Well, we're getting somewhere. Notice we just disabused one of the notion that American schools are a disaster.
That's worth some time, um?
That's worth some time, um?
Christian Kids in the Public School
- Thread starter DXPose
- Start date
JoyfulRook
New member
Except he was public schooled. Look, this is really a worthless argument on your side. You should drop it. If there is any problem with Lighthouse's debate skills, it was no fault of homeschooling, it was the fault of the public school environment you support. You're not helping your case here, bud.
He wasn't calling you an idiot because you cited evidence. He called you an idiot because you're an idiot.
You're making broad assumptions that have no basis in fact, and are without value for argumentation. Did you learn that in public school?
Where is your reference?
You want evidence? Here's a little evidence for you.
Studies show that:
- Almost 25% of home school students were enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools.
- Home school student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade (typically in the 70th to 80th percentile) were well above those of public and Catholic/Private school students.
- On average, home school students in grades 1 to 4 performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests.
- Students who had been home schooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs.
- There were no meaningful differences in achievement by gender, whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether a parent held a state issued teaching certificate.
- There were significant achievement differences among home school students when classified by amount of money spent on education, family income, parent education, and television viewing.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/Fig1.jpg
Since Homeschool families are together so often, they have, for the most part, closer relationships to one another. Many times Public Schooled Families are more dysfunctional than Homeschool families. Many Public Schools undermine Judeo-Christian and family values. Look at this Study by “Family Planning Perspectives” Volume 32, No. 5, September/October 2000:
“During their adolescence, most will become at risk of pregnancy or of infection with HIV or other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).5 National studies have found that substantial proportions of young adolescents have used alcohol, tobacco and marijuana.6 The 1999 Youth Risk Behavior Survey (YRBS) found that among American high school students in grade nine, 6% of girls and 18% of boys have had intercourse before age 13 (approximately before grade seven), and that 33% and 45%, respectively, have ever had intercourse.7 Among female students of all races in grade nine, 8% have had four or more sex partners in their lifetime, as have 16% of male students. The YRBS data also indicate that 13% of female high school students (grades 9-12) have been forced to have sexual intercourse, as have 5% of males.”
The public school system is obviously in moral and educational decay.
You couldn't be farther from the truth. If you ever watch the national geography or spelling bees, there is an overly high percentage of homeschool students competing. Many of the winners are homeschooled. If you're still not convinced, here's a quick list of some influential homeschoolers.
Generals
Stonewall Jackson
Robert E. Lee
Douglas MacArthur
George Patton
Inventors
Alexander Graham Bell
Thomas Edison
Cyrus McCormick
Orville Wright
Wilbur Wright
Artists
Claude Monet
Leonardo da Vinci
Jamie Wyeth
Andrew Wyeth
John Singleton Copley
Presidents
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
James Madison
William Henry Harrison
John Tyler
Abraham Lincoln
Theodore Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Franklin DelanoRoosevelt
Scientists
George Washington Carver
Pierre Curie
Albert Einstein
Booker T. Washington
Blaise Pascal
Statesmen
Konrad Adenauer
Winston Churchill
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick Henry
William Penn
Henry Clay
United States Supreme Court Judges
John Jay
John Marshall
John Rutledge
Composers
IrvingBerlin
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Anton Bruckner
Felix Mendelssohn
Francis Poulenc
Writers
Hans Christian Anderson
Charles Dickens
Brett Harte
Mark Twain
Sean O'Casey
Phillis Wheatley
Mercy Warren
Pearl S. Buck
Agatha Christie
C.S. Lewis
George Bernard Shaw
Religious leaders
Joan of Arc
Brigham Young
John Wesley
Charles Wesley
Jonathan Edwards
John Owen
William Cary
Dwight L. Moody
John Newton
Others
Charles Chaplin - Actor
George Rogers Clark - Explorer
Andrew Carnegie - Industrialist
Noel Coward - Playwright
John Burroughs - Naturalist
Bill Ridell - Newspaperman
Will Rogers - Humorist
Albert Schweitzer - Physician
Tamara McKinney - World Cup Skier
Jim Ryan - World Runner
Ansel Adams - Photographer
Charles Louis Montesquieu - philosopher
John Stuart Mill - Economist
John Paul Jones - father of the American Navy
Florence Nightingale - nurse
Clara Barton - started the Red Cross
Abigail Adams - wife of John Adams
Martha Washington - wife of George W.
John Witherspoon - President of Princeton U.
Benjamin Franklin - inventor and statesman
William S. Johnson - President of Columbia C.
George Clymer - U.S. Representative
Charles Pickney III - Governor of S. Carolina
John Francis Mercer - U.S. Representative
George Wythe - Justice of Virginia High Court
William Blount - U.S. Senator
Richard D. Spaight - Governor of N. Carolina
William Livingston - Governor of New Jersey
Richard Basset - Governor of Delaware
William Houston - lawyer
William Few - U.S. Senator
George Mason
No, I hold evidence very highly in debate. But you've got to remember that just because you quote evidence doesn't automatically make you right. Again, he didn't call you an idiot because you cited evidence, he called you an idiot because you really are a blockhead. And finally, you shouldn't accuse him of ad hom attacks, and then slip snide, underhanded insults into your text like "it's a homeschooler thing, I guess."
No, that's an anecdotal example, or better yet, your opinion. Silly public schooler. He thinks just because he quoted a piece of evidence and because his opinion says so, makes him right. :mock: The Barbarian
JoyfulRook
New member
A great man once said, "You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
:idunno: Oh well. You gotta do your best.
Barbarian observes:
But he does favor homeschooling, and disparages our public schools, which as you might know, outperform the schools of most other nations. And, as you possibly know, he called me an idiot for citing evidence. Sounds like a homeschooler to me.
But it apparently didn't take. He's allergic to facts, he endorses homeschooling, so, one has to conclude that he's sipped the kool-aid.
If it's so worthless, why are you so frantic to find a way around it?
More likely, he's one of the few who simply didn't bother to learn. He certainly acts like a homeschooler. Notice that he called me an idiot for citing evidence.
If so, what's got you in such a dither?
Barbarian observes:
Nope. Observe that a partisan of homeschooling holds that citiing evidence is reason to call one an idiot. It's perfectly normal for such people to hold such views.
I cited evidence and he said I was an idiot. Homeschooler behavior, um?
See, you don't like evidence, either. It's part of the culture, I suppose.
Barbarian observes:
Obviously, he's inclined to homeschooling, and has adapted homeschooling values. Hence his distaste for evidence as a way of learning about things.
Nope. Inference from evidence. I cited evidence, he responded by calling me an idiot. Oops. I did the E word, again. Riles you guys, um?
