Christian Kids in the Public School

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian laughs:
If you think kindergarten is like that in a public school, I think I see the problem. You can't live in fear and suspicion like that, if you want your to have a chance to grow up to be productive adults.

Barbarian observes:
I believe in making them wolf-proof. Works better. Unless you plan on keeping them locked in the basement for life.

Why for life? Why not make them wolf-proof and then let them out?

Barbarian observes:
I did. If they aren't ready to be in public by age 5, you blew it.

You were trapped by the logical conclusions of your own claims that said if kids are ready for the public school system, they are ready for it at the start.

Could you rephrase that in English? Apparently, you've confused me with someone else.

And that's what you started to say in the final quote of this series. But that was untenable on it's face so you changed the subject. Suddenly you didn't want to support having kids ready for the public school system at the beginning of their public school career, rather you preferred to limit the entire career of public school and change it to kindergarten only.

If you didn't want to talk about it, why did you bring it up?

So, I propose we get off the straw man of whether 5 year olds can handle kindergarten, and get back on the topic.

If you want to stop talking about it, just quit mentioning it.

(more frantic name-calling)

:rotfl:

(Takes offense at Barbarian's amusement of "whatever" as an argument)

The point is you know you are putting your kids into a battle of worldviews.

Barbarian chuckles:
Nope. In fact one teacher was a religious education teacher at my church. Maybe it's the kind of community in which you live.

One teacher? That was your best response? This response can be used to correctly identify you as an idiot.

Temper, temper. Perhaps it's just the town you live in. My kids never once had a teacher that tried to teach them atheism.

Overall, the public school system requires either constant or regular attention by parents to correct the worldview errors that are introduced by the vast majority of teachers in the system, regardless of the community one is in.

Sorry, not a credible claim. Maybe some evidence would be useful.

Barbarian observes:
Sounds like you're more than a little paranoid about the goverment. I think the government is usually the problem, but in this case, they aren't competent enough to win out over good parenting. Bad parenting, maybe.

No, really, if you are having your kids raised by a system that is founded on incompetents, it will affect your children.

Sorry about the schools in your town. My town has a highly-effective system.

Bad parenting... I think that qualifies again as an insult.

You need to get over the idea that schools are resposible for parenting. If you aren't willing to do it yourself, the schools can't do it for you.

I'm no more paranoid than you admit in the second sentence.

Barbarian smiles:
I read the denial, but then your behavior is more persuasive.

(more denial)

Yep.

Barbarian laughs
You think adults in public school try to make kids into atheists? That's a truly crazy idea.

If you are using "atheists" as an all encompassing term to refer to any form of trying to overturn the parents authority or Christian worldview, then it isn't crazy.

Barbarian observes:
If you want to go that far, then it's paranoid and crazy. Do you honest to God believe that?

It depends. How are you using the word "atheist"?

One who doesn't believe in a god.

I notice you didn't explain yourself, but I realize you again trapped yourself with the logical conclusions of your claims. You want to change the terms of "opposing worldview" which could be a number of -ism's that you would rather your children not be indoctrinated with to "atheism only".

You're personal definition of "atheism" is noted, but I don't see that in public schools, either.

Barbarian observes:
I'd be pretty upset if a teacher tried to do "parenting." In my district, they get fired for that.

The antecedent to "it" at the end of my quote was not "parenting". Try to answer the question again.

Try to calmly explain what it is you want to say, and try it again.

I'm curious, why do you have "parenting" in quotes? What do you think "parenting" is?

That which is done by parents. Hence, "parenting" because if the school does it, it isn't really parenting.

I was beginning to respect your debate style, but I'm realizing that you cannot defend your ideas. I'm certainly impressed with your ability to insult.

Actually, you do a lot more name-calling than most here. But you don't seem to be able to frame a cogent argument. Instead of getting angry, try to find some facts, and show me what you mean.

Barbarian asks:
Christians have been called worse than "muddled." That's your best attempt at defaming us?

This isn't defamation as much as warning you so you can have the truth.

If you want to convince Christians they are wrong, you'll have to do better than that.

Barbarian observes:
I don't think you and truth have been in hailing distance for some time.

You're making a liar out of me.

You seem to be a self-made man.

Barbarian laughs:
You think that's what kindergarten is? No wonder you act that way.

No. Statements like parents needing to regularly correct what they learn in school,

That's rarely necessary in my community. Sorry about yours.

or statements that one teacher is a good Christian

Actually, most are. The fact that one is, doesn't mean the rest aren't.

statements like your son dallied in atheism when he should be an adult,

I could have made a big deal of it. I didn't. I asked him what he meant by it, and asked some more questions, and by the next semester, it was gone, and he was a believer. Good result.

statements that avoid talking about the logic conclusions of starting kids off at the age of 5 in a system that will try to mold them into something that you don't want.

I've had to conclude that your community differs a lot from most American communities.

Barbarian
Barbarian observes:
I wish it was. Every year we read about people who think their kids are going to be corrupted by the world, and lock them in the house.

A lot more common than school boards deciding to turn kids into atheists. You can't come up with one example of that, but you believe it. On the other hand, there are numerous such cases every year of parents locking their kids in and refusing to let them leave the house even for school.

So, how normal is it?

Public schools trying to turn kids to atheists? So far, you've declined to give any examples. None, so far as we can tell.

People locking kids in a house. Just read one in the paper, today. Have you got any checkable cases of public schools trying to teach atheism to kids?

Barbarian suggests:
Look, you're embarassed and upset, and calling names. That won't make things better for you. If you read the Bible, do the right thing by your kids, and try to make your life an imitation of Christ, it will all work out right.

Getting angry and verbally abusive won't help. Think about it and try a little harder.

If you had any substance to your arguments, I might be inclined to listen to this advice.

Suit yourself. It's good advice. Ignore it at your risk.

Barbarian observes:
I'm quite sincere. You need to get your priorities in line with God. And acting like that is not the way to do it.

Acting like what? Calling an idiot an idiot? Wouldn't you agree that God would be happy with that?

I think God would be delighted if you were less angry and less paranoid about the world. I'm not saying you're a bad person. You might be a very nice person. I can't judge that from a message board.

Barbarian on "calm name-calling:"
I bet you scream calmly, too...

What's this? As your arguments get less effective your wit disappears as well?

It wasn't meant to get you upset. It was to suggest that name-calling isn't very smart.

Barbarian observes:
I think we all understand where you're coming from, now.

Another Christ-like insult?

Is it not telling that you think an expression of understanding is an insult?

 

[The Barbarian]

(And Kevin gets out his pom-poms)

Yorzhik in post #658 effectively formats his post, and in the process annihlates Barbarian to smithereenies! Way to go brother!

Nice cheerleading. But do you have a nice backflip?

Bet you do...

 

[Lighthouse]

(Barbarian points out facts)

Lighthouse comes up with a typical homeschooler argument:
"You're an idiot."

(Barbarian laughs)



But you do homeschool your kids, don't you? You certainly argue like a homeschooler. :rotfl:

Kids? You really are an idiot, aren't you? And I didn't even need a homeschool education to figure that out. Of course, I attribute my ability to recognize just how much of an idiot you are to my four years in private schools.

 

[Lighthouse]

No, of course not. Lighthouse seems to think so.



Some of my best memories are from that time.

Don't tell Lighthouse; he thinks that if you go to kindergarten, you will have to struggle with adults who will try to make you an atheist.:shocked:

I went to Kindergarten. And I was four when I went. I never said five was too young for children to go to Kindergarten.:nono:

 

[The Barbarian]

You don't need to be defensive about it, you know. There are actually some private schools that are better than many public ones.

Where did you go to private school?

 

[Lighthouse]

You don't need to be defensive about it, you know. There are actually some private schools that are better than many public ones.

Where did you go to private school?

Locally.

 

[The Barbarian]

You don't sound very proud of it. I went to Sabula Community School in Iowa. Not a very big school, but I got enough of a foundation to get through graduate school and professional training.

If you're not proud of it, maybe that tells you something important about the education you got there.

Or the lack of it.

 

[Lighthouse]

You don't sound very proud of it. I went to Sabula Community School in Iowa. Not a very big school, but I got enough of a foundation to get through graduate school and professional training.

If you're not proud of it, maybe that tells you something important about the education you got there.

Or the lack of it.

Was that directed at me?

 

[The Barbarian]

At anyone who's ashamed of their education, no matter where it was given. If you don't want to share that information, don't.

 

[Lighthouse]

At anyone who's ashamed of their education, no matter where it was given. If you don't want to share that information, don't.

I went to two different private schools. One for three years, the other for one. It got too expensive for my parents after that. And they were still paying taxes for public schools, even though I wasn't in one. That's not fair. And as for what two schools those were, I doubt you would know either one of them, since you don't live around here. And the first one isn't even functioning now, and hasn't been for years.

 

[Yorzhik]

The Barbarian and I have gone over a few things and he's conceded all points for the most part. So there's no need for me to respond point by point or The Barbarian to respond unless he feels a need to change what he's already stated.

One point would be what age children should be ready to take on the "wolves" at. In this case we agreed "the wolves" is the public school system because The Barbarian says 5, which is reasonable because that is the start of one's school career. I disagreed, saying that 5 was too young. I would suggest the closer a child got to adulthood the better.

The next point, related to the previous point, is that The Barbarian seems to think that kids should be ready to take on the wolves at 5, but evidently that doesn't mean being stalwarts of the faith by the time they reach adulthood. Your kids should be having their college professors dallying with Christianity, not the other way around. Your kids should be getting stronger and stronger as they are trained so that if they are ready to take on the wolves by the time they are 5 they should be ready to take on trained enemies directly opposing your child by the time they are adults.

The next point The Barbarian conceded on was that it took (at least) regular attention on the part of parents to fix the errors introduced by the public school system. He did later contradict himself and asked for evidence that regular attention as required, but he brought it up so I'll leave him to his double-minded state which he'll have to work out himself.

The next point conceded was that the government was in control of the public school system, that it was a political process that controlled the school boards. This should have led the conversation on what philosophy the government prefers kids learn, but I'm pretty sure The Barbarian didn't want to go there because the government certainly doesn't promote Christianity.

The next point is that The Barbarian seems to think that a religious teacher in a public school matters. He says that perhaps the problem with the school system I'm in is that my community... doesn't provide only Christian teachers in public school? ... doesn't provide even ONE Christian teacher in public school (does he think that would make a difference)? Does The Barbarian realize that my community is, in general, just like his? But regardless of all that, he does concede that Christian teachers are required to teach Christian values.

The next points are not directly on topic, but show The Barbarian's inability to follow logic OR The Barbarian's ability to try and weasel his way out of answering obvious questions.

Why cannot The Barbarian simply admit that "I believe in making them wolf-proof. Works better. Unless you plan on keeping them locked in the basement for life." includes figures of speech?

Why does The Barbarian try to proffer the idea that I think only atheism is taught in public schools? On the surface it's just another weasel move, but maybe it's a deeper problem?

Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge? He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like. Why the evasion? It's a simple question that even I can answer - watch: "no, it is not wrong to judge". See? Besides, I'm not insulting and name-calling as much as expressing an understanding.

 

[The Barbarian]

I went to two different private schools. One for three years, the other for one. It got too expensive for my parents after that. And they were still paying taxes for public schools, even though I wasn't in one. That's not fair. And as for what two schools those were, I doubt you would know either one of them, since you don't live around here.

You don't have to explain. If you don't want to say, don't say. If one or more went out of business, you don't have to explain why.

Just don't say.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Barbarian and I have gone over a few things and he's conceded all points for the most part.

Hmm... so you have a reading comprehension problem.

So there's no need for me to respond point by point

Anything you want to concede, just don't respond to it, and we'll know.

One point would be what age children should be ready to take on the "wolves" at. In this case we agreed "the wolves" is the public school system because The Barbarian says 5, which is reasonable because that is the start of one's school career. I disagreed, saying that 5 was too young. I would suggest the closer a child got to adulthood the better.

So you now admit that you were wrong? Describing kindergarten teachers as "wolves" is pretty funny.

The next point, related to the previous point, is that The Barbarian seems to think that kids should be ready to take on the wolves at 5, but evidently that doesn't mean being stalwarts of the faith by the time they reach adulthood.

I think it's healthy to question one's faith. God is strong enough to handle it. And as you see, my way works. Often, yours doesn't. Many kids who were taught never to question their faith lost it entirely.

Your kids should be having their college professors dallying with Christianity, not the other way around. Your kids should be getting stronger and stronger as they are trained so that if they are ready to take on the wolves by the time they are 5 they should be ready to take on trained enemies directly opposing your child by the time they are adults.

I can only point to the outcome. Peter and Paul, and many other stalwarts of the church wavered and came out of the test strengthened. One who is never tested is never strong.

The next point The Barbarian conceded on was that it took (at least) regular attention on the part of parents to fix the errors introduced by the public school system.

Actually you made that up. I never said that. I said that parents who are succesful, do their own schooling of children. Those who assume public school will take care of everything will be disappointed. "Errors introduced by the public school system" was your rather clumsy attempt at deception. You aren't a very honest person.

The next point conceded was that the government was in control of the public school system, that it was a political process that controlled the school boards.

By definition, local voters control the public schools. If you doubt it, I'd like to see your reasoning.

This should have led the conversation on what philosophy the government prefers kids learn,

Depends on the government, I suppose. Maybe atheists run things in your community. If so, consider going to something more representative of America.

but I'm pretty sure The Barbarian didn't want to go there because the government certainly doesn't promote Christianity.

There is that "freedom of religion" thing in the Constitution. Government is forbidden to promote religion and is also forbidden to suppress religion. The Founders thought that this was the responsibility of parents and churches. I agree. How about you?

The next point is that The Barbarian seems to think that a religious teacher in a public school matters.

Nope. Barbarian thought it laughable that a school system composed mostly of Christian teachers could be antiChristian.

He says that perhaps the problem with the school system I'm in is that my community... doesn't provide only Christian teachers in public school?

Nope. Another dishonesty? Or maybe just that reading comprehension problem, again. But I have to conclude that your community has to be pretty bad if there isn't a majority of Christian teachers there.

Does The Barbarian realize that my community is, in general, just like his?

You have described a rather unusual community, one unlike any I know of in the US.

But regardless of all that, he does concede that Christian teachers are required to teach Christian values.

Nope. You lied about that, too. Christian teachers, like any other, have to teach what the curriculum says. If they find it conflicts with their faith, then they leave.

Why does The Barbarian try to proffer the idea that I think only atheism is taught in public schools?

If you're willing to concede that point, then I'll say you no longer think so.

Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?

I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. Sometimes, it's O.K. to judge. You just made up that one. I never told you it was wrong to judge. Remember, honesty may be less satisfying at the moment, but it's the only way to go in the long run.

He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like.

So is dishonesty. We'll just have to disagree on those things.

Why the evasion? It's a simple question that even I can answer - watch: "no, it is not wrong to judge". See? Besides, I'm not insulting and name-calling as much as expressing an understanding.

Probably, if you spent more time trying to frame a decent argument, and less time misrepresenting what other people say, you'd do better. Worth a try.

And it would be a better imitation of Christ.

Think it over.

 

[Yorzhik]

Describing kindergarten teachers as "wolves" is pretty funny.

Well... you did. Here's what you said.

I believe it's not right to throw one's kids to the wolves. Wouldn't you agree with that?

I believe in making them wolf-proof. Works better. Unless you plan on keeping them locked in the basement for life.

Why for life? Why not make them wolf-proof and then let them out? That doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

I did. If they aren't ready to be in public by age 5, you blew it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's healthy to question one's faith. God is strong enough to handle it. And as you see, my way works. Often, yours doesn't. Many kids who were taught never to question their faith lost it entirely.

I can only point to the outcome. Peter and Paul, and many other stalwarts of the church wavered and came out of the test strengthened. One who is never tested is never strong.

Didn't you understand what you were saying?:

And you don't have to be afraid of it. Study after study shows that one's children, for all the rebellion they show still look to parents for their assumptions and beliefs. Even if they go to public school.

And that's why they leave the church over 80% of the time after high school?

If their parents haven't given them adequate grounding in God and His plans for us. The figure is way too high, but if you've done a poor job then your kids might reject your beliefs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually you made that up. I never said that. I said that parents who are succesful, do their own schooling of children. Those who assume public school will take care of everything will be disappointed. "Errors introduced by the public school system" was your rather clumsy attempt at deception. You aren't a very honest person.

No, here's what you actually said:

Thanks for admitting that without the parent's constant attention, the kids will turn from them. That's all we need to know about what direction this gov't wants to take your kids in.

"Constant?" Nope. Just regularly.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next point conceded was that the government was in control of the public school system, that it was a political process that controlled the school boards.

By definition, local voters control the public schools.

In other words, The Barbarian concedes. So if he would like to stop playing games we can actually move forward on this front.

So, is the government going to teach your kids the Christian worldview? Would teaching the Christian worldview be considered a breach of the wall of separation?

Depends on the government, I suppose.

Right you are. And the government of the US will not breach the wall of Separation of Church and State. And they run the public schools.

There is that "freedom of religion" thing in the Constitution. Government is forbidden to promote religion and is also forbidden to suppress religion. The Founders thought that this was the responsibility of parents and churches. I agree. How about you?

That's the problem. The government doesn't promote Christianity in schools, and it should if your children are to be taught correctly.

Nope. Barbarian thought it laughable that a school system composed mostly of Christian teachers could be antiChristian.

So you're saying that the school does Christianity? Should it (see your quote above)?

He says that perhaps the problem with the school system I'm in is that my community... doesn't provide only Christian teachers in public school?

I'm ask'n

Does The Barbarian realize that my community is, in general, just like his?

You have described a rather unusual community, one unlike any I know of in the US.

The Barbarian likes to use hyperbole as well as figures in his writing! In reality, just like there were no Philistines in Israel at the time of Christ, there are almost no communities in the US substantially different from the others. You can pick up stakes anyplace in the US and move almost anywhere and start the next grade-level without any drastic change in the public school system.

That being said, I would be interested in the details of why you think the community I live in is much different than yours.

But regardless of all that, he does concede that Christian teachers are required to teach Christian values.

Nope. You lied about that, too.

Here, I can express an understanding: The Barbarian is an idiot. My statement is self evident. Can The Barbarian imagine a bunch of humanists enthusiastically telling the kids how stealing is wrong because right and wrong proceed from the nature of God? :darwinism:

Christian teachers, like any other, have to teach what the curriculum says. If they find it conflicts with their faith, then they leave.

Right. This has been my whole point this thread.

Why does The Barbarian try to proffer the idea that I think only atheism is taught in public schools?

If you're willing to concede that point, then I'll say you no longer think so.

Here's what you said:

Yes, children are not strong enough to battle with adults and win.

You think adults in public school try to make kids into atheists?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?

I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. Sometimes, it's O.K. to judge. You just made up that one. I never told you it was wrong to judge. Remember, honesty may be less satisfying at the moment, but it's the only way to go in the long run.

Quit freaking out. I was just asking. More often than not when I ask that question repeatedly and never get an answer, like with you, it is because the person thinks it is wrong to judge.

And there is good reason to question your answer, because you follow up with saying that my name-calling and insulting is either wrong or un-Christ-like; when both name-calling and insulting are merely forms of judging:

He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like.

So is dishonesty. We'll just have to disagree on those things.

I realize the chances of you answering directly are slim, but it still would be helpful to know what you think "those things" are.

Probably, if you spent more time trying to frame a decent argument, and less time misrepresenting what other people say, you'd do better. Worth a try.

And it would be a better imitation of Christ.

Think it over.

I thought it over. I even went back and read what we both wrote. And I never misrepresented anything you said. I realize, again, that the chances you would ever answer directly are slim, but can you cite an example? So far, I've been able to provide the evidence of how I've kept what you've said in context.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian laughs:
Describing kindergarten teachers as "wolves" is pretty funny.

Well... you did.

No, I didn't. You just made it up, and pretended I said it.

Here's what you said.

Yorzhik says:
I believe it's not right to throw one's kids to the wolves. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Barbarian observes:
I believe in making them wolf-proof. Works better. Unless you plan on keeping them locked in the basement for life.

(hmmm... nothing about kindergarten teachers being wolves there)

Barbarian again:
Why for life? Why not make them wolf-proof and then let them out? That doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

(hmmm... nothing about kindergarten teachers being wolves there, either. I think I see a trend here...)

Barbarian observes:
I did. If they aren't ready to be in public by age 5, you blew it.


Barbarian observes:
I think it's healthy to question one's faith. God is strong enough to handle it. And as you see, my way works. Often, yours doesn't. Many kids who were taught never to question their faith lost it entirely.

I can only point to the outcome. Peter and Paul, and many other stalwarts of the church wavered and came out of the test strengthened. One who is never tested is never strong.

Didn't you understand what you were saying?:

Yep. And it's not what you're claiming I said. Why not just come clean and admit you made it up, and go on? Trying to deny you lied about it, is just going to make it worse for you.

Barbarian observes:
And you don't have to be afraid of it. Study after study shows that one's children, for all the rebellion they show still look to parents for their assumptions and beliefs. Even if they go to public school.

(hmmmm.... still nothing about kindergarten teachers being wolves)

And that's why they leave the church over 80% of the time after high school?

Barbarian observes:
If their parents haven't given them adequate grounding in God and His plans for us. The figure is way too high, but if you've done a poor job then your kids might reject your beliefs.

(and still nothing about kindergarten teachers being wolves)

Barbarian points out another Yorzhik dishonesty:
Actually you made that up. I never said that. I said that parents who are succesful, do their own schooling of children. Those who assume public school will take care of everything will be disappointed. "Errors introduced by the public school system" was your rather clumsy attempt at deception. You aren't a very honest person.

Yorzhik tries another deception:
Thanks for admitting that without the parent's constant attention, the kids will turn from them. That's all we need to know about what direction this gov't wants to take your kids in.

Barbarian laughs:
"Constant?" Nope. Just regularly.

(still nothing about kindergarten teachers being wolves)

(Yorzhik admits that voters in each community control the public schools)

Thank you. That wasn't hard, was it?

(Yorzhik denounces religious liberty)

Now, that's a surprise. :crackup:

(notice that there's still nothing about teachers being wolves)

That's the problem. The government doesn't promote Christianity in schools, and it should if your children are to be taught correctly.

Nonsense. The government in Rome was hostile to Christianity, and Christians did just fine with their children. The problem isn't that the government won't bail you out, the problem is that you won't do your duty as a Christian parent.

Barbarian laughs:
Nope. Barbarian thought it laughable that a school system composed mostly of Christian teachers could be antiChristian.

So you're saying that the school does Christianity?

No. The law requires it to be neutral.

He says that perhaps the problem with the school system I'm in is that my community...

It sounds pretty bad the way you describe it. Maybe you should move.

Does The Barbarian realize that my community is, in general, just like his?

Barbarian observes:
You have described a rather unusual community, one unlike any I know of in the US.

You can pick up stakes anyplace in the US and move almost anywhere and start the next grade-level without any drastic change in the public school system.

If you think so, you don't know much about the public schools in the US. Some states and communities have schools as good as any in the world. Some are almost third-world. And the achievement scores show it. Would you like to learn about it?

But regardless of all that, he does concede that Christian teachers are required to teach Christian values.

Barbarian observes:
Nope. You lied about that, too.

Here, I can express an understanding: The Barbarian is an idiot.

You got caught lying, and you got upset. Fact is, I never said that, and you knew it when you claimed I did. Don't lie, and you won't get caught.

Why does The Barbarian try to proffer the idea that I think only atheism is taught in public schools?

Barbarian observes:
If you're willing to concede that point, then I'll say you no longer think so.

Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?

Barbarian observes:
I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. Sometimes, it's O.K. to judge. You just made up that one. I never told you it was wrong to judge. Remember, honesty may be less satisfying at the moment, but it's the only way to go in the long run.

Quit freaking out. I was just asking.

Actually, you were lying. I never said it, and I don't believe it. Tell the truth, and you won't have to make excuses. I notice you still didn't come up with that statement you claimed I made about kindergarten teachers being wolves. Do you realize what this sort of thing says about you as a Christian?

He seems to think my insulting and name-calling is either wrong or un-Christ-like.

Barbarian observes:
So is dishonesty. We'll just have to disagree on those things.

I realize the chances of you answering directly are slim, but it still would be helpful to know what you think "those things" are.

Lying, name-calling, insulting. That sort of behavior is not Christian. If you were actually a practicing Christian, you'd be a lot more honest and civil.

Barbarian observes:
Probably, if you spent more time trying to frame a decent argument, and less time misrepresenting what other people say, you'd do better. Worth a try.

And it would be a better imitation of Christ.

Think it over.

I thought it over. I even went back and read what we both wrote. And I never misrepresented anything you said.

Let's see...
You lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves.
You lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge.
You lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values.

You get flustered, and then angry, and then you lose all sense of honesty, and call names and lie. That's your way.

I said none of those things. You got angry and made it up, and now you're trying to find a way to slide out of it. Not a chance.

Fess up. It's not just the Christian thing to do, it's a lot less damaging in the long run.

 

[Yorzhik]

The Barbarian was doing well enough up to this point that he could have recovered and gained some respect for the positions he's holding. But instead he decided to go into a rage with a number of unsubstantiated accusations and complicated weasel-like evasions instead of discussing the issues.

Let's see...
You lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves.
You lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge.
You lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values.

I'm sure the The Barbarian would like to claim I have problems with reading comprehension, but demonstrably it is his difficulty in understanding what is written that has caused a lot of his problems. This conversation was started because The Barbarian didn't understand that "Philistines" was a figure. Through the last time that point was discussed, he STILL didn't show he understood the figure. He doesn't understand the figure of using "wolves" for public school teachers (that would include kindergarten teachers). He still insists that a figure he used himself about "locking up your children for life" was literal!

It's no wonder The Barbarian gets into situations where he accuses people of lying when he doesn't talk straight. I think The Barbarian understands those figures very well, but he prefers confusion over clarity, and to rant rather than discuss because his position is weak.

Now, back to the show.

We'll take these one at a time.

"You lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves."
The Barbarian; when someone says that teachers are wolves, and you say that kids have to be ready to face the wolves by 5 years old, you are saying that kindergarten teachers are wolves.

"You lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge."
When I asked you whether it was wrong to judge, you didn't answer. When I asked again, you accused me of lying instead of answering. This is another point where The Barbarian becomes unhinged instead of trying to work through an idea civilly.

"You lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values"
Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. I'll bet The Barbarian is too full of rage to answer directly, but I'll stay civil and if he wants to answer some simple questions we can see where we are both coming from on the "Christian teachers and Christian values" issue. Isn't it self-evident that Christian teachers would be required to teach Christian values?

You get flustered, and then angry, and then you lose all sense of honesty, and call names and lie. That's your way.

Actually, since you continue to melt down it becomes less stressful for me. I don't have any frustration at this point and thus have no need to continue on to anger. It's just my way.

I said none of those things. You got angry and made it up, and now you're trying to find a way to slide out of it. Not a chance.

Fess up. It's not just the Christian thing to do, it's a lot less damaging in the long run.

I've been reiterating and more strongly supporting my assertions with each post. Sliding out of it? You're right... not a chance.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Now I need to go back and note a couple curious things. I said, "Yes, children are not strong enough to battle with adults and win." and somehow out of that, The Barbarian thinks I was discussing atheism? He answered, "You think adults in public school try to make kids into atheists?". I was wondering where his bizarre response came from, so I asked a clarifying question, "Why does The Barbarian try to proffer the idea that I think only atheism is taught in public schools?". But instead of clarifying, The Barbarian throws the unsubstantiated accusation, " If you're willing to concede that point, then I'll say you no longer think so."

So maybe The Barbarian can point to a quote of mine where I implied or directly stated that I think only atheism is taught in public schools?

And another curiosity; The Barbarian says his way works better. His way is the way most parents train their kids (sending them to public school). When it is pointed out that 80% of the children leave the church after high school, he doesn't seem to be able to add. If I can express an understanding, I'd have to say The Barbarian is an idiot.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Yorzhik again declines to show that Barbarian said that kindergarten teachers are wolves)

No surprise there.

After all:
He lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves.
He lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge.
He lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values.

I'm sure the The Barbarian would like to claim I have problems with reading comprehension,

I thought so at first, but it's clear that you simply lied about it.

He doesn't understand the figure of using "wolves" for public school teachers (that would include kindergarten teachers). He still insists that a figure he used himself about "locking up your children for life" was literal!

Sorry. I said it was silly to think that kindergarten teachers are wolves, and you replied that I had said they were. And when challenged, you declined to show that I did. You lied about it. You have three choices. Show where I said it, fess up like a man and go on, or continue to deny it and do yourself more damage.

"You lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves."

The Barbarian; when someone says that teachers are wolves, and you say that kids have to be ready to face the wolves by 5 years old, you are saying that kindergarten teachers are wolves.

Nope. You lied about that, too. One of the problems with lying, is that you have to make up a host of new ones to cover the old ones.

"You lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge."

When I asked you whether it was wrong to judge, you didn't answer.

So you just made up the lie that I did? That's your version of Christian ethics? No wonder you have trouble with the rest of society.

When I asked again, you accused me of lying instead of answering.

You didn't ask. You announced that I believed it was wrong to judge. It was a lie.

"You lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values"

Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. I'll bet The Barbarian is too full of rage to answer directly, but I'll stay civil and if he wants to answer some simple questions we can see where we are both coming from on the "Christian teachers and Christian values" issue. Isn't it self-evident that Christian teachers would be required to teach Christian values?

Your excuse is, I didn't say it, but you believe it. And therefore, you felt justified in saying that I believe it. You're not a very honest person.

Barbarian observes:
You get flustered, and then angry, and then you lose all sense of honesty, and call names and lie. That's your way.

Actually, since you continue to melt down it becomes less stressful for me. I don't have any frustration at this point and thus have no need to continue on to anger. It's just my way.

I read your denial, but your behavior is far more convincing. You've even begun to project your anger on others.

Barbarian observes:
I said none of those things. You got angry and made it up, and now you're trying to find a way to slide out of it. Not a chance.

Fess up. It's not just the Christian thing to do, it's a lot less damaging in the long run.

I've been reiterating and more strongly supporting my assertions with each post.

I notice that you still want to avoid showing that I said kindergarten teachers are wolves. And you now confessed that you felt justified in lying about my position on judging, because I didn't say what I thought about it.

Now I need to go back and note a couple curious things. I said, "Yes, children are not strong enough to battle with adults and win." and somehow out of that, The Barbarian thinks I was discussing atheism?

Nope. You lied about that, too.

And another curiosity; The Barbarian says his way works better. His way is the way most parents train their kids (sending them to public school). When it is pointed out that 80% of the children leave the church after high school,

Are you ready to show us a checkable source for that number? I'm beginning to think you made it up.

If I can express an understanding, I'd have to say The Barbarian is an idiot.

Getting angry and calling names won't help any more than getting angry and lying helped you. Acknowledge that you lied, and go on. Or continue to dig a deeper hole for yourself.

 

[Yorzhik]

(Yorzhik again declines to show that Barbarian said that kindergarten teachers are wolves)

No surprise there.

After all:
He lied about me claiming kindergarten teachers are wolves.

I already posted your quote, but we can add more quotes to make it more clear:

Do they warn the kids to escape the public school system? Or would they be Christians like you who don't seem to have a clue what Christ was like?

If that's your attempt to follow Him, I would have to say that you don't have a clue about Him. He didn't hide from the world; He went out into it and let His light shine in the darkness. This is one of the reasons why Christians don't hide from the world... ...Have some faith in what you believe.

I believe it's not right to throw one's kids to the wolves.

I believe in making them wolf-proof. Works better. Unless you plan on keeping them locked in the basement for life.

Why for life? Why not make them wolf-proof and then let them out? That doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

I did. If they aren't ready to be in public by age 5, you blew it.

What age do kids start kindergarten? And that's the whole point. Even if one cannot do much damage to a child at that age, it's only the start. Pretty soon whatever the government philosophy is how the child will be molded. And it isn't Christianity.

He lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge.

Actually, it isn't clear whether you think it's wrong to judge or not yet. You say you don't think it's wrong to judge, but you don't show why my understanding is wrong. If you thought it was right to judge, instead of returning insults you would attempt to show how my understanding is wrong. You've never done that.

He lied that I said Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values.

Isn't it self evident? Barbarian thought it laughable that a school system composed mostly of Christian teachers could be antiChristian.

"You lied about me thinking it's wrong to judge."

So you just made up the lie that I did?

I never did. I merely asked. Your claim that I lied is made up. You debate like a public school teacher. Are you really a public school teacher or did you just miss your calling?

You didn't ask. You announced that I believed it was wrong to judge. It was a lie.

Really? I said this: "Why cannot The Barbarian simply tell us that he thinks it is wrong to judge?" You'll notice, this was a question. Are you sure you know what a lie is?

I read your denial, but your behavior is far more convincing. You've even begun to project your anger on others.

Your ability to detect my behavior above what you read is defective.


---------------------------------------------------

I said, "Yes, children are not strong enough to battle with adults and win." and somehow out of that, The Barbarian thinks I was discussing atheism?

Nope. You lied about that, too.

Are you saying that I'm lying about what I said? or that I'm lying about what you said?

Here's what you said:

Yes, children are not strong enough to battle with adults and win.

You think adults in public school try to make kids into atheists?

---------------------------------------------------

Are you ready to show us a checkable source for that number? I'm beginning to think you made it up.

The Southern Baptist Council said it was 88%. And the Barna group had the number over 60% for people in their 20's. This quote states more studies "Researchers found between 69-94 percent of Christian youths forsake their faith after leaving high school. The Barna Group reported 64 percent loss after college graduation. The Assemblies of God conducted a 10-year study and found 75 percent loss of their students within one year of high school graduation, while the Southern Baptists found that number to be even higher at 88 percent loss. And Josh McDowell Ministries reports 94 percent fallout within two years of high school graduation."

Getting angry and calling names won't help any more than getting angry and lying helped you. Acknowledge that you lied, and go on. Or continue to dig a deeper hole for yourself.

Now, this debate tactic I like. You should keep it up in every post.

 

[The Barbarian]

I see you still haven't shown that I've said kindergarten teachers are wolves. You might as well just admit you lied about it.

Likewise, I notice you again declined to show where I said it was wrong to judge. I know you thought you were entitled to say I did, because I hadn't made a statment about it, but that's considered dishonest by Christians, at least.

And, of course, you also lied when you claimed I said that Christian teachers were required to teach Christian values. By way of excuse, you said that you thought it was true, which I suppose is your justification for lying about me saying it.

You aren't a very honest person. And you're not very smart, or you would have simply admitted you lied, and let it go. Nothing you can do or say will make it better, except to admit it.

I notice the numbers apply only to evangelical Christians. Regular Christians have much better retention than that. There are many reasons why this is true. Did you know evangelicals have higher divorce rates than orthodox Christians? In fact, evangelicals have higher divorce rates than atheists.

Might be worth thinking about.

 

[PKevman]

After reading the back and forth between Yorzhik and Barbarian, I think that trying to discuss a topic with Barbarian openly is like trying to teach a gorilla how to design websites.