Catholics Should Believe Their First Pope

turbosixx

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The question is exactly how we can KNOW (not assume) that we're correctly understanding the Bible, and whether or not our personal interpretations of Scripture carry any inherent infallible authority whatsoever. Back to Post #197.



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I don't look at it as interpretation but as in understanding or misunderstanding of the truth.

Paul seemed to think we could understand it.
Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

I think every individual should challenge what they understand to be truth and not take anyone's word. On the day of judgment, God will be looking at us to give account.
 

Cruciform

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The apostles ORAL traditions were oral until they were written in the complete revealed word.
Where is this assumption stated in the Bible? Where in Scripture does it state that the oral Tradition of the apostles and bishops of Christ's Church would somehow cease with the completion of the New Testament---which wasn't even canonized until the 4th century A.D.?

When I look at the history of the "one historic Church" I see zero resemblance to the Church in the bible.
Why would the Church after two millennia of growth and development much resemble the infant Church of the New Testament? After all, Jesus himself taught that it wouldn't (Mt. 13:31-32).



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Cruciform

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Paul seemed to think we could understand it. Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

Of course the early Christians could properly understand Paul's written document, seeing that they also had the apostles' oral teachings (Tradition) as a frame of reference for comprehending the authentic meaning of the Scriptures (and vice versa).

I think every individual should challenge what they understand to be truth and not take anyone's word. On the day of judgment, God will be looking at us to give account.

You haven't answered the question: Are your personal interpretations of the Bible in any way infallible and authoritative upon others, yes or no?



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turbosixx

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Where is this assumption stated in the Bible? Where in Scripture does it state that the oral Tradition of the apostles and bishops of Christ's Church would somehow cease with the completion of the New Testament---which wasn't even canonized until the 4th century A.D.?


1 Cor. 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Where does it state they would continue?


Why would the Church after two millennia of growth and development much resemble the infant Church of the New Testament? After all, Jesus himself taught that it wouldn't (Mt. 13:31-32).



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The only difference between the church we see in scripture and now should only be in the number that has been added to it over 2K years. If it looks different than what we see in scripture, then it's in conflict with scripture. What takes precedence, scripture or tradition?
 

turbosixx

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You haven't answered the question: Are your personal interpretations of the Bible in any way infallible and authoritative upon others, yes or no?



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No, I am not infallible and I have no authority other than in Christ. Who is infallible?
 

Cruciform

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1 Cor. 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
This text has to do with the purpose and function of the charismatic gifts of the Spirit, not with the communication of Divine Revelation (God's word). Thus, it simply does not support your assumption that Apostolic Tradition somehow ceased with the 4th-century canonization of the New Testament.

Where does it state they would continue?
Right here.

The only difference between the church we see in scripture and now should only be in the number that has been added to it over 2K years. If it looks different than what we see in scripture, then it's in conflict with scripture.
Again, these are merely assumptions that you have derived from your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

What takes precedence, scripture or tradition?
Given that both are the word of God (Divine Revelation), neither can take precedence over the other. Rather, each must account for the testimony of the other, as has been the case in Christ's one historic Catholic Church for the past two millennia.



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turbosixx

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This text has to do with the purpose and function of the charismatic gifts of the Spirit, not with the communication of Divine Revelation (God's word). Thus, it simply does not support your assumption that Apostolic Tradition somehow ceased with the 4th-century canonization of the New Testament.


Right here.


Again, these are merely assumptions that you have derived from your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.


Given that both are the word of God (Divine Revelation), neither can take precedence over the other. Rather, each must account for the testimony of the other, as has been the case in Christ's one historic Catholic Church for the past two millennia.



Gaudium de veritate,

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The rcc is in no way like the church in the NT. Sorry you won't see it. What will you do when they start accepting homos?
 

Cruciform

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No, I am not infallible and I have no authority other than in Christ.
Thank you for your honest answer. I am not infallible either. Therefore, we must acknowledge that our personal interpretations of the Bible are nothing more than the subjective opinions of men, and can never rise above that non-binding level of mere human opinion.

The question, then, is which of our chosen doctrinal traditions--- [1] your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, or [2] the ancient Catholic Church---is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and whose teachings therefore go beyond mere human opinion to the level of bindingly authoritative doctrine? Which is it, do you think?

Who is infallible?
The Magisterium (apostles/bishops) of Christ's one historic Church teach infallibly as a body when they do so regarding doctrine and morals. The interpretations of lay believers like you and me, by contrast, can never rise above the level of mere human opinion---the "traditions of men." Only to the extent that our interpretations comport with the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church can they be considered in any way binding upon believers.



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turbosixx

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Thank you for your honest answer. I am not infallible either. Therefore, we must acknowledge that our personal interpretations of the Bible are nothing more than the subjective opinions of men, and can never rise above that non-binding level of mere human opinion.

The question, then, is which of our chosen doctrinal traditions--- [1] your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, or [2] the ancient Catholic Church---is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and whose teachings therefore go beyond mere human opinion to the level of bindingly authoritative doctrine? Which is it, do you think?


The Magisterium (apostles/bishops) of Christ's one historic Church teach infallibly as a body when they do so regarding doctrine and morals. The interpretations of lay believers like you and me, by contrast, can never rise above the level of mere human opinion---the "traditions of men." Only to the extent that our interpretations comport with the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church can they be considered in any way binding upon believers.



Gaudium de veritate,

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I disagree with everything you have said. There are some things that are hard to understand but for the most part, the bible is written on an elementary level. As I have seen here, people read what they want to read into it and are not being honest with themselves. For example,
1 Pt. 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

All one has to do is read what it says to understand that water baptism saves us.

The rcc uses things other than the bible to control people and gain wealth and power.
 

Cruciform

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I'm not going to read your links, I've read them before, they're garbage.
No more so than your personal interpretations/applications of the Bible. Your transparent excuse for carefully avoiding relevant information, however, is noted.

How is the church I attend man made especially compared to yours.
I've already provided that information here. I've also observed that your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect can be traced in history only back as far as the 19th century. The one historic Catholic Church, however, is traceable directly back to Christ, the apostles, and the early Christian Church. This is a straightforward historical fact.

You have a mans name on your building, we don't.
Big deal. So do the Mormons. In any case, your point is rendered meaningless by the glaring fact that your preferred non-Catholic sect did not even exist until it was invented by mere men in the 19th century (!).

You have a man as the head of your church, we don't.
Jesus himself appointed a man---Peter---to guide and teach His one historic Church in His own name and by His very authority (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15). Your chosen man-made sect, therefore, is decidedly not that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and against which He declared that the powers of death would never prevail. Rather, it is a mere tradition of men.

You do what the man says, we don't.
Christ has always chosen to work his purposes through human beings, his one historic Church in particular. See just above.

You pray to men, we don't.
We "pray" to past saints in a very different sense in which we "pray" to God." Two quite different meanings of the term. Non-Catholics often miss this fact. See this.



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turbosixx

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No more so than your personal interpretations/applications of the Bible. Your transparent excuse for carefully avoiding relevant information, however, is noted.


I've already provided that information here. I've also observed that your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect can be traced in history only back as far as the 19th century. The one historic Catholic Church, however, is traceable directly back to Christ, the apostles, and the early Christian Church. This is a straightforward historical fact.


Big deal. So do the Mormons. In any case, your point is rendered meaningless by the glaring fact that your preferred non-Catholic sect did not even exist until it was invented by mere men in the 19th century (!).


Jesus himself appointed a man---Peter---to guide and teach His one historic Church in His own name and by His very authority (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15). Your chosen man-made sect, therefore, is decidedly not that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and against which He declared that the powers of death would never prevail. Rather, it is a mere tradition of men.


Christ has always chosen to work his purposes through human beings, his one historic Church in particular. See just above.


We "pray" to past saints in a very different sense in which we "pray" to God." Two quite different meanings of the term. Non-Catholics often miss this fact. See this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Tell me how the church I attend is not the church that Jesus died for. I need to know.
 

turbosixx

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Jesus himself appointed a man---Peter---to guide and teach His one historic Church in His own name and by His very authority (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15).



Gaudium de veritate,

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Those scriptures do not say Peter was appointed head and the evidence throughout does not support Peter as head.

Eph. 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

The only time Peter stands out compared to the others is when he is messing up.
 

Cruciform

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I disagree with everything you have said.
...just as your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect has taught you do do. And yet, given that your chosen sect was invented by mere men only in the 19th century (!), it is decidedly not Christ's one historic Church, and therefore its opinions carry no binding authority whatsoever. They are the mere opinions (traditions) of men.

There are some things that are hard to understand but for the most part, the bible is written on an elementary level.
Your assumption here is categorically refuted by the some 50,000+ competing and contradictory recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic denominations and sects in existence today, with more being concocted every week. Your claim simply does not work in practice, as the 500-year history of Protestant Sectarianism plainly demonstrates.

As I have seen here, people read what they want to read into it and are not being honest with themselves.
They believe that they read and interpret the Bible just as honestly and sincerely as you do, friend, and you have no basis whatsoever for claiming otherwise. And yet we have 50,000+ non-Catholic sects all disagreeing with one another over even central and defining doctrines of the faith, and all declaring "sola scriptura!" over their own idiosyncratic and utterly non-authoritative doctrinal opinions (you admitted that your interpretations are not infallible). What a hopelessly subjective interpretive chaos.

1 Pt. 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

All one has to do is read what it says to understand that water baptism saves us.
I agree with you on this point of doctrine. Yet, I only know that this interpretation is correct because it comports with the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church. Otherwise, it would merely be my own human opinion, of no more authority that any other tradition of men.

The rcc uses things other than the bible to control people and gain wealth and power.
Now go ahead and post your proof for this unsubstantiated assertion.



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Cruciform

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Tell me how the church I attend is not the church that Jesus died for. I need to know.
  • Jesus founded one historic Church---the Catholic Church.
  • Your supposed "church" (sect) was invented by mere men in the 19th century, and so simply cannot be that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself.
  • According to Catholic teaching, non-Catholics may be related to the one Catholic Church through belief in Jesus Christ and through their proper* baptism (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838).
  • It is this sacramental connection with Christ's one Catholic Church that makes non-Catholics true "Christians," and which makes their salvation possible. In short, all who are saved are in some sense part of the Catholic Church, whether they're aware of that fact or not.

Jesus Christ died for his Church (Body/Bride), and one must be sacramentally related to this Church in order to be considered a "Christian," and in order to be saved in the end.


__________
*That is, according to the Trinitarian formula taught in the New Testament.



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RevTestament

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You have a mans name on your building, we don't.
Big deal. So do the Mormons.

We do have the name of a man on our buildings - The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. It is not the church of Luther, nor Calvin, nor other man including Mormon.
In any case, your point is rendered meaningless by the glaring fact that your preferred non-Catholic sect did not even exist until it was invented by mere men in the 19th century (!).
Although not directed at me, the fact that a church was organized later, does not make it false. Teachings make a church false. The fact that all the world would be taught incorrectly and fooled by the false prophet doesn't seem to hit home with you that the original church will go apostate. It is a matter of scripture that the day would turn to night after Christ left. Therefore, the interpretation of an earthly church meeting the prophecy of the gates of hell not prevailing against the keys of revelation given to Peter simply cannot be.
Jesus himself appointed a man---Peter---to guide and teach His one historic Church in His own name and by His very authority (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15). Your chosen man-made sect, therefore, is decidedly not that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and against which He declared that the powers of death would never prevail. Rather, it is a mere tradition of men.
Christ did not found a church in Rome. Peter did along with MANY other cities in which the apostles founded churches for Christ. Nothing of biblical record gave Rome more authority than any other city or bishop in the church. By the time of Constantine, the bishop of Rome was merely one of some 1300 bishoprics throughout the empire - some of which were also founded through Peter.
Next argument...
 

turbosixx

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  • Jesus founded one historic Church---the Catholic Church.
  • Your supposed "church" (sect) was invented by mere men in the 19th century, and so simply cannot be that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself.
  • According to Catholic teaching, non-Catholics may be related to the one Catholic Church through belief in Jesus Christ and through their proper* baptism (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838).
  • It is this sacramental connection with Christ's one Catholic Church that makes non-Catholics true "Christians," and which makes their salvation possible. In short, all who are saved are in some sense part of the Catholic Church, whether they're aware of that fact or not.

Jesus Christ died for his Church (Body/Bride), and one must be sacramentally related to this Church in order to be considered a "Christian," and in order to be saved in the end.


__________
*That is, according to the Trinitarian formula taught in the New Testament.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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We will never agree because we use different things for authority. I use God's word, you use mans.

"According to Catholic teaching"
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838
 
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