You are beginning to sound like Mr Religion. One big smoke screen. When the scripture says world, it means the whole world. Unless it says some of the world. There is no scripture that says Jesus died for some of the world.
CALVINISM: The Belief that God Predestinates People to Hell Before Birth.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
You are beginning to sound like Mr Religion. One big smoke screen. When the scripture says world, it means the whole world. Unless it says some of the world. There is no scripture that says Jesus died for some of the world.
fishrovmen
Active member
So if you go to a wedding reception buffet, and someone asks if you had the ham or the turkey, and you say "the turkey"; does that AUTOMATICALLY mean that you ate (not only the edible parts) but the WHOLE turkey?
fishrovmen
Active member
If smoke screen means basic elementary English, then yes, it's a smoke screen. Try to inhale the smoke deeply and hold it in for maximum absorption.
We are not talking about eating turkey. We are talking about whether or not Jesus atoned for the sins of the WHOLE world.
Proof that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world is that God accepted Jesus back into heaven and made him both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.
The Bible does not actually, but somehow you think God is more cruel by simply, in his full authority in accordance to scripture, created beings destined for swift and quick destruction (never to exist again) so that he may demonstrate his power and judgment, as opposed to your teaching that God no authority over his own creation and will send whoever does not do his will to burn for all eternity endlessly?
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fishrovmen
Active member
We are discussing basic elementary English. If our common language is not understood, how can conversation take place?
fishrovmen
Active member
That verse that you ripped out of the book of Acts says nothing about atonement, nor sins, nor whole world, nor acceptance.
Yes it does actually. Remember that was God's only begotten Son dying on the cross for the sins of the world. Reject that and maybe you deserve to go to hell.
No doubt about it you believe that God is a ruthless tyrant. God does NOTHING outside of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature and character.
fishrovmen
Active member
John 12:19, does that mean every single man woman and child, even from other countries, including the Pharisees?
Which one is more cruel, dying being burned alive or being burned alive eternally without dying?
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Another stupid example.
Jesus claims to be the savior of the world. Here it is right from the mouth of Jesus.
"I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" John 12:47.
Jesus saves the world by defeating sin, death and the devil.
fishrovmen
Active member
Another smoke screen, non answer deflection.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Want to actually understand predestination? Ask a Calvinist.
Want to actually understand predestination? Ask a Calvinist.
Unless on is a heretical hyper-Calvinist, those so destined for eternal punishment were contemplated by God as already fallen in Adam (a fallen lump of clay). They were not contemplated by God to be morally neutral. Thus, the justice of God in condemning those seen as already fallen in Adam is not impugned by this doctrine. It is only when the doctrine is mis-characterized by the likes of Robert Pate that questions arise, and are easily answered.
Rather than assuming you know what the Calvinist believes, if one wants to actually understand predestination as viewed by the Calvinist or the Reformed, one should just ask bona fide Calvinists or Reformed...or at least quote from their primary confessional standards, as in the Westminster, Belgic, Heidelberg or Helvetic confessions. After all, it is not a topic that any Calvinist or Reformed is afraid to answer sincere questions about honestly. Unfortunately, most just take the tactic of hyperbolic vitriol and await an answer. It as if persons are afraid of being seen as sympathetic to actually ask an honest question.
For a more detailed understanding of the sin of Adam and its impacts upon all his progeny, see:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...cs-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007#post4559007
In general, if one denies the full impacts of the sin of Adam, then discussion about matters such as predestination is fruitless. Deniers of original sin desperately cling to Rome's notions of prevenient grace. It is actually embarrassing to see a Protestant upholding Romanist thinking, especially given this year marks the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. The Reformers are rolling over in their graves at the nonsense that now passes for Protestantism we see in the likes of Robert's repetitive posts.
To better understand how the decree of God is viewed related to this topic see:
http://www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm
I wonder how much you actually understand about salvation, Robert. Take the test:
http://www.challies.com/resources/quiz-doctrine-salvation
How did you do? :AMR:
AMR
Want to actually understand predestination? Ask a Calvinist.
Not unexpectedly, Robert's latest blog article is but more evidence of his numerous erroneous views, especially concerning his hobby-horse, Calvinism.
Unless on is a heretical hyper-Calvinist, those so destined for eternal punishment were contemplated by God as already fallen in Adam (a fallen lump of clay). They were not contemplated by God to be morally neutral. Thus, the justice of God in condemning those seen as already fallen in Adam is not impugned by this doctrine. It is only when the doctrine is mis-characterized by the likes of Robert Pate that questions arise, and are easily answered.
Rather than assuming you know what the Calvinist believes, if one wants to actually understand predestination as viewed by the Calvinist or the Reformed, one should just ask bona fide Calvinists or Reformed...or at least quote from their primary confessional standards, as in the Westminster, Belgic, Heidelberg or Helvetic confessions. After all, it is not a topic that any Calvinist or Reformed is afraid to answer sincere questions about honestly. Unfortunately, most just take the tactic of hyperbolic vitriol and await an answer. It as if persons are afraid of being seen as sympathetic to actually ask an honest question.
For a more detailed understanding of the sin of Adam and its impacts upon all his progeny, see:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...cs-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007#post4559007
In general, if one denies the full impacts of the sin of Adam, then discussion about matters such as predestination is fruitless. Deniers of original sin desperately cling to Rome's notions of prevenient grace. It is actually embarrassing to see a Protestant upholding Romanist thinking, especially given this year marks the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. The Reformers are rolling over in their graves at the nonsense that now passes for Protestantism we see in the likes of Robert's repetitive posts.
To better understand how the decree of God is viewed related to this topic see:
http://www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm
I wonder how much you actually understand about salvation, Robert. Take the test:
http://www.challies.com/resources/quiz-doctrine-salvation
How did you do? :AMR:
AMR
heir
TOL Subscriber
Paul writes in Romans 8:29 KJV For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
It does not say for whom He did force,...
Same old hogwash.
It is NOT man's fault that he is a sinner. Its Adam's fault "Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world" Romans 5:12. The teaching that God is justified by condemning humanity to hell is not true. When it comes to the salvation of fallen man God is NOT responsible. God in the person of Jesus Christ provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. It is our responsibility to accept what God has provided. Don't blame God if you wind up in hell, blame yourself.
Nanja
Well-known member
You preach a false gospel of works a man does to get himself saved.
On the contrary, according to the scriptures, It was God's will to create some as vessels of wrath prepared to destruction , and to create some to be vessels of honor Rom. 9:22-23!
God does according to His Will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Dan. 4:35.
Rom. 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
heir
TOL Subscriber
When did you trust the Lord AFTER hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation?
Lon
Well-known member
Good question, Heir. Is salvation an 'event' or an application? It could be both, but how we understand 'what Salvation is', influences how our theology plays out. I think you actually give the answer (for me and other Calvinists) in your question: "...trust the Lord..." For what? Well, salvation, of course, such that we think salvation happened and happens prior to our trust. It was there. It was provided for. For the Calvinist, we don't think God leaves that to chance. The problem with 'not chance' is it causes many people to think "fate" and "no choice" especially if you are a sinner without Christ. Conversely, others put it in man's hands, that their fate is their own BUT such would have us all in sin without Him. He had to intervene for all of us and especially some, like Saul who were choosing opposite. It would, in our thinking, render salvation at best, a cooperation: Hear the gospel, choose to be saved. It would then only be those who respond. That didn't happen with Saul. He was struck blind. I don't know exactly how we are chosen or what 'kind' of person it is that actually gets saved, but then choosing would be based on 'kind' and not another kind. We cannot escape some 'kind' of discrimination as Christians in answering such, but the Calvinist's position makes it much more stark and pronounced, thus we get scapegoated. However, it really is a part of all Christian theology. Predetermining and predestination are given scriptural terms. We all have to accept them as 'our' words, imho. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Did we really need ANOTHER Calvinist thread? I'm beginning to think you really love us and love talking to us, Robert.
"Anyone the, who knows the good he/she ought to do, and doesn't do it, sins."
We act on an impulse given to our nature. The nature wasn't our choice, but acting upon it surely is. I knew I should not have told that lie. I know I should have been mean to my siblings....
We have to be careful when we decided for God what is justifiable as well as what is simply the result "consequence." A child born in Africa during a famine will die. There is no blame on the U.S. for it, but I do think we are responsible for this generation of people. I digress, but I'm saying there is no assignment of blame though people will blame us. It is misplaced. It is misplaced toward Calvinism's understanding of God as well. It isn't 'fair' that a father drives off a cliff killing his whole family, but nobody blames him.
"Responsible" doesn't mean "blame." The two words are not synonymous and it is important to know the difference for this discussion.
He isn't to blame, but He assumes responsibility. Blame and responsibility are different. The race Fell while God was responsible for us. He wasn't caught unaware.
Kind of like a "do-it-yourself" kit? I'd say this to someone who has all the instructions and pieces in front of them: "If you can't put it together, don't blame me. I've done all I can, the rest is up to you." Is this sort of how you mean it? Can you explain this further? Thanks.
heir
TOL Subscriber
The gospel of our salvation is the event that took place 2000 years before we were even born. Trusting the Lord believing it after hearing it is when we are saved and sealed (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)/when the righteousness of God by the faith of Jesus Christ is put to our account/"upon" us (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).