ECT Catalog of Pentecostal scandals

[lifeisgood]

True, and I don't discount the gospels.

I know you don't.

It is only that this insistence, from some, not only here on TOL, but personally have encountered some that keep on hammering me that without Paul's gospel no one can be saved, which for me is not true.

Let me talk about me personally. I never heard of Paul's gospel when I heard THE Gospel. All I kept on hearing from that preacher was 'you're a sinner,' 'you're going to hell in a hand basket,' 'Jesus is God' 'Jesus loves you so much He died on a cruel cross so that God can accept you,' 'He is alive sitting at the right hand of the Father,' 'if you accept Him and what He did, He will cleanse you in His precious blood,' 'He will save you,' 'you will be with Him someday.'

I knew, instinctively, that he was right. I felt something on the inside convicting me with what I was hearing (didn't know anything about the HS either) and I said 'yes, Lord.' Didn't hear church bells ringing or anything, but I KNEW, I KNEW, I KNEW that something had happened inside of me, not outside, inside, even before the altar call was made.

And I knew absolutely nothing about M,M,L,J or Paul's gospel.

Now, after, when I started learning about what had happened to me in that little building, that there was a book called The Bible, that there were Disciples, that that was a Holy Spirit, etc., and then I reached Paul's epistles and then everything made sense.

Paul's epistles is not, IMO, for salvation, per se, it is mostly to teach the already saved how to live for God, how to get up when you fall, how to live the victorious life that Jesus promised. And that takes time to understand and accept.

Watch the response from some.
It always amazes me.

Thank you for listening.

 

[Nick M]

I knew, instinctively, that he was right.

Everybody does. Agnostics are pathetic liars.

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

 

[lifeisgood]

No, use your own mind, that's what it's there for. Just find someone before the start of Paul's preaching ministry that was saved by hearing and believing Christ had died for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification, without works but simply on the basis of faith in the Gospel of the grace of God.

But I never heard about Paul's gospel when that preacher was telling me I was a sinner, was going directly to hell on a hand basked, Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, He loves you, He died in your place, He will save you, He will cleanse you, He will give you life, Come to Him and you will start living. I knew that what that preacher was saying was true, there was something happening inside of me while those words were resonating in my ears.

At that moment I didn't hear about M,M,L,J or Paul's gospel.

All I heard was about Jesus is God, Jesus loves you, Jesus died for you, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father right now, and if you, lifeisgood, accept that you are wrong and He is right, He will save you.

And I agreed with THE Gospel I heard and I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that at that moment, He saved me and I have never been the same again.

Now, when someone gave me a Bible and I started reading I saw that everything hinged on DBR, but I had no understanding of its meaning. Paul gave me that understading.

But that I can see DBR in M,M,L,J. Yes, I can.
Understanding? No. I need Paul for that.

Had I died immediately after that sermon, I would have gone to be with the Lord, had that happened I would have died without the understanding, but I would have been accepted by the Beloved, for I know He had saved me.

I know the person I was when I entered that building and when I exited that building a new lifeisgood had emerged. Everything was different, but I had no understanding. Paul gives me the understanding.

I was saved when I heard Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary for me. No understanding, but I was saved, no question about it.

Now, the understanding came when I started reading Paul's epistles many years after the Lord saving me, no question about it.

 

[lifeisgood]

Everybody does. Agnostics are pathetic liars.

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

So, now I am an agnostic?
I apologize if I misunderstand.

 

[ebenz47037]

This is what happens when people worship the creature (the pastor) instead of the Creator. They put their pastors up on pedestals. God allows it for only so long before He knocks the pedestal out from under the pastors.

I am a member of the Assembly of God church. And, I've watched a lot of pastors fall since I was a kid. I just couldn't understand why people were so surprised that a man, after being held up to such high adoration, would fall and ministries would fall apart.

 

[RBBI]

You're engaging in what C.S. Lewis termed bulverism: telling someone WHY they're wrong rather than refuting point by point THAT they're wrong.

No, not at all. I am more than happy to tell you WHY you're wrong, and as I pointed out I did so already in another thread. I will accommodate you as soon as I get the time. Peace

 

[RBBI]

This is what happens when people worship the creature (the pastor) instead of the Creator. They put their pastors up on pedestals. God allows it for only so long before He knocks the pedestal out from under the pastors.

I am a member of the Assembly of God church. And, I've watched a lot of pastors fall since I was a kid. I just couldn't understand why people were so surprised that a man, after being held up to such high adoration, would fall and ministries would fall apart.

You hit the nail at least half on the head. The other half is, the pattern they built it according to, was wrong to begin with. Peace

 

[andyc]

This is what happens when people worship the creature (the pastor) instead of the Creator. They put their pastors up on pedestals. God allows it for only so long before He knocks the pedestal out from under the pastors.

I am a member of the Assembly of God church. And, I've watched a lot of pastors fall since I was a kid. I just couldn't understand why people were so surprised that a man, after being held up to such high adoration, would fall and ministries would fall apart.

That's right.
I was raised in an AOG church, and for me its so obvious to spot a minister who is a fake, or one who may be sincere but is far too unbalanced when it comes to prosperity and seed faith.
The desire for wealth leads to a twisting of scripture which is easy to discern, or the desperate need for funds leads to a biased interpretation of scripture verses.

For example, when a minister harps on about the widow giving all she had, they ignore Paul saying to not give to the extent that the giver goes without. But its easy to manipulate the weak and inexperienced, using emotional pleas, soft music, and promises based on biased reasoning.

Then some of these victims end up out of the pentecostal church and become skeptical about everything.

 

[lifeisgood]

This is what happens when people worship the creature (the pastor) instead of the Creator. They put their pastors up on pedestals. God allows it for only so long before He knocks the pedestal out from under the pastors.

I am a member of the Assembly of God church. And, I've watched a lot of pastors fall since I was a kid. I just couldn't understand why people were so surprised that a man, after being held up to such high adoration, would fall and ministries would fall apart.

Paul also fell. Abraham also. Jacob, Isaac. David, he was even a murderer, etc., etc., etc. ALL, in a sense, pastors of the church of their days.

The difference between them who fell THEN and them who fall NOW, is that then, God restored them when they repented, immediately.

Now, the Church prescribes two years, or more, of not preaching, psychological counseling (as if Satan has any power over the saved), get out of the church; don't associate with them, you can preach on the street corner, but not in our perfectly, perfect collective, etc. Translation: 'Ta hell with the fallen ones.

Paul teaches the how of being restored.
The Church has written its own Bible and instead of restoring, the Church condemns.

The Church needs to be saved.

 

[ebenz47037]

Paul also fell. Abraham also. Jacob, Isaac. David, he was even a murderer, etc., etc., etc. ALL, in a sense, pastors of the church of their days.

The difference between them who fell THEN and them who fall NOW, is that then, God restored them when they repented, immediately.

Now, the Church prescribes two years, or more, of not preaching, psychological counseling (as if Satan has any power over the saved), get out of the church; don't associate with them, you can preach on the street corner, but not in our perfectly, perfect collective, etc. Translation: 'Ta hell with the fallen ones.

Paul teaches the how of being restored.
The Church has written its own Bible and instead of restoring, the Church condemns.

The Church needs to be saved.

Also, people need to remember that we live in a "It's not my fault!" society. Everyone blames their shortcomngs on something else. It's never about personal responsibility anymore. When we make a mistake, we need to own up to it and try to fix the problem with God's help. We shouldn't be trying to live up to the standards others hold us to. We should set high standards for ourselves and do our best to live up to them.

 

[musterion]

You can't restore the unrepentant and scandal-ridden Pentecostals are notoriously unrepentant. Swaggart appeared to, but only after the story broke and he'd told the AoG to pound sand. Jim Bakker crawled under a courtroom table and screamed about demons. Paul Crouch relished the idea of shooting critics who he said were blocking God's bridges.

 

[Arsenios]

Feel free to list where the article is in error.

Here:

Joh 8:3-11

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him
a woman taken in adultery;
and when they had set her in the midst,
They say unto him,

Master, this woman was taken in adultery,
in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us,
that such should be stoned:
but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him,
that they might have to accuse him.

But Jesus stooped down,
and with his finger wrote on the ground,
as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him,
He lifted up himself, and said unto them,
He that is without sin among you,
let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down,
and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it,
being convicted by their own conscience,
went out one by one,
beginning at the eldest,
even unto the last:
and Jesus was left alone,
and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself,
and saw none but the woman,
He said unto her,

Woman, where are those thine accusers?
Hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord.
And Jesus said unto her,
Neither do I condemn thee:
Go, and sin no more.

Finger-pointers suffer ontological condemnation...
When Christ's finger points to them in the dust...
With nary a word of condemnation...

 

[ebenz47037]

You can't restore the unrepentant and scandal-ridden Pentecostals are notoriously unrepentant. Swaggart appeared to, but only after the story broke and he'd told the AoG to pound sand. Jim Bakker crawled under a courtroom table and screamed about demons. Paul Crouch relished the idea of shooting critics who he said were blocking God's bridges.

Well, if I remember correctly, I was about 12 when Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker were exposed. And, even though I read the article, I don't remember when Paul Crouch was exposed. But, like I said, people shouldn't put their pastors up on pedestals to begin with. They should focus on God, not the men who claim to be men of God.

Sure. I'm disappointed when I hear about a pastor falling in any manner. But, I realize that they are men and that I shouldn't be worshiping them.

 

[john w]

How can you talk that way about Dr. Breen after the inspiring message he gave us all that Sunday?

I apologize, Mayor. I was in too much of a hurry, when I posted that rabble rousing reply. Much obliged, squirt.

 

[Arsenios]

Finger-pointers suffer ontological condemnation...
When Christ's finger points to them in the dust...
With nary a word of condemnation...

Condemnation, no.

They departed from their condemnation of her...

If you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you...

Exhortation, yes.

Her condemners were not exhorted...

She was...

He told her to sin no more, and this specifically to her own sin she exhibited.

And her condemners departed
muzzled by their own sins...

Christ did not condemn her at all...

Arsenios

 

[musterion]

Well, if I remember correctly, I was about 12 when Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker were exposed. And, even though I read the article, I don't remember when Paul Crouch was exposed. But, like I said, people shouldn't put their pastors up on pedestals to begin with. They should focus on God, not the men who claim to be men of God.

Sure. I'm disappointed when I hear about a pastor falling in any manner. But, I realize that they are men and that I shouldn't be worshiping them.

I don't disagree with you. The point here is, there seems to be some ungodly pride and arrogance inherent in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements frrom the get go, which make their leading figures unwilling to confess when caught in sin, and their followers very reluctant to call their leaders out for their sin, whatever it is. Are they alone in this? Of course not. But it really stands out with them, if for no other reason than the publicity that Pentecostal preachers have sought over the decades.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If all you're looking for is disagreement with the article, you won't find much with me. The one part that I think is dubious, is this paragraph :



This is a critical paragraph because he's trying to justify pointing the spotlight on Charismatics specifically. He's trying to make a case against the movement and make a quick connection between behavior and doctrine. The above paragraph lumps all Charismatics together as being showmen and being too free with their claims about being "in the Spirit". This simply isn't true. And many Pentecostals would reject most (if not all) of the people on the list as being those to avoid. Cloud claims a charitable attitude towards Pentecostals and fails to make a clear distinction between Pentecostalism and the Charismatic circus that has grabbed most of the attention. And the link between this chaos and the teaching can be made - but unless you are going to clearly define the issues with the teaching, this sort of introduction only serves to inflame. It's emotional rhetoric and broadbrush sweeping. But the details of each individual were - as far as I could see - correct.

What surprised me was that he didn't include Hinn's admitted spiritism in following the direction of Kathryn Kuhlman he had in a vision (where she spoke to him) and his visit to Aimee Semple McPherson's grave where he says he got more "anointing" (because it was so powerful on her even in death). That's a bigger red flag than any sexual misconduct (which, as Cloud points out, is found in every denomination).

Excellent balance

 

[Totton Linnet]

I don't disagree with you. The point here is, there seems to be some ungodly pride and arrogance inherent in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements frrom the get go, which make their leading figures unwilling to confess when caught in sin, and their followers very reluctant to call their leaders out for their sin, whatever it is. Are they alone in this? Of course not. But it really stands out with them, if for no other reason than the publicity that Pentecostal preachers have sought over the decades.

Pentecostals and Charismatics are assembly based, if they submit to anybody it is to their pastors....not tv stars

 

[musterion]

Pentecostals and Charismatics are assembly based, if they submit to anybody it is to their pastors....not tv stars

Prosperity gospel.

"Heresy hunters."

"Quit blocking God's bridges or I'll shoot you if God don't."

"Holy Ghost machine gun...blow your head off."

"Touch not God's anointed!"

Your people came up with all that and made the false teachers who preach it unbelievably rich.

 

[Danoh]

To be honest, I don't think he is. I just think he's being hamhanded when it comes to distinguishing between the Charismatic movement that has capitalized on poor discernment and the Pentecostal beliefs that are more committed to scriptural truth. When you read the list of issues/people themselves, I think it is clear that he is not trying to advance an agenda other than full disclosure to sound the alarm. The problem is, I think the paragraph I quoted is the trumpet making an uncertain sound. The call to battle needs to be clear and concise.

Now it's obvious he doesn't believe Pentecostalism is biblical, but just like he doesn't agree with Calvinism, he has no problem counting Calvinists as brothers in Christ. Likewise Pentecostals. His measuring stick is scripture. But the issue he is raising is more complicated, I think, than he wants to make it. Maybe because it requires too much detail to flesh it out and people don't want to read that long. Maybe because he doesn't have the sophistication to do so. I just don't know that. But he doesn't have the imbalance that characterizes a lot of ministries that supposedly want to guard the faith from wolves.

Pentecostal and or Charismatic are the polar opposite of being committed to scriptural truth.

Since when is any form of Mysticism (the supposed "divine" via the senses, etc.) related in any way, shape, or form to "scriptural truth"?

It matters not how "committed" any of them are if they are off-base if they "walk...by sight."