Believing in vain- 1Co 15:2

[George Affleck]

Certainly.

I hope I can answer this.
Maybe not! lol

I prefer 'predestined' rather than 'fore-ordained' as the latter is more an LDS term for something slightly different.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is how the question is framed. We ask a question about a theoretical, unsaved individual in the present and assume that, in order for God to be 'just', this person must have choice to respond to the Gospel. They have choice with respect to ice cream flavours but not with regeneration. Their default position is complete deadness to God and are, therefore, destined to be without Him forever.

All are already worthy of destruction as sons and daughters of Adam. Each individual is not a new, sinless creation but chained to Adam by birth. Only new birth is a new creation. Paradise was lost to all subsequent generations. We were sold into slavery at the Fall and are bond servants to Satan and rightfully his property by virtue of our birth. God is completely just in acknowledging Satan's ownership for his own property. Judicially he has all rights to us. Predestination to hell is already in place for everyone related to Adam unless something else intervenes. It is our default position in a fallen world. God is, therefore, not lying (I think you mean seemingly unjust) when He talks about those who are fitted for destruction before they are born.

Adam was the only human who did have choice and he failed. So technically, in Adam, we are not choiceless people. We are Adam's progeny. His disobedience rendered choice impossible for us. He made the choice on our behalf. Jesus is the only one ever born without those judicial rights being owned by Satan. When Satan conspired to have Him killed, for the first time he became judicially guilty of murdering a 'free' man and is now convicted and sentenced to eternal death along with those he can still hold onto. It was a 'sting' operation perfectly designed to vanquish Satan.

This brings the question back as far as Adam but it does not answer why God allowed Adam to sin in the first place. For me, this is answered simply by understanding that the decision was made in the Godhead to elevate the Son to the highest position in the universe as Lord of Lords and God chose a path that was perfect.
We have trouble thinking in any other terms except linearly. But God does not have that restriction. When He reveals to humankind, He accommodates His words within our linear thinking for our benefit, within our bubble. But with Him, time does not exist. It is in this way that He declares that Jesus was the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

It is almost as if that decision was made and all history was subsequently allowed to unfold to accomplish that one purpose. We do not question God when, in the absence of light, darkness prevails. Why do we think that God is lying (unjust) if spiritual darkness exists and He is the one who decides where His light will shine? It's just a more complicated version of the same old "Why have you made me thus?" question.

 

[musterion]

You did not address the question, George, you talked around it. But let's try it this way with an admittedly absurd illustration.

I have two daughters, 8 and 6. Let's say I have the power to influence their destiny without their knowledge and without appearing to control or negate their power of choice.

Totally of my own sovereignty, the result is that I influence one to take a certain path while the other takes a different path. I even tell the one taking the "bad" path that she shouldn't do that but of course she takes it anyway, because I left her with no choice at all.

Result: I reward the one child for having chosen wisely. I rebuke, cast out and punish the other child for having chosen poorly. THIS IS WHAT I TELL THEM.

Neither one has the slightest clue that back of both their "decisions" was ME, omnipotently orchestrating everything so minutely that, in reality, neither of them had the slightest choice in what they believed they were choosing to do. They know none of this, BUT I KNOW IT.

Question:

When I tell the bad daughter that I'm condemning her for choosing to ignore my warnings by insisting on following the bad path, am I telling her the truth?

Also, could I honestly say that I really do love my bad daughter, given that from the beginning I secretly set her up to fail?

 

[Danoh]

Much of the time when I'm studying, I'll read a word or phrase in a text that triggers my memory of the same word or phrase somewhere else in Scripture. I'm not saying that every time the same word is used that it means exactly the same thing in context. But sometimes it does.

Such is the case in 1Co 15 with Paul's use of the word 'vain' when he uses the word four times in 1Co 15.

To add to your above - also, often, other, sometimes even different words, phrases, passages where the same subjects, themes, issues were nevertheless also being dealt with, will be prompted come to my mind due to their shared meaning relationship with one another.

In fact, this is what words like remember, recall, and recollect are describing.

Remember = re + member: to bring the members or pieces of a thing together again.

Recall = re + call.

Recollect = re + collect.

This is plain old memory management - words like those are describing (unawares).

Our memory process and it's mechanisms; how it does its' thing.

No "Spirit's leading" here as that was over when "that which is perfect" came.

Rather, our memory of the Word through Its' Words is set off - "hmmm, this word, phrase, passages RE MINDS me of this other one over in..."

Remind = re + mind: to re-mind; to bring to mind...again.

Matthew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Luke 24:8 And they remembered his words,

John 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

This is why time in Scripture Itself is important; allowing IT to give YOU - the reader - IT's intended sense; in CONTRAST to those who are supposedly "experts" based on "the writings of "their countless books "about."

Time in Scripture results in a PERSONAL storehouse of It's Words and THEIR intended sense.