Barbarian on the myth that US schools are a disaster:
Fortunately, there's a way to test that idea. You see, 8th graders in the United States and about forty other nations have representative schools take a test of math and science. The US is slightly above the average (numerical mean) in both. Some states, in the upper midwest, rank among the highest in the world. Others, mostly in the Southeast, don't do so well. But above average is hardly a "disaster"; you've been taken for a ride on that one.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/results03_eighth03.asp
And most 8th graders in most other countries take algebra about a year earlier than most American students - but they still score behind them on math. So much for the "year ahead" measure.
(claims of wonderful results by a homeschooling advocate)
You forgot to show your evidence.
That seems extremely doubtful. The divorce rate for evangelical Christians (the great bulk of homeschoolers) is much higher than for orthodox Christians and even higher than it is for atheists. It would seem that a family broken by divorce is by definition, dysfunctional.
Are evangelicals more likely to love their neighbor more than others? There is little evidence of it. Most people's closest neighbor is their spouse. Catholics do a much better job loving their spouse for life and have a much lower divorce rate than evangelicals, for example.
A poll by George Barna last fall reported that 37 percent of unbelievers had divorced, which is not a surprise. So have 39 percent of all Protestants (including 42 percent of all Pentecostals). A remarkable 35 percent of all born-again Evangelicals have divorced, which is identical to the 35% of divorced adults who are not born again. What's more, 23 percent of Evangelicals have had TWO divorces.
http://www.ethicsandreligion.com/redesignedcolumns/C1241.htm
Barna, BTW, is himself an evangelical, and is stunned by the results he got.
According to Barna's research, something is in decay, but apparently not the public school system. :jawdrop:
Barbarian observes:
Funny, then, that homeschoolers are so poorly represented among the top scholars in America. No Nobel-winning scholars, no great architects or biologists. Although one-on-one instruction can be vastly superior to classroom instruction, homeschool teachers seem to have not been that successful.
How about math and engineering competitions? No Nobels for spelling, I'm afraid.
Hmmm... no one from the last 50 years in your first group. But there are numerous Nobel scholars from the public school system in that time. Let's see if we can find any even close...
Einstein went to public and private schools.
Pearl Buck lived in China with a missionary father. She had no choice. Fortunately, both parents were well-educated.
Tamara McKinney, Jim Ryan were find athletes, but what have they done of academic distinction?
(list of obscure politicians)
That's it? In the last 50 years? No wonder people think homeschooling is a failure.
Barbarian observes:
Yes. He regards those who cite evidence as "idots." It's why I knew he was a homeschool partisan. Well, we'll just have to disagree on the role of evidence in debate. It's a homeschooler thing, I guess.
So far, you've been remarkably resistant to it.
It's just evidence that I'm right.
When I started talking about evidence, that's when he did it. It's how I knew he was a homeschooling advocate. It's their way.
Barbarian on homeschooler aversion to evidence:
Notice how you and Lighthouse fit that profile nicely. Oops, that's evidence, isn't it?
If you see a small furry animal with very long ears, it's an "acecdotal example" of a rabbit.
Anyway, you now know that public schools in America are better than in the rest of the world, that they (along with some private schools) seem to have produced all the top scholars in America in the past 50 years, and that there seems to be a great deal of family disfunction with the demographic group most likely to homeschool.
Of course, you could do the homeschool thing in responding to the evidence.
Call me an idiot. :yawn:
But he does favor homeschooling, and disparages our public schools, which as you might know, outperform the schools of most other nations. And, as you possibly know, he called me an idiot for citing evidence. Sounds like a homeschooler to me.
But it apparently didn't take. He's allergic to facts, he endorses homeschooling, so, one has to conclude that he's sipped the kool-aid.
If it's so worthless, why are you so frantic to find a way around it?
More likely, he's one of the few who simply didn't bother to learn. He certainly acts like a homeschooler. Notice that he called me an idiot for citing evidence.
If so, what's got you in such a dither?
Barbarian observes:
Nope. Observe that a partisan of homeschooling holds that citiing evidence is reason to call one an idiot. It's perfectly normal for such people to hold such views.
I cited evidence and he said I was an idiot. Homeschooler behavior, um?
See, you don't like evidence, either. It's part of the culture, I suppose.
Barbarian observes:
Obviously, he's inclined to homeschooling, and has adapted homeschooling values. Hence his distaste for evidence as a way of learning about things.
Nope. Inference from evidence. I cited evidence, he responded by calling me an idiot. Oops. I did the E word, again. Riles you guys, um?
Barbarian on the myth that US schools are a disaster:
Fortunately, there's a way to test that idea. You see, 8th graders in the United States and about forty other nations have representative schools take a test of math and science. The US is slightly above the average (numerical mean) in both. Some states, in the upper midwest, rank among the highest in the world. Others, mostly in the Southeast, don't do so well. But above average is hardly a "disaster"; you've been taken for a ride on that one.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/results03_eighth03.asp
And most 8th graders in most other countries take algebra about a year earlier than most American students - but they still score behind them on math. So much for the "year ahead" measure.
(claims of wonderful results by a homeschooling advocate)
You forgot to show your evidence.
That seems extremely doubtful. The divorce rate for evangelical Christians (the great bulk of homeschoolers) is much higher than for orthodox Christians and even higher than it is for atheists. It would seem that a family broken by divorce is by definition, dysfunctional.
Are evangelicals more likely to love their neighbor more than others? There is little evidence of it. Most people's closest neighbor is their spouse. Catholics do a much better job loving their spouse for life and have a much lower divorce rate than evangelicals, for example.
A poll by George Barna last fall reported that 37 percent of unbelievers had divorced, which is not a surprise. So have 39 percent of all Protestants (including 42 percent of all Pentecostals). A remarkable 35 percent of all born-again Evangelicals have divorced, which is identical to the 35% of divorced adults who are not born again. What's more, 23 percent of Evangelicals have had TWO divorces.
http://www.ethicsandreligion.com/redesignedcolumns/C1241.htm
Barna, BTW, is himself an evangelical, and is stunned by the results he got.
According to Barna's research, something is in decay, but apparently not the public school system. :jawdrop:
Barbarian observes:
Funny, then, that homeschoolers are so poorly represented among the top scholars in America. No Nobel-winning scholars, no great architects or biologists. Although one-on-one instruction can be vastly superior to classroom instruction, homeschool teachers seem to have not been that successful.
How about math and engineering competitions? No Nobels for spelling, I'm afraid.
Hmmm... no one from the last 50 years in your first group. But there are numerous Nobel scholars from the public school system in that time. Let's see if we can find any even close...
Einstein went to public and private schools.
Pearl Buck lived in China with a missionary father. She had no choice. Fortunately, both parents were well-educated.
Tamara McKinney, Jim Ryan were find athletes, but what have they done of academic distinction?
(list of obscure politicians)
That's it? In the last 50 years? No wonder people think homeschooling is a failure.
Barbarian observes:
Yes. He regards those who cite evidence as "idots." It's why I knew he was a homeschool partisan. Well, we'll just have to disagree on the role of evidence in debate. It's a homeschooler thing, I guess.
So far, you've been remarkably resistant to it.
It's just evidence that I'm right.
When I started talking about evidence, that's when he did it. It's how I knew he was a homeschooling advocate. It's their way.
Barbarian on homeschooler aversion to evidence:
Notice how you and Lighthouse fit that profile nicely. Oops, that's evidence, isn't it?
If you see a small furry animal with very long ears, it's an "acecdotal example" of a rabbit.
Anyway, you now know that public schools in America are better than in the rest of the world, that they (along with some private schools) seem to have produced all the top scholars in America in the past 50 years, and that there seems to be a great deal of family disfunction with the demographic group most likely to homeschool.
Of course, you could do the homeschool thing in responding to the evidence.
Call me an idiot. :yawn:
I left the thread, and he's still trying to use me for an argument.
I went to public school, as I believe we have established, and my socialization skills are mostly non-existent. Also, my skill for debate, is obviously not as good as DH's, and he is home schooled. I can be very persuasive, though, if people are willing to listen.
I went to public school, as I believe we have established, and my socialization skills are mostly non-existent. Also, my skill for debate, is obviously not as good as DH's, and he is home schooled. I can be very persuasive, though, if people are willing to listen.
Reasoning skills, too. It's common in homeschool enthusiasts.
As you see, he had a little collision with reality, recently. Hopefully, he'll be up and around as soon as he manages to come to terms with Things As They Are.
DH had a collision with reality, recently? What are you talking about?
BTW, that's a nice use of a figure; "collision with reality".
Barbarian chuckles:
As you see, he had a little collision with reality, recently. Hopefully, he'll be up and around as soon as he manages to come to terms with Things As They Are.
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Stuff like that. The things you guys don't like. Evidence.
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance. In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
As you see, he had a little collision with reality, recently. Hopefully, he'll be up and around as soon as he manages to come to terms with Things As They Are.
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Stuff like that. The things you guys don't like. Evidence.
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance. In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
I'm sorry, barbarian. But, I really don't think that our schools do that much better than the other nations' schools, despite what your link says. My reason? I know for a fact that a lot of schools teach for that test, as opposed to teaching for everyday life. In fact, almost every teacher I know except one has complained how they're told to make sure that their students are academically ready for that test. And, if there's time left at the end of the year, they can teach other things.
I know, you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused by knowing the facts.
I'm trying hard to figure out how being proficient at math isn't good for everyday life. You're making no sense here. The tests are standardized for math skills and science understanding. These are critical skills needed for good jobs in real life.
If the test accurately measures their understanding, then teaching them the skills and knowledge required is no different than teaching for the test. The point remains; US public schools are better than average compared to the public schools of other nations.
Well, the critical skills needed for life are the ones that should come first. If your state isn't doing that, then you need to fix it. Most states teach math and science as needed to get and hold a decent job.
LOL! Look who's talking! My daughter has been homeschooled for ten years and scored in the 97th percentile, two grades above what she's supposed to be! In fact, most homeschooled students I know test close to what my daughter does. But, that doesn't matter to you. Does it?
When all you're teaching is math and science, something is missing. There's more to life than math and science. What about reading, writing, and history?
I remember when I was in high school. We had a foreign exchange student come over from Japan, named Mariko. Mariko had to take college courses because our high school was so far behind hers in science. And, that was in the technologically advanced state of California! I'll admit it was quite a few years ago, though.
Math and science aren't the "end all/be all" of life and education, though. I know a lot of people who hold a decent job as a garbage collector. Where's the math and science there?
Barbarian, on reluctance to accept facts:
I know, you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused by knowing the facts.
And my last kiddo exceeded 98 on everything in the state tests. And she's always been in public schools. Her sister graduated from college with a 3.93 average, in honors college. But the key is how the public schools do with most kids. And, as you just learned, they do a lot better than most other nations.
Sorry, anecdotes aren't a good defense against the facts.
Barbarian on the argument that being good in math isn't important:
I'm trying hard to figure out how being proficient at math isn't good for everyday life. You're making no sense here. The tests are standardized for math skills and science understanding. These are critical skills needed for good jobs in real life.
They aren't, of course, but in international comparisons, you can't do language arts or history, because they don't match up in a valid way. I'd be open to your evidence that they don't do as well in these as they do in the things we can compare.
Turns out that we exceed most other nations in literacy.
Barbarian observes:
If the test accurately measures their understanding, then teaching them the skills and knowledge required is no different than teaching for the test. The point remains; US public schools are better than average compared to the public schools of other nations.
California is behind many other states. A few in the upper Midwest are at the level of Japan. No homeschooling in Japan, of course. All public and private schools.
Barbarian observes:
Well, the critical skills needed for life are the ones that should come first. If your state isn't doing that, then you need to fix it. Most states teach math and science as needed to get and hold a decent job.
Nothing dishonorable about that. But he still needs to be able to balance his checkbook, and understand hazardous materials.
See above.
I know, you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused by knowing the facts.
And my last kiddo exceeded 98 on everything in the state tests. And she's always been in public schools. Her sister graduated from college with a 3.93 average, in honors college. But the key is how the public schools do with most kids. And, as you just learned, they do a lot better than most other nations.
Sorry, anecdotes aren't a good defense against the facts.
Barbarian on the argument that being good in math isn't important:
I'm trying hard to figure out how being proficient at math isn't good for everyday life. You're making no sense here. The tests are standardized for math skills and science understanding. These are critical skills needed for good jobs in real life.
They aren't, of course, but in international comparisons, you can't do language arts or history, because they don't match up in a valid way. I'd be open to your evidence that they don't do as well in these as they do in the things we can compare.
Turns out that we exceed most other nations in literacy.
Barbarian observes:
If the test accurately measures their understanding, then teaching them the skills and knowledge required is no different than teaching for the test. The point remains; US public schools are better than average compared to the public schools of other nations.
California is behind many other states. A few in the upper Midwest are at the level of Japan. No homeschooling in Japan, of course. All public and private schools.
Barbarian observes:
Well, the critical skills needed for life are the ones that should come first. If your state isn't doing that, then you need to fix it. Most states teach math and science as needed to get and hold a decent job.
Nothing dishonorable about that. But he still needs to be able to balance his checkbook, and understand hazardous materials.
See above.
How many years ahead of her grade did she test? By this, I mean did she take the tests for her own grade or a grade higher or a grade lower? My daughter was assigned to take the test for two grades above her own grade until last year (she was in eleventh grade and they don't have tests for above twelfth grade).
:chuckle: Sorry. I know for a fact what these kids are doing. You can look up the stats on homeschoolers if you wish. I'm too tired to do so right now.
I don't know why you cannot do language arts worldwide. Or history, either. There is such a thing as world history, you know.
How long will that be true with the kids we allow to graduate high school without learning to read? :think:
Japan does allow homeschooling. Check this out. From that page:
So, it seems that you may have been wrong about homeschooling in Japan. Although there aren't many homeschoolers there, homeschooling is allowed.
Actually, he doesn't have to know how to balance his checkbook with the new computer programs out there. And, if he's just picking up the household garbage, why does he need to know about hazardous materials?
You see, barbarian, you complain about homeschoolers not wanting to see the facts. Advocates of public schools are the same way. You told me that anecdotes are not evidence. But, if you look up the data on homeschoolers in the US, you will find that the evidence lines up with what I've witnessed.
And, that page on homeschooling in Japan is one of my bookmarks. It's a pretty interesting site.
Barbarian, on reluctance to accept facts:
I know, you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused by knowing the facts.
And my last kiddo exceeded 98 on everything in the state tests. And she's always been in public schools. Her sister graduated from college with a 3.93 average, in honors college. But the key is how the public schools do with most kids. And, as you just learned, they do a lot better than most other nations.
The youngest was doing algebra in fifth grade, so that would be three. But she is exceptional. She's a public school student, but then, so was Lighthouse. But the highs and lows aren't the point. The point is, when we measure American public schools against others in the world, they are above average. In many states, they are very much above average. And regrettably, in some states, they are very bad.
Barbarian observes:
Sorry, anecdotes aren't a good defense against the facts.
I have. I have also seen how they perform when they return to the public school system. Some do well. Most don't. There's a reason you won't find any homeschooled Nobel winners these days.
Barbarian on the argument that being good in math isn't important:
I'm trying hard to figure out how being proficient at math isn't good for everyday life. You're making no sense here. The tests are standardized for math skills and science understanding. These are critical skills needed for good jobs in real life.
Barbarian on the argument that language arts and history are ignored in public school:
They aren't, of course, but in international comparisons, you can't do language arts or history, because they don't match up in a valid way. I'd be open to your evidence that they don't do as well in these as they do in the things we can compare.
It's impossible to accurately compare two different tests, and different nations teach different history and languages. So far, no one's found a way to compare these accurately.
Barbarian observes:
Turns out that we exceed most other nations in literacy.
Perpetually. A few kids don't learn to read in school, although I don't know of any state these days that lets them graduate from high school like that. Every nation has some kids who don't learn to read, but the exceptions are not what set the literacy rate. It's the percent who can read.
Barbarian observes:
If the test accurately measures their understanding, then teaching them the skills and knowledge required is no different than teaching for the test. The point remains; US public schools are better than average compared to the public schools of other nations.
California is behind many other states. A few in the upper Midwest are at the level of Japan. No homeschooling in Japan, of course. All public and private schools.
There are virtually no homeschooled kids in Japan. The reason is pretty simple; there are one-shot exams at the end of the high school, which determine what your future will be. Few parents are competent to teach everything that could be on the test. You pass it or you don't. Don't pass it, and you are a factory worker.
See above.
Barbarian observes:
Well, the critical skills needed for life are the ones that should come first. If your state isn't doing that, then you need to fix it. Most states teach math and science as needed to get and hold a decent job.
On the argument that homeschoolers could be garbage collectors:
Nothing dishonorable about that. But he still needs to be able to balance his checkbook, and understand hazardous materials.
Last time I checked, they didn't pay garbage collectors enough to buy computers.
Because sometimes, people and businesses try to put such things in trash pickup. And he needs to know about it. If you'll check with your collector, he'll tell you how he knows. There's not much opportunity for ignoramuses these days.
And you can see that it's true. Look at the resistance we had in accepting the truth about American schools. They seem to be allergic to evidence.
There is no comprehensive study of achievement in homeschoolers at this time, but one is underway. Interestingly, there is a higher incidence of parents with at least a bachelor's degree among homeschoolers. We do know that the educational attainment of parents is one of the best predictors of achievent in children.
Bielick, S., Chandler, K., and Broughman, S.P. (2001). Homeschooling in the United States: 1999 (NCES 2001–033). Washington, DC: National Center for Education Statistics.
Unfortunately, I can't find any data on economic position of families for homeschoolers, and this is also an important predictor of success for children. If we want to actually measure the results to see if homeschooling works, we'd have to be sure that we matched the demographics to be sure that other factors weren't involved.
So far, no one's done that. But the Department of Education is researching it. Apparently, the reporting on homeschoolers is skewed toward those families that interact with other homeschooling families; those who homeschool in isolation are often missed, and also are likely to skew the results. It should be interesting. It's just anecdote, but I see a lot of formerly homeschooled kids, and some are good, and some are a grade or two behind. None were exceptional.
It's possible that I'm just seeing the ones for which homeschooling was a failure, of course. For now, we just can't say for sure how it is. The positive side is that one-on-one or very small classes are much better than classes of a dozen or more. The downside is that few of us are competent to teach everything well. And with homeschooling packets available, it's easy to fool one's self about how well a child is doing.
I know, you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused by knowing the facts.
And my last kiddo exceeded 98 on everything in the state tests. And she's always been in public schools. Her sister graduated from college with a 3.93 average, in honors college. But the key is how the public schools do with most kids. And, as you just learned, they do a lot better than most other nations.
The youngest was doing algebra in fifth grade, so that would be three. But she is exceptional. She's a public school student, but then, so was Lighthouse. But the highs and lows aren't the point. The point is, when we measure American public schools against others in the world, they are above average. In many states, they are very much above average. And regrettably, in some states, they are very bad.
Barbarian observes:
Sorry, anecdotes aren't a good defense against the facts.
I have. I have also seen how they perform when they return to the public school system. Some do well. Most don't. There's a reason you won't find any homeschooled Nobel winners these days.
Barbarian on the argument that being good in math isn't important:
I'm trying hard to figure out how being proficient at math isn't good for everyday life. You're making no sense here. The tests are standardized for math skills and science understanding. These are critical skills needed for good jobs in real life.
Barbarian on the argument that language arts and history are ignored in public school:
They aren't, of course, but in international comparisons, you can't do language arts or history, because they don't match up in a valid way. I'd be open to your evidence that they don't do as well in these as they do in the things we can compare.
