Catholicism: The Mother of All Religions

R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
meshak said:
basically, they are the same.
Click to expand...


Not for this Christian.

Catholicism is the religion of you must, you must, you must and if you don't you are anathema.

It is a religion of works. To be a Catholic is to be under the law and under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

They are not trusting in Christ, they are trusting in themselves and the Catholic church.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Hey Jerry.

I disagree.

First, notice that the passage you cited doesn't say what you said it does. It doesn't say that anyone is saved by the name of Mary instead of by Jesus. Read that more carefully.

Second, if we read the encyclical in its entirety we can see that Leo isn't saying that Mary is another savior. He is saying that salvation comes through her because Jesus Christ the Savior came to the world through her. We can know this because in the very sentence prior to the one you quoted he says that it is due to her faith and her "Yes" to God that she "brought 'the author of faith' into this world...". In other words, we obtain salvation through her because Jesus, the Savior came to us through her.

That should be no problem for Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor. 9:22: "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

Is Paul another Savior? Are we saved by the name of Paul? He said that he saves some, after all. Is Paul a heretic? Is Paul blaspheming?

No. He means the same thing Leo did. Paul can save some because it is through him that some can come to know Jesus. In that same sense we can say that our salvation comes through Mary because it was through her that the Savior came into the world.

So no. Leo wasn't committing blasphemy any more than Paul was.

Third, not everything a Pope thinks, says, or does is infallible. There are indications in this encyclical that, even though it carries the Pope's authority, it is up to each believer to decide if they want to have devotion to Mary. Elsewhere in this writing he states: "Let each one weigh for himself, moreover, how fitting is this practice and how fruitful to himself;..."

Fourth, the Catechism of the Catholic Church makes its teaching pretty clear in paragraph 432:

"The name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son...It is the divine name that alone brings salvation...so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

The Church does not teach what you say it does.

And you are misreading Leo's letter from 1895.

Peace.
Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor and get out of that church and seek truth.



Sent from my iPad using TOL
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
All religions have evolved out of Catholicism, even Calvinism and Lutheranism.

There is no mention in the Bible of a church in Rome. In the book of Romans Paul did not write to a church in Rome. He wrote to the believers in Rome, Romans 1:7. When John wrote the book of Revelation, he wrote it to the seven churches in Asia, Revelation 1:11. There is no mention of a church in Rome. There is no mention in the Bible of Peter going to a church in Rome. Revelation 17:1-18, describes what may be the Catholic church.

How can we know if a church is really a church of God? John encourages us to try the Spirits to see if they be of God, 1 John 4:1-6. If it is a church of God, it will uphold and teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only means of ones salvation.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" Acts 4:12.

Not by Calvinism, Not by Catholicism, Not by any religion. Jesus and Jesus alone, is our savior and is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Catholicism, Calvinism and many other religions do not uphold the Gospel as man's only means of salvation. No one will enter heaven that has not been justified by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel you must be put to death with Christ, Romans 6:3 and be resurrected with Christ Romans 6:4. So as to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23 and walk in newness of life.

The Catholic church does not have a Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. In the Catholic church you must do works. Like Calvinist, they do not believe that... "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Which is the Gospel, Romans 10:17. They believe that good works causes one to be born again, kind of like Calvinism. No Christ or Gospel needed. They just get zapped with the Holy Spirit and are born again. No one is born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. To be saved you must believe that Jesus has reconciled you unto God by his life, death and resurrection.
Click to expand...

Don't forget pateism which teaches mans freewill is the Saviour of sinners.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Is this an example?

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures...
Click to expand...

No.

But this is: "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." (Acts 20:7 NKJV)

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Christianity began with Moses, but Judaism began many years later with the destruction of the first temple. Judaism doesn't need a temple nor any kind of blood sacrifice.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Christianity began with Moses...even though Christ wasn't born yet? Judaism began AFTER Christianity?? Are you sure you don't have those backwards?

It was Christianity that built the first temple and Judaism arose AFTER it was destroyed? Are you sure?

And yes, Judaism did need a Temple to worship in. The temple in Jerusalem. After replacing the tent in the desert, of course.

When did Judaism decide they didn't need a temple anymore? I hadn't heard that.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Christians? Did you say Christians? How long has the trinity belief been around?

In Sumerian mythology and later in the religions of Assyria and Babylonia, Anu (also An—from Sumerian An = sky, heaven) was a sky-god and the chief deity, who ruled over the highest spiritual realm. He was the son of the first pair of gods, Ansar and Kisar, and the descendant of the primordial beings Apsu and Tiamat. Anu was described as the father of the 50 "great gods," as the god of heaven, lord of constellations, king of gods, and the father of spirits and demons. He was part of the most important trinity of deities, together with Enlil and Ea (Enki), who governed the spiritual heaven, the sky and earth, and the waters, respectively.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Anu​

OK, so the Catholics changed the names, big deal.
Click to expand...

Sorry. That is not what Christians mean by Trinity. We mean 3 persons in ONE GOD. We are monotheistic.

You are talking about polytheism, many gods.
And you are talking about mythology. And 3 different false gods being referred to as a trinity is not the same thing as the Christian Trinity.

But I will say that I've read a book that suggests that even the most ancient of pagan religions had shadows and hints of the True Trinity that was to be revealed through Jesus Christ.

So yeah, 3 persons, ONE GOD. That is unique to Christianity and having multiple gods that are called a trinity is nowhere near the same thing.

And, by the way, the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ is a part of reality....not mythology.

Peace.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Not sure what your point is here.
Click to expand...

The point here is that Jesus was subject to the law he gave through Moses.

Leviticus 23:9-11 And the LORD [YHVH] spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted on your behalf, on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.'"

Let's say for the sake of discussion that the day after the Sabbath would be the first day of the week.

So what does this have to do with Christ's resurrection?

Paul explained, "But now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." (1 Corinthians 15:20)

Paul continues in verse 23: "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."

Christ is the first of the firstfruits to be born of the Father.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Jesus said the Father is Spirit and humans must be born of the Spirit.

Was Mary Spirit or was she human?
Click to expand...

Could I get some biblical verses to look at to see what you are referring to first please?

Also, which of the three points do you disagree with?

Do you disagree that Mary was Jesus' mother?
Do you disagree that Jesus is God?
Do you disagree that Mary is the Mother of God?

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Robert Pate said:
Not for this Christian.

Catholicism is the religion of you must, you must, you must and if you don't you are anathema.
Click to expand...

Oh dear. Here we go again.

Robert, do you mean like when Jesus says: "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’" in John 3:7? (NKJV)

It is a religion of works. To be a Catholic is to be under the law and under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

They are not trusting in Christ, they are trusting in themselves and the Catholic church.
Click to expand...

False again. Complete trust is in Christ and the Church He founded. It is His Church, after all.

Peace.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Bard_the_Bowman said:
But this is: "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." (Acts 20:7 NKJV)
Click to expand...

Good point.

But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Jesus was raised on the day after the Sabbath in accordance with the Torah which came long before his resurrection. Yeah, long before.
Click to expand...

Ok. And yet Christianity didn't begin until AFTER His Resurrection. Paul even says without the Resurrection, forget about it...Christians are to be the most pitied of all peoples.

But the Torah, which is part of the Jewish scriptures, came long before.

So Judaism precedes Christianity.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Good point.

But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.
Click to expand...

Hey Jamie,

Wow. You've got some stuff in there I'll have to sit down tonight and really think about. (No time now..leaving soon). Thanks.

I don't think that Acts 20 is the only reference to worshipping on the first day of the week or Lord's Day.

1 Cor. 16:2 seems to indicate that as well and Rev. 1:10, and John 20. Also, the Didache is a first century document (but not inspired Scripture) but it also indicates that Christians worshipped on the First Day of the Week.

It sure makes sense to me. After all, it is Jesus' Resurrection that is the difference-maker in the world. Without that..if that isn't true... forget about it.

I can see why Christians would want to worship on that day.

I'll read your information more closely later.

Peace.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Sorry. That is not what Christians mean by Trinity. We mean 3 persons in ONE GOD. We are monotheistic.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is one God. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Cor 12:12-14 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.

The term "Most High" does not limit the number of those who are less high, this includes Christ.

The term "Supreme Being" does not preclude the existence of lesser beings.

God is a family. We can think of God as the family of God: Father, Son, Bride.

One family.

E pluribus unum.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top