claimed I did, and then challenge you to show that I did. If you can't, you're a liar. Simple.

I haven't lied at all. I keep pointing out where you said what I say you said.

In God, instead of YE creationism. Those who accept what Genesis says.

Um... Genesis says the earth was made in 6 days a few thousand years ago directly. It does not say the earth was created many millions or billions of years ago directly. So you can either take what it says directly, or you can explain why you think it shouldn't.

On to another topic related to this one - do you think it should be illegal to engage in homosexual behavior?

Of course. They accept God's word as it is, and they remain strong in it. YE creationists fall away frequently. YE creationism is a great atheist-maker.

And in the Bible. They are weak in their faith, so they lose it. And their marriages fall apart more often. These are harsh judgements, but they are true.

I'll agree with you here. However, the problem with evangelicals (fundamentalists/those that believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis) has more to do with the Settled View than their view of origins. They try to fit a relational God as the bible literally states into a non-relational framework. The result is confusion.

Liberal Christians like you don't have this problem because for you the bible is malleable enough to accommodate any worldview. That is why you don't see the glaring problem with public schools. And you're afraid to see the problems, which is why you'd prefer to throw false accusations instead of discussing the issue.

 

[PKevman]

And you're afraid to see the problems, which is why you'd prefer to throw false accusations instead of discussing the issue.

An excellent summary of the discussion with Barbarian. All he does is repeatedly accuse others of lying rather than actually attempting to discuss the issue.

Yorzhik, I have to give you a pat on the back for your patience with this guy. I hope and pray it is not in vain.

Barbarian, how about returning to the discussion and actually answering questions asked of you, even if they conflict with your worldview?

Barbarian, can you explain yourself with this statement:

In God, instead of YE creationism. Those who accept what Genesis says.

Are you saying here that young-earth creationists don't believe what the book of Genesis says? This would be a yes or no question.

 

[Ktoyou]

I cannot figure why anyone is not able to answer a direct question, so I thought I would answer it

“Are you saying here that young-earth creationists don't believe what the book of Genesis says? This would be a yes or no question. “

It seem logical to me that a young earth creationists would take the book of Genesis literally, so I would say the answer is NO!

Does that seem logical?

 

[PKevman]

I cannot figure why anyone is not able to answer a direct question, so I thought I would answer it

“Are you saying here that young-earth creationists don't believe what the book of Genesis says? This would be a yes or no question. “

It seem logical to me that a young earth creationists would take the book of Genesis literally, so I would say the answer is NO!

Does that seem logical?

Too bad Barbarian probably will NOT answer the question directly. Undoubtedly if he answers the reply will be some snide and pointless remark that lacks any real manners needed to have an adult conversation.

 

[JoyfulRook]

But he does favor homeschooling, and disparages our public schools, which as you might know, outperform the schools of most other nations. And, as you possibly know, he called me an idiot for citing evidence. Sounds like a homeschooler to me.

First of all, that's really irrelevant. He's a product of the public school system you support. So if you see any problem in his debate style, let me assure you that he didn't learn it in a homeschooled environment.

Secondly, our public school system is a disaster. There are kids graduating the 4th grade who still don't know how to read. The leading class in American colleges is remedial English. That's their native tongue. Homeschool students score much higher on standardized tests than public or private schoolers.

Hmm... If that was true, he certainly wouldn't have been homeschooled, um? Good point. If a debater responded to evidence with "you're an idiot", he'd be laughed out of the room.

Not necessarily. It's not an argument, it's just an assessment of you. An assessment that seems to be quite accurate.

I have encountered a good number of homeschoolers, and they generally respond badly when they see how our public schools rate compared to those of other nations. Not all of them are foolish enough to just scream insults, but they generally don't want to see the numbers.

Your experience seems to be very limited then.

I'm sure you realize by now, that it wasn't a very good debating tactic after all, um?

As I said above, it's not an argument, it's just an assessment of you.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
But he does favor homeschooling, and disparages our public schools, which as you might know, outperform the schools of most other nations. And, as you possibly know, he called me an idiot for citing evidence. Sounds like a homeschooler to me.

First of all, that's really irrelevant.

Nope. Observe that a partisan of homeschooling holds that citiing evidence is reason to call one an idiot. It's perfectly normal for such people to hold such views.

He's a product of the public school system you support.

Obviously, it's not perfect. No matter how good the school, you still have to do some work to learn.

So if you see any problem in his debate style, let me assure you that he didn't learn it in a homeschooled environment.

Obviously, he's inclined to homeschooling, and has adapted homeschooling values. Hence his distaste for evidence as a way of learning about things.

Secondly, our public school system is a disaster.

Fortunately, there's a way to test that idea. You see, 8th graders in the United States and about forty other nations have representative schools take a test of math and science. The US is slightly above the average (numerical mean) in both. Some states, in the upper midwest, rank among the highest in the world. Others, mostly in the Southeast, don't do so well. But above average is hardly a "disaster"; you've been taken for a ride on that one.

There are kids graduating the 4th grade who still don't know how to read. The leading class in American colleges is remedial English. That's their native tongue. Homeschool students score much higher on standardized tests than public or private schoolers.

Funny, then, that homeschoolers are so poorly represented among the top scholars in America. No Nobel-winning scholars, no great architects or biologists. Although one-on-one instruction can be vastly superior to classroom instruction, homeschool teachers seem to have not been that successful.

Barbarian chuckles:
Hmm... If that was true, he certainly wouldn't have been homeschooled, um? Good point. If a debater responded to evidence with "you're an idiot", he'd be laughed out of the room.

Not necessarily. It's not an argument, it's just an assessment of you.

Yes. He regards those who cite evidence as "idots." It's why I knew he was a homeschool partisan.

An assessment that seems to be quite accurate.

Well, we'll just have to disagree on the role of evidence in debate. It's a homeschooler thing, I guess.

Barbarian observes:
I have encountered a good number of homeschoolers, and they generally respond badly when they see how our public schools rate compared to those of other nations. Not all of them are foolish enough to just scream insults, but they generally don't want to see the numbers.

Your experience seems to be very limited then.

Notice how you and Lighthouse fit that profile nicely. Oops, that's evidence, isn't it?

Barbarian chuckles:
I'm sure you realize by now, that it wasn't a very good debating tactic after all, um?

As I said above, it's not an argument, it's just an assessment of you.

It was in fact, an inference, based on my use of evidence in an argument. This he found to be idiotic. A common behavior among homeschoolers, as I said.

 

[Ktoyou]

:chew: arguing forever in circles :chew: