BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

Nobody "wants" God over them....that is until they understand that it is a very GOOD thing if God is over them. In fact, they have a devilish disposition toward God...thinking God is only holding out on them and denying them what they want. They want to sin...and God says no.

I wanted God over me, before I knew anything about Him. Those who love evil won't come to God. I apologize, in advance, if what I'm quoting doesn't read the same way in your personal 'translation' of The Bible, but this is what the version that I have says:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[logos_x]

I wanted God over me, before I knew anything about Him.

Well, you are fortunate.
Actually...I made that statement painting with a very wide brush. Grace works on some from birth...possibly in answer to the prayers of those in the family.
You must have been blessed indeed.

Those who love evil won't come to God. I apologize, in advance, if what I'm quoting doesn't read the same way in your personal 'translation' of The Bible, but this is what the version that I have says:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Well, that is, of course, true. But you loved the truth because Grace was actively pursuing you. You came to the light...Praise God! For me it was when I was a teenager...because for me, too, it was something I desired and I knew that I was a sinner...and in danger of getting much worse at that time. The Grace of God actively pursued me...and I came to the light.

Others might run from it...but that does not mean they always will, forever. As I said before...the only way that eternal torment could be true for anyone is if they resist the invitation, and do so forever.

It is my hope, and my faith, that they will come sometime in the vastness of "eternity". I don't believe the Word of God was intended to say that would be impossible.

 

[red77]

Red you have been instructed on this time and again by myself and Knight, and you continue to try to make an argument based upon a fallacy. Slight differences in opinion do not change what the Bible says. There are even bigger seeming differences in opinion within the Universalist camp on what the Lake of Fire actually is, but we don't use that to try to disprove the doctrine, that is silly.

Its not a "slight" difference though pastor, if Aimiel thinks that eternal torment is 'crystal clear' then one would think there would be no ambiguity on the subject at all - and yet there is, lots.....and not just between you and Knight, I've seen many different opinions from ET'ers who would disagree with both yours and Knight's.

I've yet to encounter anyone who believes in universal salvation that thinks the lake is a literal fire although there are definitely different ideas on what it could be, the point is that there's practically universal agreement in that it is metaphorical given the context and nature of the chapter where it appears.

If the message of the Bible is that eternal torment awaits people then would it not be irrefutably clear on a subject of such crucial importance? Why would there be any room for interpretational error? Or cloudy enough for people to form their own opinions on just what it is? Surely it would be clear enough for both you and Knight to be in total agreement? Even if universalists may differ on their interpretations of the lake they all agree that it isnt an eternal place of either literal or metaphorical torment but part of God's overall plan to subject the whole of his creation unto himself, that it has a purpose in God's plan.

Even though the concept of ET is completely monstrous in any form there is a difference between separation and people being burned 'alive' through eternity as you have demonstrated your belief to be, why do you hold the view that God would physically torment people with fire when there is obviously room for doubt that the lake of fire isnt literal at all - enough for Knight to believe that it isnt, what makes you so sure that your belief is correct?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Redfin, you need to go back and read the context of the conversation that I was having with Dave Miller before you jump the gun. The question that was asked was not even directed at me, it was directed to Dave Miller and he has steadfastly refused to address the Scriptures that speak about how the church is to handle sexually immoral people within the congregation. My statement was why should I have to answer the question for Dave? He should KNOW those Scriptures himself Redfin.

In your hypocritical derision of me, why have you not also derided Dave Miller who professes to be a pastor?

I have no Pastor title, nor am I ordained by any denomination. I have never professed
to having the title "Pastor" either. You never mentioned which denomination ordained
you?

The funny thing is that if Dave were being honest and would say he has no clue what verses Nin was talking about, then I and many others would be glad to point him in the right direction. But it is obvious that he is just avoiding the topic altogether and Nineveh has been trying for page after page to get him to address how HE AS A PASTOR would deal with sexually immoral members in the church.

I'm not a mind reader either. I know how to use a concordance, but unless Nin points
out the exact verses she has in mind, I can't, and won't, comment.

I answered many times that I would attempt address such a problem from the context
of bringing about healing and reconcilliation.

 

[Aimiel]

Others might run from it...but that does not mean they always will, forever. As I said before...the only way that eternal torment could be true for anyone is if they resist the invitation, and do so forever. It is my hope, and my faith, that they will come sometime in the vastness of "eternity". I don't believe the Word of God was intended to say that would be impossible.

I believe that He would have most certainly said so, if what you hold were true; but, since He didn't...

 

[Aimiel]

Its not a "slight" difference though pastor, if Aimiel thinks that eternal torment is 'crystal clear' then one would think there would be no ambiguity on the subject at all - and yet there is, lots.....and not just between you and Knight, I've seen many different opinions from ET'ers who would disagree with both yours and Knight's.

Just because there's controversy doesn't negate either side being representative of Truth. A relationship with The Lord is required to enter Heaven, not knowledge, belief in a doctrine or 'grasp' of someone's silly concept. God gave us Truth in His Word. He gave us commandments, not suggestions. I believe also that there is far more Truth in His Word given in metaphors and allegory than people begin to realize; but since we cannot see the spirit realm, we have to take Him at His Word. His Word is clear, unless you have someone interpret It for you; then you're in trouble. It takes help to mis-understand His Word, and most universalists I've encountered have had way too much help. :chuckle:

 

[logos_x]

I believe that He would have most certainly said so, if what you hold were true; but, since He didn't...

Interesting...because I see that He did, and it is all over the Word of God.

 

[logos_x]

Just because there's controversy doesn't negate either side being representative of Truth. A relationship with The Lord is required to enter Heaven, not knowledge, belief in a doctrine or 'grasp' of someone's silly concept. God gave us Truth in His Word. He gave us commandments, not suggestions. I believe also that there is far more Truth in His Word given in metaphors and allegory than people begin to realize; but since we cannot see the spirit realm, we have to take Him at His Word. His Word is clear, unless you have someone interpret It for you; then you're in trouble. It takes help to mis-understand His Word, and most universalists I've encountered have had way too much help. :chuckle:

...unless you have someone interpret it for you...

Every translation, with the exception of the Concordant Version...which is the closest we have in the English to what the Greek and Hebrew originally says...is an interpretation.

When the KJV was produced, they were under the directives of King James to be in line with the doctrines of the Church of England, and to preserve whenever possible the divine right of the king. The writers overcame that handicap by utilizing marginal notes...which are no longer included in the KJV sold today. The KJV was simply a revision of the Bishop’s Bible, and the translators themselves noted in the preface that better translations would follow.

The foremost Hebrew scholar of the day, Hugh Broughton, when asked in 1611 to endorse the KJV, said: "I would rather be rent to pieces by wild horses than have had my part in the urging of such a wretched version of the Bible on the poor people"

Truth is, it is the people who think eternal torment is true that have interpreted the Bible to have an endless aion of chastisment...(kolasis is the word Jesus used...which was related to pruning plants to bear more fruit) when the Greek says simply "aionion" WITHOUT the "endless", anywhere. The KJV interprets aionion to mean "everlasting", and scholars have pointed out that it does not on its own. The marginal notes of the KJV the writers of that version included pointed that very thing out, the notes that the believers in eternal torment exclude today.

If you want the most accurate translation of the word of God, check out the Concordant Version.

 

[Aimiel]

If you want the most accurate translation of the word of God, check out the Concordant Version.

Ah... the universalist's Bible, the concordant. Humbug. If you want the version of The Word of God which is most faithful to the original languages, check out the Authorized King James Version.

 

[red77]

Ah... the universalist's Bible, the concordant. Humbug. If you want the version of The Word of God which is most faithful to the original languages, check out the Authorized King James Version.

Even non universalist sites would take issue with you on that Aimiel, the KJV is supposed to be one of the most inaccurate translations there is regardless of the positions we hold on the subject of ET, it seems as though you just dont want to admit that your beloved KJV may not be the most accurate reperesentation of the word no matter what, and that is wilful ignorance.....

 

[red77]

Just because there's controversy doesn't negate either side being representative of Truth. A relationship with The Lord is required to enter Heaven, not knowledge, belief in a doctrine or 'grasp' of someone's silly concept. God gave us Truth in His Word. He gave us commandments, not suggestions. I believe also that there is far more Truth in His Word given in metaphors and allegory than people begin to realize; but since we cannot see the spirit realm, we have to take Him at His Word. His Word is clear, unless you have someone interpret It for you; then you're in trouble. It takes help to mis-understand His Word, and most universalists I've encountered have had way too much help. :chuckle:

You said it was "crystal clear" Aimiel, that would negate the need for any controversy wouldnt you think? :think:

 

[Nineveh]

I have no Pastor title, nor am I ordained by any denomination. I have never professed
to having the title "Pastor" either. You never mentioned which denomination ordained
you?

Dave, you claimed to be an assistant pastor.

...the exact verses she has in mind, I can't, and won't, comment.

Even if you fibbed about being an assistant pastor, you should still know how a flock is to be shepherded. Or else how would you judge error?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, you claimed to be an assistant pastor.

Even if you fibbed about being an assistant pastor, you should still know how a flock is to be shepherded. Or else how would you judge error?

Your label, not mine.

I said I assist Pastors, in my home church and others.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, you claimed to be an assistant pastor.

Even if you fibbed about being an assistant pastor, you should still know how a flock is to be shepherded. Or else how would you judge error?

Judging angels again, I see.

Keep ignoring Jesus' words about "judging not," and Paul's words about loving as well.

Very one sided theology y'all have.

 

[Nineveh]

Your label, not mine.

I said I assist Pastors, in my home church and others.

Well thank God I was in error! You have no more authority in a flock than an ignorant pew sitter.

Judging angels again, I see.

Are you claiming to be an angel?

Keep ignoring Jesus' words about "judging not," and Paul's words about loving as well.

Keep ignoring Jesus is talking to hypocrites. As far as what Paul has to say, it appears you don't really know.

Very one sided theology y'all have.

Yeah, it's Biblically based, you might wanna try it sometime.

 

[kmoney]

I think it good to help heal their lives, but it is not the most important thing at that moment. Trying to heal their lives without turning them over to Satan will destroy lives.

It is never a good idea to think you are smarter than God. When God has left instructions for how to deal with the sexually immoral and someone says "Well, I think this approach is better....", frankly that tells me they are not equipped to be a leader in a church.

Even worse is that someone that gives their own opinion and then announces that they have not sought God's opinion and suggests that people need to instruct them if they disagree. Uggg!!!

What do you mean by turn them over to Satan?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Well thank God I was in error! You have no more authority in a flock than an ignorant pew sitter.

Are you claiming to be an angel?

Keep ignoring Jesus is talking to hypocrites. As far as what Paul has to say, it appears you don't really know.

Yeah, it's Biblically based, you might wanna try it sometime.

I claim no authority, I'm called to help others.

The "angels" quote is your justification for judging others.

This "Jesus' words don't apply to me" logic is false. It lacks humility, and dismisses
all calls to love, mercy, gentleness, kindness, in fact it completely removes and denies
the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.

This reveals the truth of Jesus' Divinity, when Jesus is removed, the Holy Spirit is removed
as well. Without Love, there is nothing.

There is no love in forcing people into eternal torment, the doctrine is false witness.

You folks that hold Scripture so sacred forget that Satan quotes scripture too, quite
effectively. How are we to know whether Scriptural doctrines are true or
false? By the fruits they bear. There is no love in eternal torment. No peace, no hope,
no forgiveness, ho healing, and none of that which is the greatest of all Spiritual Gifts, no
love.

 

[Ecumenicist]

PK, I really am curious about your ordination experience. Which denomination?

 

[Nineveh]

The "angels" quote is your justification for judging others.

Here is my "justification": "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." But Paul does go on to tell us that we will judge angels, we should be able to handle earthly matters.

This "Jesus' words don't apply to me" logic is false. It lacks humility, and dismisses all calls to love, mercy, gentleness, kindness, in fact it completely removes and denies the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.

Dave, when you speak directly against what God tells us, that is lacking humility. When you preach against what God tells us, that lacks love. Even now you still fight against what you really aren't sure ( or even if)Paul tells us to do with the sexually immoral in the flock. You don't know the first thing about Godly Love, yet you blather on about "unconditional love" ... until pressed of course... then you disappear until you think everyone has forgotten.

This reveals the truth of Jesus' Divinity, when Jesus is removed, the Holy Spirit is removed as well. Without Love, there is nothing.

Without faith in Christ one has nothing.

There is no love in forcing people into eternal torment, the doctrine is false witness.

I'm not like logos, dave. I'm not willing to see all that you have preached and decide this one issue you managed to get right. Especially when you know nothing of Love, forgiveness, repentance, judgement, etc.

You folks that hold Scripture so sacred forget that Satan quotes scripture too, quite effectively.

Is this why you shun the Bible so much? Why you pay no attention to it at all? Because you think you will be like satan if you know what is actually in there?

How are we to know whether Scriptural doctrines are true or
false? By the fruits they bear.

No dave. Once again the fruits of the Spirit are not some spiritual test! The fruits are the natural outpouring of the Spirit in one's life. We know what is false by comparing doctrine to the Word. Test every spirit, John says. How can you test a spirit when you don't even know what's on the test?!

A child molester can be the most kind, gentle, caring, compassionate guy on the block, to you, he has the fruits of the spirit. His next door neighbor could be the most judgemental trying to save him and the kids he violates, and to you the neighbor would not have the Spirit. Judge rightly dave, not by mere appearance.

There is no love in eternal torment. No peace, no hope,
no forgiveness, ho healing, and none of that which is the greatest of all Spiritual Gifts, no
love.

You are right. God does not promise to be with those who hate Him dave. And really.... the Lake is outside of God, contrary to your belief.

PK, I really am curious about your ordination experience. Which denomination?

Please take this to a new thread or PM, thanks.

 

[Aimiel]

Anyone who comes to The Lord does so through fear, since the fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Those who come to know Him, find out about His Goodness. Those who become intimate with Him come to know both His Goodness and His Severity.