It's impossible to accurately compare two different tests, and different nations teach different history and languages. So far, no one's found a way to compare these accurately.
Barbarian observes:
Turns out that we exceed most other nations in literacy.
Perpetually. A few kids don't learn to read in school, although I don't know of any state these days that lets them graduate from high school like that. Every nation has some kids who don't learn to read, but the exceptions are not what set the literacy rate. It's the percent who can read.
Barbarian observes:
If the test accurately measures their understanding, then teaching them the skills and knowledge required is no different than teaching for the test. The point remains; US public schools are better than average compared to the public schools of other nations.
California is behind many other states. A few in the upper Midwest are at the level of Japan. No homeschooling in Japan, of course. All public and private schools.
There are virtually no homeschooled kids in Japan. The reason is pretty simple; there are one-shot exams at the end of the high school, which determine what your future will be. Few parents are competent to teach everything that could be on the test. You pass it or you don't. Don't pass it, and you are a factory worker.
See above.
Barbarian observes:
Well, the critical skills needed for life are the ones that should come first. If your state isn't doing that, then you need to fix it. Most states teach math and science as needed to get and hold a decent job.
On the argument that homeschoolers could be garbage collectors:
Nothing dishonorable about that. But he still needs to be able to balance his checkbook, and understand hazardous materials.
Last time I checked, they didn't pay garbage collectors enough to buy computers.
Because sometimes, people and businesses try to put such things in trash pickup. And he needs to know about it. If you'll check with your collector, he'll tell you how he knows. There's not much opportunity for ignoramuses these days.
And you can see that it's true. Look at the resistance we had in accepting the truth about American schools. They seem to be allergic to evidence.
There is no comprehensive study of achievement in homeschoolers at this time, but one is underway. Interestingly, there is a higher incidence of parents with at least a bachelor's degree among homeschoolers. We do know that the educational attainment of parents is one of the best predictors of achievent in children.
Bielick, S., Chandler, K., and Broughman, S.P. (2001). Homeschooling in the United States: 1999 (NCES 2001–033). Washington, DC: National Center for Education Statistics.
Unfortunately, I can't find any data on economic position of families for homeschoolers, and this is also an important predictor of success for children. If we want to actually measure the results to see if homeschooling works, we'd have to be sure that we matched the demographics to be sure that other factors weren't involved.
So far, no one's done that. But the Department of Education is researching it. Apparently, the reporting on homeschoolers is skewed toward those families that interact with other homeschooling families; those who homeschool in isolation are often missed, and also are likely to skew the results. It should be interesting. It's just anecdote, but I see a lot of formerly homeschooled kids, and some are good, and some are a grade or two behind. None were exceptional.
It's possible that I'm just seeing the ones for which homeschooling was a failure, of course. For now, we just can't say for sure how it is. The positive side is that one-on-one or very small classes are much better than classes of a dozen or more. The downside is that few of us are competent to teach everything well. And with homeschooling packets available, it's easy to fool one's self about how well a child is doing.
JoyfulRook
New member
You're just making personal attacks on Lighthouse that are really irrelevant to our discussion. He didn't call you an idiot because you presented evidence. He called you an idiot because you are an idiot. Your publik skcool style personal attacks are worthless, and therefore are not worthy of any further response.
Look, I compete in Team Policy debate. It's all based around evidence. But the first thing you learn in policy debate is that your evidence isn't always right. There is always conflicting evidence that says the opposite of what your evidence says. However, that doesn't mean that evidence is worthless. Evidence is highly valuable and necessary to win an argument in policy debate. So far you've said "I quoted a statistic! That means I win!" But you've got to remember that just because you quoted a statistic, doesn't make you right. You don't always have all the evidence, and your evidence isn't always right. To sucessfully argue a point you should have a mixture of logical argumentation, real-world examples from history, and empirical evidence.
So your evidence that says "Public Schools are doing fine" is comparing the US 8th graders to 8th graders in other countries.
Here's my responses:
- Your evidence states that the US is slightly above average (out of 45 countries) in math and science. These are both low placings for the greatest country in the world. Let's look at the countries that beat us: "Eighth-graders in the five Asian countries that outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in mathematics in 2003-Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong SAR, Japan, Korea, and Singapore-also outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in science in 2003, with eighth-graders in Estonia and Hungary performing better than U.S. students in mathematics and science as well." :rotfl: Estonia is performing better than the US in math and science. Your evidence should say that "Public Schools are mediocre."
- The results are skewed. Ebenz already pointed out that schools teach for that test, as opposed to teaching for everyday life. This discounts the credibility and accuracy of your study.
- Your evidence cannot be applied to say that public schoolers outperform homeschooled students. I want you to provide evidence on this point. According to Mimi Rothschild of the Grace Academy, "A homeschooler’s education isn’t limited by one dimensional curriculums like those offered by public schools. Homeschool students learn in unique and education focused environments which are why homeschoolers, on average, test 30-37% higher than public school students in all subjects! A homeschooler’s mind is challenged academically on a daily basis because the curriculum is custom made to fit their strengths and weaknesses." cite
- Homeschool Students are better on SATs, and are more likely to be accepted to top universities. "Not only do home schoolers win state and national academic competitions, but they also score 67 points above average on SAT college entrance exams. In spite of—or perhaps because of—their specially tailored education, home schoolers have proven competitive right through higher education. For example, in the fall of 1999, Stanford University accepted 27 percent of home schooled applicants, nearly double the university’s overall acceptance rate. With an estimated 1.7 million children currently home schooled in the United States, and that number growing yearly, it seems that many parents are finding home schooling to be the best way for them to be involved in their children’s education. And judging from the headlines, they're doing a great job." cite
Your evidence is irrelevant. A large percentage of Americans consider themselves "Evangelical." Unless you can directly link your study to homeschooling families then your argument has no bearing on this discussion.
What? Nationally accredited Spelling and Geography bees (Scripps-Howard, Scholastic) isn't good enough for you?
"On June 1, 2000, 12-year-old home schooler George Abraham Thampy won the 73rd annual Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee. In 1998, George represented Missouri in the National Spelling Bee and tied for fourth place; he tied for third place in the 1999 bee. This year, his perseverance paid off—literally—as he received, among other honors, a $10,000 cash prize for accurately spelling through 15 rounds during the contest. A week before his spelling victory, George came in second at National Geographic’s 2000 National Geography Bee, winning a $15,000 scholarship.
Ever since Rebecca Sealfon, of Brooklyn, NY, became the first home schooled student to win the spelling bee in 1997, home school spellers have swept a myriad of regional, state, and national spelling bees. This year’s national champion George Thampy was not the only home schooled speller in the spotlight: second and third place finishers Sean Conley of Newark, CA, and Alison Miller of Albany, NY, are also educated at home. Interested in mathematics and computers, 12-year-old Sean belongs to local chapters of Math Olympiad and Mathcounts and has completed college-level computer programming classes. He also studies Spanish and plays the piano. Alison has many interests, too, including ancient Greek, poetry, ice skating, and drama. She recently ranked first in the New York State Mathcounts competition.
“Home school students tend to be disproportionately represented in national contests where academic skills are being tested,” said Home School Legal Defense Association president Mike Farris, “[because] home school parents emphasize traditional learning rather than feel-good, self-esteem methods.” Home schoolers participated in record numbers at this year’s National Spelling Bee, accounting for nearly 11 percent of the bee’s contestants.
In 1999, David Beihl, a 13-year-old from Saluda, SC, became the first home-schooled student to win the National Geography Bee, after which he also competed in the 1999 National Spelling Bee. For his victory in the geography bee, he received a $25,000 scholarship and an all-expense-paid trip to Australia.
Home school achievements, however, are not limited to spelling and geography bees. Marian Braaksma was recently elected “governor” at Arizona’s Annual YMCA Youth Model Legislature, becoming the first home schooled student figurehead for Arizona’s Youth and Government Program. Besides presiding over the YMCA Model Legislature, Marian’s duties as “governor” include attending the five-day National Youth Governors Conference in Washington, DC, and the Conference on National Affairs, an event attended by prominent Youth and Government delegates from across the country.
Also this year, five home schooled students from Richardson, TX, were recognized as winners at both the state and national levels of the NASA Seeds II Science Fair. Under the supervision of home school mom and teacher, Stacy Smith, these students wrote, directed and starred in a five-minute production designed to fit this year’s topic of space research in the classroom as an educational embarkment of the International Space Station. Each of the winners was congratulated with a $100 savings bond, and their teacher received an all-expense-paid trip to a science conference.
Seventeen year-old Garrett Young won the Glenn T. Seaborg Nobel Prize Visit Award in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair in Detriot, May 12, 2000. Garrett, a home schooled student from Branchburg, NJ, won for his physics project titled “Isolating Plasma Species Initiating Internal Electrostatic Fields for Plasma Heating.” In his project, he found a way to more efficiently increase the temperature of plasma, a process which may make energy from fusion more accessible. Garrett’s award includes an expense-paid trip to the Nobel Prize Ceremony in Sweden in December 2000.1
This spring, home schooler William Schleifer of Jackson County, GA, won the National Federation of Music Club Composers Contest for the third time in a row. William, 17, and his brother Robert, 14, have studied piano under Keith Jefcoat, director of preparatory music at Brenau University and both boys have competed in the Georgia Music Teachers Association’s Spring Auditions at the University of Georgia. In addition to his musical pursuits, Robert is a serious student of geography and has represented his state in the last two National Geography Bees.
Another home school student making her mark in the music world is 11-year-old Brighton Goode of Madison, Mississippi. Though she has not had her own school choir or orchestra to perform in, Brighton has excelled as a singer and pianist. In March, she represented the Children’s Choir of Mississippi as she performed songs in French, German, Japanese, and English with the American Choral Directors Association’s Southern Division ACDA Children’s Honor Choir in Orlando, Florida. A recipient of many state and national awards for singing, dancing, and acting, Brighton hopes to pursue a career in the performing arts.
Home schoolers are doing well in more unusual competitions as well. Two years ago, Chris Mayernik, a 12-year-old home schooled student from Fairfax, VA, won the national 1998 Lego Deep Sea Challenge Build-a-thon. Home schooler Paul Griebenow from Tazewell, VA, is a national champion in flying battery-powered, 6-to-8-foot-wingspan aircraft. Later this year, he will represent the United States at an international competition in Greece.
The home school movement is attracting more and more families with motivated students who desire to pursue their studies farther than traditional schooling allows.
Home schooling offers students and parents the flexibility to focus on the subjects of their choice and to incorporate students’ special interests and talents, such as music, computer programming, creative writing, geography, spelling, or even LegosTM into their school curriculum." cite
As you can see, homeschool students have a well rounded education in all areas, not just spelling and geography.
How about John Stuart Mill (Economist), Albert Schweitzer (Physician), Oliver Heaviside (physicist and electromagnetism researcher), Michael Faraday (electrochemist), T.H. Huxley, Sir Frank Whittle (invented turbo jet engine), William Lear (airplane creator), Robert Frost (Pulitzer Prize-winning poet), Mattie J. T. Stepanek (11-year-old author of Heartsongs), Joseph Pulitzer (publisher; established Pulitzer Prize).
Here's a few famous homeschooled educators:
· Catharine Beecher - co-founder of the Hartford Female Seminary
· Jill Ker Conway - first woman president of Smith College
· Timothy Dwight - President of Yale University
· William Samuel Johnson - President of Columbia College
· Horace Mann - "Father of the American Common School"
· Charlotte Mason - Founder of Charlotte Mason College of Education
· Fred Terman - President of Stanford University
· Frank Vandiver - President of Texas A&M University
· Booker T. Washington - Founder of Tuskegee Institute
· John Witherspoon - President of Princeton University
If the boot fits.... :idunno:
Garbage collectors make good money, here. They start out around $15 an hour plus benefits here. My brother-in-law is a garbage collector in California. He makes $22 an hour plus benefits; plus he found a fully functional computer and laser printer and took them home.
I don't really need to talk to my collector. My bil is one too. In rural areas, like where I live, all they have to know is how to drive the truck and pick up trash cans to dump into them.
I'll get back to you on the rest of this later. I have to take my daughter's friend home and go get gasoline. :wave:
JoyfulRook
New member
:idunno: TheBarbarian lives in a dream world, obviously. It's kinda sad.
Mr. 5020
New member
True.
Barbarian observes:
But it apparently didn't take. He's allergic to facts, he endorses homeschooling, so, one has to conclude that he's sipped the kool-aid. If it's so worthless, why are you so frantic to find a way around it? More likely, he's one of the few who simply didn't bother to learn. He certainly acts like a homeschooler. Notice that he called me an idiot for citing evidence. If so, what's got you in such a dither?
No, he made a personal attack on me, after I presented evidence he found distasteful. I merely noted his aversion to evidence.
It's all he had to go on. I presented evidence, and he got upset and called me an idiot.
Then why are you responding? You're sure it's me who's an idiot? :rotfl:
Barbarian observes:
See, you don't like evidence, either. It's part of the culture, I suppose.
Um, then you better stick to debating other homeschoolers. Public school debators would have an easy time with you.
By definition, evidence is right, or it isn't evidence. You perhaps mean that there can be conflicting evidence. If so, it's incumbent on you to find some. That's pretty fundamental in debating.
Nope. You just made that up. I'm pretty sure even homeschool debaters know that false attribution is wrong. I said I presented evidence. The declaration of victory, you made up and attributed to me, in an attempt to improve your credibility.
Here's a hint: don't tell me how you don't want to believe my evidence. Go find something meaningful to support your argument.
Barbarian on the myth that US schools are a disaster:
Fortunately, there's a way to test that idea. You see, 8th graders in the United States and about forty other nations have representative schools take a test of math and science. The US is slightly above the average (numerical mean) in both. Some states, in the upper midwest, rank among the highest in the world. Others, mostly in the Southeast, don't do so well. But above average is hardly a "disaster"; you've been taken for a ride on that one.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/results03_eighth03.asp
No. I said that they are above average, as confirmed by TIMSS data. That's not "fine." We should be at the top. I'm just pointing out that it's a silly misconception that they are a disaster.
Good, you've accepted my premise. They aren't a "disaster." They are actually better than those of most nations.
True. While many states, like Iowa and Minnesota, score among the very best in the world, others, like Mississippi and Louisiana are almost third world. We would be near the top, if we could bring up the low performers.
I think you need to find a way to convince people that "above average" means "mediocre." Or possibly a dictionary.
I'm a bit surprised that you think the US teaches for the test, but the rest of the world does not. And I'm wondering how it's possible for teachers to do that, since they have no idea what the test will be before it's given. I certainly would like to see your evidence for this.
It wasn't in my assertion, either. In public school debates, you have to debate the point offered, not one you made up on the spot. Homeschool debating seems a little less um, formal than those in public school.
I'm unaware of any studies between homeschool and public school students, of the same demographic groups. Mimi simply pulled a fast one on you. Public schools contain students of parents who don't care, as well as those who do care. You've been swindeled into comparing apples and oranges. Match up the children of motivated parents, and probably you'll find something quite different.
And, (of course) public schools have the facilities and specialists to offer a much more three-dimensional curriculum than almost any homeschooler can offer. Mimi wasn't entirely honest about that, either.
It's possble to do a great job of homeschooling. But often, kids get shortchanged and left out. It's why all the recent Nobel Prize winners are from public and private schools, not homeschools.
Barbarian on the odd notion that homeschoolers are less dysfunctional:
That seems extremely doubtful. The divorce rate for evangelical Christians (the great bulk of homeschoolers) is much higher than for orthodox Christians and even higher than it is for atheists. It would seem that a family broken by divorce is by definition, dysfunctional.
Are evangelicals more likely to love their neighbor more than others? There is little evidence of it. Most people's closest neighbor is their spouse. Catholics do a much better job loving their spouse for life and have a much lower divorce rate than evangelicals, for example.
A poll by George Barna last fall reported that 37 percent of unbelievers had divorced, which is not a surprise. So have 39 percent of all Protestants (including 42 percent of all Pentecostals). A remarkable 35 percent of all born-again Evangelicals have divorced, which is identical to the 35% of divorced adults who are not born again. What's more, 23 percent of Evangelicals have had TWO divorces.
http://www.ethicsandreligion.com/red...umns/C1241.htm
Barna, BTW, is himself an evangelical, and is stunned by the results he got.
It's perfectly on. That's the group that tends to be homeschoolers, and they are measurably more dysfunctional as families than other Christians, and even more than atheists.
But most homeschoolers are evangelicals.
My life among conservative Christians began when my wife and I decided to homeschool our children. Anyone who homeschools must have a support group, and the children must have peers. And, especially in the South, most homeschoolers are evangelical-to-fundamentalist Protestants,
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0509&article=050940
According to George Barna, over 90 percent of homeschoolers describe themselves as Christian, with about 49% specifying "born-again." Evangelicals comprise about 8% of the US population according to the last census. (Statistical Abstract of the United States) Nuff said.
Barbarian on failures of homeschooling:
How about math and engineering competitions?
You don't get Nobels, or make technological advances by spelling well. As long as the public and private schools dominate competions that require more than memorization, then there's a deficit for homeschooling.
You cited a half-dozen against thousands. If you were in a debate, you'd have done yourself serious damage.
Barbarian on the lack of recent acheivement by homeschoolers:
Hmmm... no one from the last 50 years in your first group. Let's see if we can find any even close...
Not in the past 50 years.
Not in the past 50 years.
Who? Oh, yes, Heaviside. They lied to you about him. He attended public school until he was 16. And, (of course) he wasn't in the last 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside
I am, BTW, generally taking your word for the others being homeschoolers, but since you obviously have simply copied your argument without checking facts, perhaps they lied about others, too.
Not in the last 50 years. They lied to you about him, too. He was never homeschooled. He got the equivalent of an 8th grade education in public schools, left to be an apprentice, and taught himself the rest as an adult. Am I going to have to check all of these? Don't have time, but I'll spot check.
Not in the last 50 years. Huxley went briefly to public school, but was never homeschooled. He taught himself what he wanted to learn.
Not in the last 50 years, and they lied to you about him, too.
Frank was educated at Milverton primary school and later at the Leamington College for boys.
http://www.aoxj32.dsl.pipex.com/NewFiles/FrankWhittle.html
Lear was born in Hannibal, Missouri as an only child. He later moved with his family to Chicago, where he attended school up until the eighth grade. He enlisted in the United States Navy during World War I, serving as a radio operator. Lear had no formal education past the eighth grade other than the courses which he took in the navy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Lear
Um, wrote a book? OK, lowering the bar...
Pulitzer was educated in private schools in Budapest.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/pulitzer.htm
(I've got to say that you're certainly trusting the wrong people; do you realize what introducing faked evidence would do to you in a real debate?)
And so on... By now, I'm sure you're wondering about the very noticable lack of such people among the homeschooled of the last half-century. There's an important lesson here, if you'll not simply deny your own evidence.
Barbarian observes:
Of course, you could do the homeschool thing in responding to the evidence.
Call me an idiot.
I wouldn't call you an idiot, but the kindest thing I can say is that you are much too trusting of others. You might want to consider what you can learn from this debacle.
But it apparently didn't take. He's allergic to facts, he endorses homeschooling, so, one has to conclude that he's sipped the kool-aid. If it's so worthless, why are you so frantic to find a way around it? More likely, he's one of the few who simply didn't bother to learn. He certainly acts like a homeschooler. Notice that he called me an idiot for citing evidence. If so, what's got you in such a dither?
No, he made a personal attack on me, after I presented evidence he found distasteful. I merely noted his aversion to evidence.
It's all he had to go on. I presented evidence, and he got upset and called me an idiot.
Then why are you responding? You're sure it's me who's an idiot? :rotfl:
Barbarian observes:
See, you don't like evidence, either. It's part of the culture, I suppose.
Um, then you better stick to debating other homeschoolers. Public school debators would have an easy time with you.
By definition, evidence is right, or it isn't evidence. You perhaps mean that there can be conflicting evidence. If so, it's incumbent on you to find some. That's pretty fundamental in debating.
Nope. You just made that up. I'm pretty sure even homeschool debaters know that false attribution is wrong. I said I presented evidence. The declaration of victory, you made up and attributed to me, in an attempt to improve your credibility.
Here's a hint: don't tell me how you don't want to believe my evidence. Go find something meaningful to support your argument.
Barbarian on the myth that US schools are a disaster:
Fortunately, there's a way to test that idea. You see, 8th graders in the United States and about forty other nations have representative schools take a test of math and science. The US is slightly above the average (numerical mean) in both. Some states, in the upper midwest, rank among the highest in the world. Others, mostly in the Southeast, don't do so well. But above average is hardly a "disaster"; you've been taken for a ride on that one.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/results03_eighth03.asp
No. I said that they are above average, as confirmed by TIMSS data. That's not "fine." We should be at the top. I'm just pointing out that it's a silly misconception that they are a disaster.
Good, you've accepted my premise. They aren't a "disaster." They are actually better than those of most nations.
True. While many states, like Iowa and Minnesota, score among the very best in the world, others, like Mississippi and Louisiana are almost third world. We would be near the top, if we could bring up the low performers.
I think you need to find a way to convince people that "above average" means "mediocre." Or possibly a dictionary.
I'm a bit surprised that you think the US teaches for the test, but the rest of the world does not. And I'm wondering how it's possible for teachers to do that, since they have no idea what the test will be before it's given. I certainly would like to see your evidence for this.
It wasn't in my assertion, either. In public school debates, you have to debate the point offered, not one you made up on the spot. Homeschool debating seems a little less um, formal than those in public school.
I'm unaware of any studies between homeschool and public school students, of the same demographic groups. Mimi simply pulled a fast one on you. Public schools contain students of parents who don't care, as well as those who do care. You've been swindeled into comparing apples and oranges. Match up the children of motivated parents, and probably you'll find something quite different.
And, (of course) public schools have the facilities and specialists to offer a much more three-dimensional curriculum than almost any homeschooler can offer. Mimi wasn't entirely honest about that, either.
It's possble to do a great job of homeschooling. But often, kids get shortchanged and left out. It's why all the recent Nobel Prize winners are from public and private schools, not homeschools.
Barbarian on the odd notion that homeschoolers are less dysfunctional:
That seems extremely doubtful. The divorce rate for evangelical Christians (the great bulk of homeschoolers) is much higher than for orthodox Christians and even higher than it is for atheists. It would seem that a family broken by divorce is by definition, dysfunctional.
Are evangelicals more likely to love their neighbor more than others? There is little evidence of it. Most people's closest neighbor is their spouse. Catholics do a much better job loving their spouse for life and have a much lower divorce rate than evangelicals, for example.
A poll by George Barna last fall reported that 37 percent of unbelievers had divorced, which is not a surprise. So have 39 percent of all Protestants (including 42 percent of all Pentecostals). A remarkable 35 percent of all born-again Evangelicals have divorced, which is identical to the 35% of divorced adults who are not born again. What's more, 23 percent of Evangelicals have had TWO divorces.
http://www.ethicsandreligion.com/red...umns/C1241.htm
Barna, BTW, is himself an evangelical, and is stunned by the results he got.
It's perfectly on. That's the group that tends to be homeschoolers, and they are measurably more dysfunctional as families than other Christians, and even more than atheists.
But most homeschoolers are evangelicals.
My life among conservative Christians began when my wife and I decided to homeschool our children. Anyone who homeschools must have a support group, and the children must have peers. And, especially in the South, most homeschoolers are evangelical-to-fundamentalist Protestants,
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0509&article=050940
According to George Barna, over 90 percent of homeschoolers describe themselves as Christian, with about 49% specifying "born-again." Evangelicals comprise about 8% of the US population according to the last census. (Statistical Abstract of the United States) Nuff said.
Barbarian on failures of homeschooling:
How about math and engineering competitions?
You don't get Nobels, or make technological advances by spelling well. As long as the public and private schools dominate competions that require more than memorization, then there's a deficit for homeschooling.
You cited a half-dozen against thousands. If you were in a debate, you'd have done yourself serious damage.
Barbarian on the lack of recent acheivement by homeschoolers:
Hmmm... no one from the last 50 years in your first group. Let's see if we can find any even close...
Not in the past 50 years.
Not in the past 50 years.
Who? Oh, yes, Heaviside. They lied to you about him. He attended public school until he was 16. And, (of course) he wasn't in the last 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside
I am, BTW, generally taking your word for the others being homeschoolers, but since you obviously have simply copied your argument without checking facts, perhaps they lied about others, too.
Not in the last 50 years. They lied to you about him, too. He was never homeschooled. He got the equivalent of an 8th grade education in public schools, left to be an apprentice, and taught himself the rest as an adult. Am I going to have to check all of these? Don't have time, but I'll spot check.
Not in the last 50 years. Huxley went briefly to public school, but was never homeschooled. He taught himself what he wanted to learn.
Not in the last 50 years, and they lied to you about him, too.
Frank was educated at Milverton primary school and later at the Leamington College for boys.
http://www.aoxj32.dsl.pipex.com/NewFiles/FrankWhittle.html
Not in the last 50 years. And (you guessed it)...
Lear was born in Hannibal, Missouri as an only child. He later moved with his family to Chicago, where he attended school up until the eighth grade. He enlisted in the United States Navy during World War I, serving as a radio operator. Lear had no formal education past the eighth grade other than the courses which he took in the navy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Lear
Not in the last 50 years. But at least we finally have one who was for part of his life, homeschooled.
Who?
Um, wrote a book? OK, lowering the bar...
Not in the last 50 years. And guess what...
Pulitzer was educated in private schools in Budapest.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/pulitzer.htm
(I've got to say that you're certainly trusting the wrong people; do you realize what introducing faked evidence would do to you in a real debate?)
Not in the last 50 years. Briefly homeschooled, but from age ten on, was educated in private school.
And so on... By now, I'm sure you're wondering about the very noticable lack of such people among the homeschooled of the last half-century. There's an important lesson here, if you'll not simply deny your own evidence.
Barbarian observes:
Of course, you could do the homeschool thing in responding to the evidence.
Call me an idiot.
I wouldn't call you an idiot, but the kindest thing I can say is that you are much too trusting of others. You might want to consider what you can learn from this debacle.
Last edited: