Believing in vain- 1Co 15:2

[john w]

"But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot (my comment added: a reference to Daniel’s portion/inheritance in the land promised to his father Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant) at the end of the days." Daniel 12:13 KJV

Resurrection="to stand up" Again, to reemphasize a premise: this doctrine of a future bodily, physical resurrection, is not merely some sort of "spiritual" "standing up", is confirmed throughout the Old Testament. Repeating the previous few examples:

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God...." Job 19:25-26 KJV

(Stand is a clear reference to resurrection)

"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:14 KJV

"The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death." Proverbs 14:32 KJV

"Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Psalms 16:9-10 KJV

"Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth." Psalms 71:20 KJV

"I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD." Psalms 118:17 KJV

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19 KJV

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13:14 KJV

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2 KJV

Again: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand(emphasis mine)at the latter day upon the earth..." Job 19:25 KJV


How does verse 13 show that the view that the the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled is false? The answer is very simple: the 70th week of Daniel cannot have been fulfilled, because Daniel has not been resurrected. If you take the scripture literally, Daniel will be resurrected at the end of the still-future 70th week, the portion of the Jewish sabbatic calendar that concludes Daniel's prophecy. And here’s the simple reasoning – the seventy weeks are Jewish sabbatic years, and the time interval pertains to the nation of Israel("thy people"-Daniel 9:24 KJV). When God temporarily set aside the nation of Israel, as recorded in the book of Acts, the "sabbatical clock" stopped ticking. When the LORD God resumes in the future His dealing with Israel according to His faithful promises, "...the promises made unto the fathers...."(Romans 15:8), this sabbatical clock will resume, and the 70th week (sabbatic year) can, and will resume.

Of course you may discount this literally, suggesting that this is a "spiritual" resurrection, as do "postmillennialists/A-millennialists" today, as Hymenaeus and Philetus did, "...saying the resurrection is past already....(1 Tim. 1;20 KJV, 2 Tim. 2:18 KJV). You decide, for "...to his own master he standeth or falleth...." Romans 14:4.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Although the following few observations are somewhat off the subject, perhaps they "indirectly" support the previous premise::

As you well know, the OT is the LORD God's "picture book", His object lessons, pointing to some phase of the person or work of the Lord Jesus Christ and our relation to Him. The word "ensample" is from "tupos"-our English word "type." And as most of you know, Joseph is a type of Christ. In Psalms 81:5 we read that Joseph was ordained by the LORD God as a testimony, or a type, in all his Egyptian experiences. I have seen many studies re. the analogous and typical relations between the Lord Jesus Christ and Joseph before(as I am sure you have also), but the following solidifies the millennium viewpoint, and supports the certainty that there will be the Great Tribulation-again refuting the preterist theology. Genesis Chapter 42: In verses 1-3, Joseph's brethren, because of great tribulation, were forced to seek out Joseph for help. Similarly, the Jews, during the Great Tribulation, amid great tribulation, shall call upon Him who is Lord(Deut. 30:1-2 KJV and others). In verse 7,Joseph punished his brethren before he revealed himself to them. Similarly, the Lord Jesus Christ will punish the Jews prior to revealing Himself to them(Mt. 24:21 KJV, Mt. 24:30 KJV and others). Notice this is in chapter 42 of Genesis- one chapter for each month of the Great Tribulation: Daniel 7:25 KJV; Rev. 12:6 KJV, Rev.12:14 KJV, Rev. 13:5 KJV.

Also notice that the book of Job( which means "one persecuted"), is a type of the Great Tribulation. It also has 42 chapters. Job is "...upon the ground seven days and seven nights....Job 2:13 KJV), one for each year in Daniel's 70th week. Job is in Edom per Lamentations 4:21-this is where Israel will be in the Great Tribulation per Isaiah 34:6 KJV and Isaiah 63:1 KJV and the book of Obadiah . Idumea=Edom=descendants of Esau: Gen. 32:7 KJV-"Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed...."-This is a picture of "...the time of Jacob's trouble...." of Jer. 30:7 KJV, with Esau as a type of the anti-christ pursuing Jacob(Israel) in the Great Tribulation). The one who persecutes Job will be the same one who persecutes Israel during the Great Tribulation.

These "types" of the surety of a future "Great Trib" and 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus Christ(and thus the false doctrine of the preterist view) are imbedded throughout the Holy Bible.

As usual, be noble, and "check it out in the Book", whether these "... things were so"(Acts 17:11 KJV.

 

[steko]

Saint John W's post #81.

Now.....that's what I'm talkin' about!

 

[musterion]

Funny how we're accused of making God's Word of no effect by simply taking it as it lays...while those who allegorically deny it in hundreds of places are the champeens of the Hath God Said? Club.

 

[musterion]

Saint John W's post #81.

Now.....that's what I'm talkin' about!

He speaks the holy words.

 

[steko]

Daniel 12 KJV

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


To stand up.....Daniel will be resurrected, in the future, to inherit the land-his lot

Very good, Saint John!

Dan 12:13 καὶ σὺ δεῦρο καὶ ἀναπαύου· ἔτι γὰρ ἡμέραι εἰς ἀναπλήρωσιν συντελείας, καὶ ἀναστήσῃ εἰς τὸν κλῆρόν σου εἰς συντέλειαν ἡμερῶν.- LXX

The Greek Septuagint uses the word 'anastese' which is kin to the word 'anastasis' which Paul uses regarding Christ's resurrection, as well as ours in the future:

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection[anastasis] of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


..and you are correct, 'Anastasia' means to stand up. That which was once horizontal, the physical body as Paul says 'asleep' then literally stands up.

It's a physical resurrection of the body which was once dead/asleep.

 

[turbosixx]

You need check no further than those who refuse to receive a love of the Truth whereby they might have been saved, thereby bringing down God's vengeful flaming fire upon themselves. Paul could have stated it any clearer.

True, but one who has a love of the Truth will be a doer and one who does not love the Truth will not be a doer. That is exactly what those examples show.

Do you believe forgiveness and justification is a matter of DO (earned or kept by a life of effort) or a matter of DONE (resting in His perfect, finished work for us)? There's no crossover there and no third option. Which one are you believing?

In order to earn it we would have to be perfect, so no one can earn it.

The way I understand it, when we obey the gospel we become a Christian. Then we need to walk accordingly to be considered worthy or yes we can loose it.
2 Thes. 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering



When I look at the language used when talking to Christians I don't see it supporting the done view point. For example:

1 Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
Shouldn't they have already obtained it?

9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
This doesn't sound like DONE.

He follows this up by giving the example of those Israelites that didn't make it to the promised land.
1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

To me this isn't the language of done but of do.


I would be glad to look a the verses that tell us about his finished work, could you please provide a few.

 

[steko]

He speaks the holy words.

Yep.

 

[steko]

Funny how we're accused of making God's Word of no effect by simply taking it as it lays...while those who allegorically deny it in hundreds of places are the champeens of the Hath God Said? Club.

It ain't funny...it's sad.

 

[musterion]

True, but one who has a love of the Truth will be a doer and one who does not love the Truth will not be a doer. That is exactly what those examples show.

Paul says very clearly that they are condemned because of what they refused to believe, not because of what they refused to do.

I'm gathering from all this that you have made faith into a form of work.

In order to earn it we would have to be perfect, so no one can earn it.

If you're not able to earn it then by the same token you're not able to lose it either. That's how a genuine gift of grace works.

 

[john w]

Saint John W's post #81.

Now.....that's what I'm talkin' about!

Thanks, fellow Mayberry groupie steko!

In the resurrection, the LORD God will fulfill the land promise exactly as written by raising up from the dead Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(and Daniel and.................). This conclusion alone honors the promises of God and the faith of Abraham. When Abraham died, he had not received the promised land!(nor did Daniel!) In the resurrection,he and his faithful descendants will inherit the land exactly as promised.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance(my emphasis-in the resurrection, as confirmed in Daniel 12:13 KJV=his "lot=his land inheritance in a resurrected body), obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8 KJV

In Matt 22:31-32 KJV, the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to unbelieving Sadducees, connects God and Abraham to prove/confirm the doctrine of the resurrection.

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(resurrection-my emphasis).

Again....Daniel 12:13 KJV: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death-my note), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).

Matt 8:11 KJV: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven"(resurrected in the land of "the kingdom of heaven"-my emphasis).

Daniel 2:44 KJV: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11 KJV, Col. 2:7 KJV, Eph. 2:20-22 KJV), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

No one can sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, unless they are raised from the dead.

unto Eternal life:
An everlasting covenant between GOD and Abraham demands everlasting life, an everlasting possession of the promised land to Abraham and his descendants demands the resurrection and everlasting life.

These facts of an everlasting covenant between God and Abraham, Gen.17:7 KJV, and the promise of an everlasting possession of the land given to Abraham(Gen 17:8 KJV), are the biblical foundation for our belief in the resurrection and eternal life, and the eternal inheritance of the Lord Jesus Christ Christ and the Jewish saints.

God will be faithful. The Romans 15:8 KJV promise to the circumcision will happen....

 

[steko]

He speaks the holy words.

"H-he is ho-ho-holy man."- Stands With Fist

 

[Tambora]

Very good, Saint John!

Dan 12:13 καὶ σὺ δεῦρο καὶ ἀναπαύου· ἔτι γὰρ ἡμέραι εἰς ἀναπλήρωσιν συντελείας, καὶ ἀναστήσῃ εἰς τὸν κλῆρόν σου εἰς συντέλειαν ἡμερῶν.- LXX

The Greek Septuagint uses the word 'anastese' which is kin to the word 'anastasis' which Paul uses regarding Christ's resurrection, as well as ours in the future:

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection[anastasis] of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


..and you are correct, 'Anastasia' means to stand up. That which was once horizontal, the physical body as Paul says 'asleep' then literally stands up.

It's a physical resurrection of the body which was once dead/asleep.

anistēmi
the verb form
G450

 

[steko]

anistēmi
the verb form
G450

Yes, so does it matter with regard to one's salvation whether they believe that Christ resurrected physically in continuity with the body which died on the cross?

Would it be just as well to believe that He was raised as a spirit?
Or would it be just as well to believe that His body which died on the cross disintegrated in the tomb and He then began to exist as another person as a spirit.

Do these things really matter?

Do these beliefs affect one's salvation?

 

[Tambora]

Yes, so does it matter with regard to one's salvation whether they believe that Christ resurrected physically in continuity with the body which died on the cross?

Would it be just as well to believe that He was raised as a spirit?
Or would it be just as well to believe that His body which died on the cross disintegrated in the tomb and He then began to exist as another person as a spirit.

Do these things really matter?

Do these beliefs affect one's salvation?

It's hard to imagine that one could be called a believer if one does not believe the word of GOD.
And to spiritualize it away is the same as not believing the word of GOD.

 

[glorydaz]

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.



Does anybody want to define what the word 'resurrection' means?

Seems rather pertinent, to me.

I think it means to rise physically from the dead.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh gee, serves me right for reading from front to back instead of back to front like I usually do. :chuckle:

 

[Tambora]

I think it means to rise physically from the dead.

Oh gee, serves me right for reading from front to back instead of back to front like I usually do. :chuckle:

Hey, that might work better.
You gave an answer before possibly being biased by other's commentary.

 

[steko]

I think it means to rise physically from the dead.

And you'd be right!

 

[steko]

It's hard to imagine that one could be called a believer if one does not believe the word of GOD.
And to spiritualize it away is the same as not believing the word of GOD.

I agree.

I think that one can read the Scripture with a literal interpretation and come to the conclusion that the eyewitnesses claimed that the Lord Jesus came back to life in the physical body in which He died on the cross without resorting to the study of Greek words such as 'anastasia' though these kind of studies certainly reinforce one's conclusions.

What is it, do you suppose, that hinders a person from believing the Scriptures in what they plainly state concerning Christ's resurrection from among the dead?

 

[musterion]

So according to some, Hebrews 11:19 must mean Abraham was willing to physically sacrifice his son because he knew God would give him back spiritually. Makes no sense.