BRXII Battle talk

[Ecumenicist]

But you don't even know what Paul has to say, or even if he had something to say on the issue.

Know who is prone to advance falsehoods, dave? People who have no clue what the Bible says. About "meat" matters, "milk" matters or even matters that apply to their own authority in a church group. That is who spreads, supports, enforces and preaches falsehoods.

The Truth hurts, dave. Lies and falsehoods dressed up in the clothing of "unconditional love" harms.

Truth heals, Nin. Honestly. God's truth heals.

1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Pathetic. You accept authority in a flock, yet you have no clue what a shepherd is supposed to do. What's it been, dave? Ten pages or so? ... and you still haven't bothered to look?

Again with the control freak thing. Where did you get these silly ideas? God carries the
only authority. All we can do is hope to serve, and even then, it is not we who serve, lest
we boast, but rather it is Christ working through us.

 

[Ecumenicist]

You're idea, "Live and let live," will simply encourage those who sin to do so freely; and their end will be hell, where the real victims end up. The victims of heresy and foolish 'interpretation' of Scripture. You're the one who is victimizing people, in the name of, "Peace, peace," where there is no peace. Thank God that your kind is farther and further between, and that His Spirit is capable of revealing Truth with or without your 'help.'

Again with the quotes and false witness! I never said that, never once. But as Logos
said, its better than live and let die. Also better than live in eternal torment.

How about live and help promote love, respect, and healing through Christ's healing Grace. I might have said that.

 

[Aimiel]

What I don't understand is your "argument"

If you understood The Scriptures we wouldn't have an argument.

 

[Aimiel]

Where has Dave said anything about "Live and let live"?

At any rate...seems to be much better than "live and let die".

Both are un-scriptural. If someone is headed to judgement, and you don't warn them, their blood will be required by your hands. I hate to think of how many people you'll be responsible for the punishment of.

 

[Aimiel]

Again with the quotes and false witness! I never said that, never once.

You can deny it all you want, it still is true. Universalism says it, through you, whether you realize it or not. I imagine that you don't realize it, though.

 

[red77]

Both are un-scriptural. If someone is headed to judgement, and you don't warn them, their blood will be required by your hands. I hate to think of how many people you'll be responsible for the punishment of.

So you must believe that the salvation and eternal destinies of men lie on the shoulders of other men Aimiel if we're 'responsible' for the outcomes....

 

[red77]

If you understood The Scriptures we wouldn't have an argument.

Seriously - what does that type of throwaway remark hope to accomplish? do you consider yourself infallible on the interpretation of scripture?

 

[logos_x]

Both are un-scriptural. If someone is headed to judgement, and you don't warn them, their blood will be required by your hands. I hate to think of how many people you'll be responsible for the punishment of.

First of all, the Gospel I teach is the Gospel of Grace. You assume that people that believe in the grace that saves will be punished, and that somehow I am responsible for how they respond to that Gospel. God did not lay the salvation of the world upon me, He layed in upon Christ Jesus. Only He is the Savior, I'm just a witness to that fact.

Secondly, if you really understood how much the doctrine of eternal torment alienates people from God you would realize that while you point at me your other fingers are pointing back at yourself.

None of us are perfect and infallible. Thankfully, we have a savior that really does save...For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:5-6 KJV)

:wave2:

 

[logos_x]

Seriously - what does that type of throwaway remark hope to accomplish? do you consider yourself infallible on the interpretation of scripture?

I doubt that is what Aimiel really believes. The remark was a ploy to try to invoke guilt for beliving that Christ, through grace, will save all men eventually. He belives that if WE aren't successful in reaching people, then Jesus cannot do anything on His own to save them...and since they are already in Hell, Jesus' hands will be tied so He CANNOT save them once they are in Hell. There is simply no way out of there in the doctrine of eternal torment, no matter what. So, his concern...within his plausibility structure...is that teaching eternal torment is necessary in order to warn people about what they are in danger of being trapped in and born of a doubt that Jesus can save people once one is in Hell.

I understand what He's trying to really do...and that is to motivate people to come to Christ now...which I agree with, they definitly will be better off if they come now and avoid all punishment by doing so. But Aimiel, like cabinitmaker has expressed, views Hell as a witnessing tool....that billions of people in eternal torment is nothing more than motivation to come to Christ.

We can all see how well that has worked...can't we?

 

[Aimiel]

So you must believe that the salvation and eternal destinies of men lie on the shoulders of other men Aimiel if we're 'responsible' for the outcomes....

Well, besides the men who obeyed The Lord and wrote His Word, as well as those who printed it, you will also get to thank everyone who had a hand in leading you to a saving knowledge of The Lord, including those who preached to you, and even the one who told you any little thing that led you to believe upon The Lord for your salvation. Yes, we are responsible. Jesus told us to preach the Gospel to every creature. If we don't, then we're responsible for disobeying Him.

As to where I draw this doctrine...

"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

And...

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

I don't believe that the destiny of others belongs to us, but their punishment will be required at the hand of those who are responsible for it. All of those who are responsible will be called into account. The Lord sees everything that happens, and every idle word that men ever speak (and apparently don't speak) they shall have to give account thereof. :sheep:

 

[Aimiel]

Seriously - what does that type of throwaway remark hope to accomplish? do you consider yourself infallible on the interpretation of scripture?

I'm not trying to 'accomplish' anything. I consider Scripture to be clear as crystal on the subject of eternal conscious torment, and don't see God changing His Word to make it 'politically correct.'

 

[logos_x]

Well, besides the men who obeyed The Lord and wrote His Word, as well as those who printed it, you will also get to thank everyone who had a hand in leading you to a saving knowledge of The Lord, including those who preached to you, and even the one who told you any little thing that led you to believe upon The Lord for your salvation. Yes, we are responsible. Jesus told us to preach the Gospel to every creature. If we don't, then we're responsible for disobeying Him.

As to where I draw this doctrine...

"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

And...

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

I don't believe that the destiny of others belongs to us, but their punishment will be required at the hand of those who are responsible for it. All of those who are responsible will be called into account. The Lord sees everything that happens, and every idle word that men ever speak (and apparently don't speak) they shall have to give account thereof. :sheep:

Well said, Aimiel! :thumb:

 

[logos_x]

I'm not trying to 'accomplish' anything. I consider Scripture to be clear as crystal on the subject of eternal conscious torment, and don't see God changing His Word to make it 'politically correct.'

Actually. Aimiel, you do believe that God changed His Word to make it politically correct...according to Rome.

Eternal conscious torment is the product of mixing pagan beliefs with scripture, adding words to scripture, and was "politcally correct" 1500 years ago.

 

[logos_x]

...and, obviously, it is still politically correct in some circles today.
I'm the one (and others as well) being "politically incorrect" when it comes to the doctrine of eternal torment here.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Apparently Satan himself, and demons as well, will be given the gift of belief some day.

I guess when your doctrine is completely debunked you can either accept it, or go in the other direction hoping that the more ridiculous, the more someone may believe it.

 

[Aimiel]

...and, obviously, it is still politically correct in some circles today.
I'm the one (and others as well) being "politically incorrect" when it comes to the doctrine of eternal torment here.

No, your doctrine is PC to those outside of Christ. The world thinks the same way you do: "I guess I'm pretty good, I've led a good life, never killed anybody, I guess I'll get into Heaven." Even perfection isn't good enough. No one could suffer in hell long enough to pay for a single sin, even given eternity. God isn't expecting to turn anyone into a Christian by the fires of eternal torment, He's expecting eternal torment. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Believing that without faith one simply gets tortured into believing is foolishness.

 

[logos_x]

No, your doctrine is PC to those outside of Christ. The world thinks the same way you do: "I guess I'm pretty good, I've led a good life, never killed anybody, I guess I'll get into Heaven." Even perfection isn't good enough. No one could suffer in hell long enough to pay for a single sin, even given eternity. God isn't expecting to turn anyone into a Christian by the fires of eternal torment, He's expecting eternal torment. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Believing that without faith one simply gets tortured into believing is foolishness.

Well, Aimiel, all that proves is you can start with a presumption, and build your other presumptions around that...and end up anywhere, even with a good and moral God burning billions of people for all eternity for not believing in Him. Each of your points presumes God made things so that eternal conscious torment is the default outcome unless you are saved from that outcome, and is the foundation of the eternal torment doctrine. The entire construct is built upon the foundation that God did that...even though there is absolutly no evidence that God thought this idea up in the first place.

Now...I am not saying that people that are without faith are tortured into believing. I'm saying that the torment comes from within as a result of not believing, and faith alleviates it. Faith is the cure...even when one is suffering under the consequences of sin.

So, I agree with you...believing people are tortured into believing is foolishness. How could torture result in a free response of love? That is why it is not what I've said. I've said that salvation allieviates the torment...and that is very much different that what you are thinking.

 

[logos_x]

I guess when your doctrine is completely debunked you can either accept it, or go in the other direction hoping that the more ridiculous, the more someone may believe it.

Are you talking to me?
How ridiculous have the arguments been for eternal torment? Hmmm?

It's a fable, and a very bad one...and it's attributed to the Father. People believe the ridiculous notion that this Father devised an eternal torture chamber, and then think they are debunking anything that says otherwise.

Well...yes, I guess you are right...but for the wrong reasons.

 

[Redfin]

I know exactly the verses in which Paul instructs the church on how to handle sexually immoral members. Why should I have to do your work?

PK, you've thrown out this pathetic line numerous times, and for someone who professes to be a "pastor," that has to be one of the most "anti-christ-like" attitudes I've ever encountered. :vomit:

Here's a few passages for you to consider before you "throw up" that despicable line again...

Romans 10:14c - And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 8:31b-32a - "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How could I, unless someone guides me?"

 

[red77]

I'm not trying to 'accomplish' anything. I consider Scripture to be clear as crystal on the subject of eternal conscious torment, and don't see God changing His Word to make it 'politically correct.'

Really? Crystal clear enough so that all those who believe in ET would be in complete agreement as to what the lake of fire is? Pastor Kevin and Knight havent been.....
:think: