Catholics Should Believe Their First Pope

turbosixx

New member
I have the Bible, Catholic doctrine and recorded history and use a little logic.

Maybe you can answer a question I've been pondering. Why does one need more than what is contained in the canon? Is there not enough in the canon to, understand and believe the gospel, become a Christian and understand how to live as a Christian?

I have been a Christian for almost 40 years and know the bible very well. I have never found the bible lacking in any area.
 

Sancocho

New member
Maybe you can answer a question I've been pondering. Why does one need more than what is contained in the canon? Is there not enough in the canon to, understand and believe the gospel, become a Christian and understand how to live as a Christian?

I have been a Christian for almost 40 years and know the bible very well. I have never found the bible lacking in any area.

I am not here to have you question your faith in Jesus Christ, on the contrary bro.

I am here to do the will of the Father enabled by the Son and I only seek the Truth.
 

turbosixx

New member
I am not here to have you question your faith in Jesus Christ, on the contrary bro.

I am here to do the will of the Father enabled by the Son and I only seek the Truth.

I want to understand the truth and therefore I want to challenge my understanding of truth. If the rcc has the truth, I want to know it.
 

Sancocho

New member
I want to understand the truth and therefore I want to challenge my understanding of truth. If the rcc has the truth, I want to know it.

I recommend researching claims yourself. I did most of my research with the Bible and information online.

God bless you. Your love of Christ impresses me.
 

desiringGod7

New member
we listen to francis

he has the power to bind and loose
..he's talking about the same Francis who recently kissed the Qur'an, and claimed it to be the same message as the Holy Bible.

He also claimed that Mohammed, Jesus, God, Allah.. These are all just words that describe the same divine entity..

Francis is confused, as is anyone who would blindly follow him.

When the head of your church embraces Islam as equal to Christ, or even a suitable alternative that will get you to heaven (along with an athiest following hisconscience), it's time to find a new church..
 

Sancocho

New member
..he's talking about the same Francis who recently kissed the Qur'an, and claimed it to be the same message as the Holy Bible.

He also claimed that Mohammed, Jesus, God, Allah.. These are all just words that describe the same divine entity..

Francis is confused, as is anyone who would blindly follow him.

When the head of your church embraces Islam as equal to Christ, or even a suitable alternative that will get you to heaven (along with an athiest following hisconscience), it's time to find a new church..

No one should say the pope is perfect. That being said I would like to see references that support the claims you make.
 

Cruciform

New member
"16th-century notion" Once again, MEN not scripture. I could care less what men think, all I care about is what God thinks. I go with the first century facts, found in scripture, not notions.
2 Tim. 3: 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul here states that "Scripture"---for him, the Old Testament---is "profitable" (or "useful") in furnishing the man of God. Nothing whatsoever here about the Bible being numerically sufficient or "all we need." The fact is that you have followed the opinions of 16th-century Protestant men in assuming the doctrine of sola scriptura to be biblical and true. But it is neither.

The Mormons, do not use scripture for their authority, they use the book of mormon.
You're missing my point. If you appeal to the name of your "church" ("Church of Christ") for your supposed legitimacy, then Mormonism must also be legitimate on the same basis. If not, then your appeal means nothing at all, and is simply irrelevant. (Incidentally, you rely on the opinions of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect every bit as much as Mormons rely on the Book of Mormon. Both of you, in this sense, follow the teachings of men.)

They ADDED mans authority...
See just above.

There is only one church established at Pentecost...
Yes, and that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself has, since the end of the 1st century, been commonly known as "the Catholic Church." This is a straightforward historical fact.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
We have one high priest not invented by man.
Yes, "one high priest" who founded a single historic Church in 33 A.D. through which to guide and teach the faithful until his Second Coming (Mt. 28:18-20; Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Jn. 4:6), and who equated his Church's teaching with his very own teachings---they are one and the same---in truth and authority (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

turbosixx

New member
Paul here states that "Scripture"---for him, the Old Testament---is "profitable" (or "useful") in furnishing the man of God. Nothing whatsoever here about the Bible being numerically sufficient or "all we need." The fact is that you have followed the opinions of 16th-century Protestant men in assuming the doctrine of sola scriptura to be biblical and true. But it is neither.


You're missing my point. If you appeal to the name of your "church" ("Church of Christ") for your supposed legitimacy, then Mormonism must also be legitimate on the same basis. If not, then your appeal means nothing at all, and is simply irrelevant. (Incidentally, you rely on the opinions of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect every bit as much as Mormons rely on the Book of Mormon. Both of you, in this sense, follow the teachings of men.)


See just above.


Yes, and that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself has, since the end of the 1st century, been commonly known as "the Catholic Church." This is a straightforward historical fact.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So you are saying the canon insufficient as God's word to, understand and believe the gospel, become a Christian and know how to live as a Christian?
 

turbosixx

New member
You're missing my point. If you appeal to the name of your "church" ("Church of Christ") for your supposed legitimacy, then Mormonism must also be legitimate on the same basis. If not, then your appeal means nothing at all, and is simply irrelevant. (Incidentally, you rely on the opinions of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect every bit as much as Mormons rely on the Book of Mormon. Both of you, in this sense, follow the teachings of men.)

Your missing my point, by adding "latter day saints" and calling themselves Mormon, they are separating themselves from other groups within Christianity. They are hyphenated Christians causing division.

Are their different types of Christians in the body?

Baptist-Christian
Catholic-Christian
Mormon-Christian
 

Cruciform

New member
So you are saying the canon insufficient as God's word...
The Bible is entirely sufficient to function as God's written word. However, the written texts are not the entirety of God's word. The Church's Apostolic Tradition is also "the word of God." In short, Divine Revelation (God's word) consists of both Scripture (written) and Tradition (unwritten), just as even the New Testament itself affirms (2 Thess. 2:15).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
Your missing my point, by adding "latter day saints" and calling themselves Mormon, they are separating themselves from other groups within Christianity. They are hyphenated Christians causing division.
Sorry, you're going to have to do a whole lot more than simply appealing to the name of your recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect* in order to legitimize your doctrinal claims.



__________
*Your chosen sect, for example, was established by men, and is traceable only back to the 19th century.
 

turbosixx

New member
The Bible is entirely sufficient to function as God's written word. However, the written texts are not the entirety of God's word. The Church's Apostolic Tradition is also "the word of God." In short, Divine Revelation (God's word) consists of both Scripture (written) and Tradition (unwritten), just as even the New Testament itself affirms (2 Thess. 2:15).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Here is my dilemma with that. I understand that while the church was growing in the 1st century they didn't have the complete written word. They had bits until all the bits came together. They shared what they had and what they didn't have in writing they had learned and passed along until all was revealed.

1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The church in it's infancy need gifts of prophecy and knowledge to help it grow and become established until all was revealed.

How am I to know what outside of the canon is inspired?
 

turbosixx

New member
Sorry, you're going to have to do a whole lot more than simply appealing to the name of your recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect* in order to legitimize your doctrinal claims.



__________
*Your chosen sect, for example, was established by men, and is traceable only back to the 19th century.

I'm appealing to common sense. Try and take the filters off and think about what I'm saying.

If I take the bible, teach someone the gospel and they believe and are baptized, what are they added to?

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
 

Cruciform

New member
I'm appealing to common sense. Try and take the filters off and think about what I'm saying.
I would say precisely the same thing to you.

If I take the bible, teach someone the gospel...
QUESTION: Are your personal interpretations of the Bible in any way infallible and authoritative upon others? Or are the doctrinal opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect somehow infallibly binding upon others?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

turbosixx

New member
I would say precisely the same thing to you.


QUESTION: Are your personal interpretations of the Bible in any way infallible and authoritative upon others? Or are the doctrinal opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect somehow infallibly binding upon others?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So what are you saying, we can't understand the bible?
 

Cruciform

New member
How am I to know what outside of the canon is inspired?
Only Scripture can be called "inspired" (2 Tim. 3:16). However, a message need not be inspired in order to be considered infallibly true and authoritative. As has already been observed, Apostolic Oral Tradition is also the infallible word of God (1 Thess. 2:13).

To answer your question, we know the content of Divine Revelation (God's word) in the same way we know the content of the biblical canon itself---from the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
So what are you saying, we can't understand the bible?
The question is exactly how we can KNOW (not assume) that we're correctly understanding the Bible, and whether or not our personal interpretations of Scripture carry any inherent infallible authority whatsoever. Back to Post #197.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

turbosixx

New member
Only Scripture can be called "inspired" (2 Tim. 3:16). However, a message need not be inspired in order to be considered infallibly true and authoritative. As has already been observed, Apostolic Oral Tradition is also the infallible word of God (1 Thess. 2:13).

To answer your question, we know the content of Divine Revelation (God's word) in the same way we know the content of the biblical canon itself---from the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

The apostles ORAL traditions were oral until they were written in the complete revealed word.

When I look at the history of the "one historic church" I see zero resemblance to the church in the bible.
 
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