BRXII Battle talk
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Ecumenicist
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Aimiel said:
You know what Amiel? I agree with you on this point. I'm not lukewarm on repentence,
I know that the people I help are going through hell on earth, and I know that a great deal
of fear and pain is included in the healing process. This is why I adhere to the interpretation
of Scripture where hell is a purgative, healing process, because not only scripture but
experience bears this out to be true.
Those who become intimate come to know His Infinite Love and Mercy, borne through
all His actions, including His law, judgement, and punishment.
Psalm 119
65 Do good to your servant
according to your word, O LORD.
66 Teach me knowledge and good judgment,
for I believe in your commands.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
but now I obey your word.
...
71 It was good for me to be afflicted
so that I might learn your decrees.
72 The law from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
Child molesting is a bad fruit, and rescuing others in danger is a good fruit. I'll agree
that "being nice" is no excuse for harming others.
thanx!
Contrary to the Scripture you choose to ignore which says otherwise.
There's been alot of criticism and concern about Logos' adequately reporting the
resources he uses in this debate. Pastor Kevin claims a title which he uses to lend
authority to and support the authenticity of his arguments. Its very reasonable and
appropriate to ask which denomination gave him this title, in the context of this debate.
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
...and this is the real reason you believe what you do about God's judgements. The propaganda that says the the KJV is the Word of God and is THE standard whereby all things are to be judged.
But...other threads deal with this issue. So I'll only say here that the above is rhetorical.
The KJV is quite good...but is not infallible, and is not the most accurate. Even the preface of the 1611 KJV says so...and at the time of publication it was quite controversial among scholars that did or did not endorse it.
While I am sure God helped in this endeavor, it was not the same as if God actually dictated the translation process Himself. To fail to understand this results in doctrines which are created by man, but attributed as actually being authored by God.
And that is a major issue when the topic of eternal torment is discussed. I've aready pointed out some of those issues in my first post in the Battle Royale...which are issues that are largely ignored by those that believe in eternal torment, even now, no matter how many times it is brought up.
Aimiel
Well-known member
God has symbolized, described, prophecied and fulfilled what He intended to. Taking words and re-defining them to make The Word of God mean something different is cheap and obvious. Allowing The Word of God to re-generate your being is more like what God desires, not the other way 'round. Submitting to Him and meditating His Word, not one's own 'understanding' is what He wants us to do.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:
Except when you use the fruit of the Spirit as a test you would fail in this assessment. You judge by mere appearance... the non judgemental nice guy down the street who loves to be around kids...
Please cite the verses where God offers anything more than salvation to the unrepentant. I can quote where God tells us the wages of sin is death, the strength of sin is the Law, and what the Law says it says to those under the Law.
This is a rabbit trail, dave. Please don't spam the thread with it.
logos_x
New member
Here is the main problem we are discussing.
In the doctrine of eternal torment, where the Bible says that all things are in subjection to God, through Christ in the end...billions of people are still in torment. The reason they are in torment is that they are not in subjection to Christ. If they WERE in subjection to Christ they would not be in torment...would they?
The whole scenario sounds like an episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk talks a computer into destroying itself.
Now...here is what the Apostle Paul says about the end...and this time I'll even use the King James Bible...
Now...the Apostle Paul does not have torment in mind at all when talking about being in subjection to Christ...He has God all in all as the outcome.
This simply cannot be true with a permanent unending torment as the final outcome at all. But people that believe in eternal torment, in their attempt to support their pet doctrine, say that people "spending eternity" apart from God is what Paul was talking about here...and they say if you don't see this you've taken things "out of context".
A Christian Universalist re-examines what was said about judgements...and will notice that all references to "everlasting", "eternal", and "forever and ever", etc., are translations of one four letter Greek word...AION, and its adjectives, AIONIOS, which is PLURAL, and AIONION, which means "pertaining to an AION".
The Hebrew equivilent in the Old Testament is OLAM.
AION is an undefined time...an age.
Redefining that word to mean "eternal" would derail what the Apostle Paul says is the outcome. Therefore, if what the Apostle Paul says is true...then the AION or AIONS in question cannot be unending. Since the Bible, in the Hebrew or the Greek, NEVER says the AION or AIONS in question are unending...there is no reason to believe they are unending.
Now...how do you determin who is right?
In the doctrine of eternal torment, where the Bible says that all things are in subjection to God, through Christ in the end...billions of people are still in torment. The reason they are in torment is that they are not in subjection to Christ. If they WERE in subjection to Christ they would not be in torment...would they?
The whole scenario sounds like an episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk talks a computer into destroying itself.
Now...here is what the Apostle Paul says about the end...and this time I'll even use the King James Bible...
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
(1Co 15:24-29 KJVR)
(1Co 15:24-29 KJVR)
Now...the Apostle Paul does not have torment in mind at all when talking about being in subjection to Christ...He has God all in all as the outcome.
This simply cannot be true with a permanent unending torment as the final outcome at all. But people that believe in eternal torment, in their attempt to support their pet doctrine, say that people "spending eternity" apart from God is what Paul was talking about here...and they say if you don't see this you've taken things "out of context".
A Christian Universalist re-examines what was said about judgements...and will notice that all references to "everlasting", "eternal", and "forever and ever", etc., are translations of one four letter Greek word...AION, and its adjectives, AIONIOS, which is PLURAL, and AIONION, which means "pertaining to an AION".
The Hebrew equivilent in the Old Testament is OLAM.
AION is an undefined time...an age.
Redefining that word to mean "eternal" would derail what the Apostle Paul says is the outcome. Therefore, if what the Apostle Paul says is true...then the AION or AIONS in question cannot be unending. Since the Bible, in the Hebrew or the Greek, NEVER says the AION or AIONS in question are unending...there is no reason to believe they are unending.
Now...how do you determin who is right?
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
So child molestation is patient, peaceful, kind, gentle....
Your wrong Nin, the fruits aren't just about people that appear nice on the surface.
The question was about God being omnipresent. Are you in politcs?
Double standards are no surprize here...
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:
The fruits of the Spirit aren't a spiritual test at all. Yet you consistently use them in such a way.
Me: God does not promise to be with those who hate Him dave. And really.... the Lake is outside of God, contrary to your belief.
You: Contrary to the Scripture you choose to ignore which says otherwise
Me: Please cite the verses where God offers anything more than salvation to the unrepentant. I can quote where God tells us the wages of sin is death, the strength of sin is the Law, and what the Law says it says to those under the Law.
Ball is still in your court, dave.
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
So you've deleted two of my posts, and replaced them with your own off topic responses.
I don't see you deleting anyone else's posts, off topic or not.
Oh brother....Redfin said:
Please give me a break. If you don't like TOL feel free to leave.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Your walk says otherwise.Dave Miller said:
No, they're not. Anyone in hell would gladly trade places with the worst-suffering person alive, so that they might actually have a chance to repent, so that they might not end up in hell, and the suffering doesn't compare. Hell is torment, day and night, by fire and worms.
That's just not the case.
No, we find that His Judgement is perfect, and that repentance only takes place in the earth.
There will be no obedience in hell, or learning. There is no escape.
Ecumenicist
New member
Redfin said:
Fact is, I love it too. Other sites are boring.
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
Right, regarding the scriptures that describe God as omnipresent. Can you find them?
And, if God weren't with sinners, God wouldn't bother chastizing. Reference the
Psalm I quoted earlier, thanking God for the affliction, so that we might come to know
His Word. And then there's that whole Job thing. Can you find the references? How
about Pauls references to God's calling him while he was killing Christians? Can
you find those?
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