Results in MEMORY that is then useful in solving for "what does this mean" questions.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

I have often found the following very useful: words that differ in the original, at times end up synonymous in the Early Modern English of the KJV - where their subject matter is similar.

As in the word "dividing" in the following two passages.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This principle has helped shed much light on the intended sense of many, many Words in Scripture.

 

[Zeke]

I believe the key lies in ....

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The wages of sin is death.

Since Christ was the only one that ever died sinless, He was able to break the bondage of the grave.
Without the resurrection, we would all be forever in the grave.

Raised in you that is, you are in the tomb/grave/field/flesh/earth right now ( Luke 9:60) until you the Divine Seed/invisible conscience is raised within through a inner revelation like Galatians 1:12, and seeing Paul is suppose to be a pattern for all those that follow everyone should experience the same type of inner awakening, which you don't hear or see Luke 17:20-21 because Christ is Spirit and so are the words we only hear within which bypass human understanding and many cultural/ethnic/gender/nationalistic Dogmas we fall into through emotional feelings/pride instead of being exposed to our Divine origins where all things exist in Christ which is our story Luke 15:35.

The Key Lie is the traditional human/flesh and blood sacrifice instead of what the will of the Creator is Matthew 9:13, 1Cor 13:1-13, The Spirit is all things to all people 1Cor 9:19-23 and some awake now Luke 15:17 and others come back until the appointed/due time for them 1Tim 2:4-6 Romans 11:31-33 after going through the former and latter times seeing the persona is temporal while the conscience is Divine Philippians 2:5-8 the Spirit took on the form of man entrapped "in" flesh and can never die Galatians 4:1.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We ask a question about a theoretical, unsaved individual in the present and assume that, in order for God to be 'just', this person must have choice to respond to the Gospel.

Of course the Lord is just and the Scriptures reveal that all men can indeed respond to the gospel, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

Here we read that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. And the purpose as to why he blinds them is "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel." That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.

After all, it is impossible to blind the minds of anyone to the truth of the gospel unless they have the ability in the first place to see the light of the gospel. The verb form of the word "blind" means to "make blind." It is impossible to "make blind" someone who is already blind.

 

[Zeke]

Certainly.

I hope I can answer this.
Maybe not! lol

I prefer 'predestined' rather than 'fore-ordained' as the latter is more an LDS term for something slightly different.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is how the question is framed. We ask a question about a theoretical, unsaved individual in the present and assume that, in order for God to be 'just', this person must have choice to respond to the Gospel. They have choice with respect to ice cream flavours but not with regeneration. Their default position is complete deadness to God and are, therefore, destined to be without Him forever.

All are already worthy of destruction as sons and daughters of Adam. Each individual is not a new, sinless creation but chained to Adam by birth. Only new birth is a new creation. Paradise was lost to all subsequent generations. We were sold into slavery at the Fall and are bond servants to Satan and rightfully his property by virtue of our birth. God is completely just in acknowledging Satan's ownership for his own property. Judicially he has all rights to us. Predestination to hell is already in place for everyone related to Adam unless something else intervenes. It is our default position in a fallen world. God is, therefore, not lying (I think you mean seemingly unjust) when He talks about those who are fitted for destruction before they are born.

Adam was the only human who did have choice and he failed. So technically, in Adam, we are not choiceless people. We are Adam's progeny. His disobedience rendered choice impossible for us. He made the choice on our behalf. Jesus is the only one ever born without those judicial rights being owned by Satan. When Satan conspired to have Him killed, for the first time he became judicially guilty of murdering a 'free' man and is now convicted and sentenced to eternal death along with those he can still hold onto. It was a 'sting' operation perfectly designed to vanquish Satan.

This brings the question back as far as Adam but it does not answer why God allowed Adam to sin in the first place. For me, this is answered simply by understanding that the decision was made in the Godhead to elevate the Son to the highest position in the universe as Lord of Lords and God chose a path that was perfect.
We have trouble thinking in any other terms except linearly. But God does not have that restriction. When He reveals to humankind, He accommodates His words within our linear thinking for our benefit, within our bubble. But with Him, time does not exist. It is in this way that He declares that Jesus was the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

It is almost as if that decision was made and all history was subsequently allowed to unfold to accomplish that one purpose. We do not question God when, in the absence of light, darkness prevails. Why do we think that God is lying (unjust) if spiritual darkness exists and He is the one who decides where His light will shine? It's just a more complicated version of the same old "Why have you made me thus?" question.

Trouble is you don't know when those/personas/fictions (not the live born) fitted for destruction where born! Its programming/birth certificate/stock bond/slave that carries Caesars ID that makes you property of the state whether you grasp that or not its fact, not the first born of the living. Roman seven separates the fictional dead man that nothing good dwells in that mocks the younger sibling the living inner man born from above, and just like The son of Hagar and Sarah can exist together in the same body/household/mind one has to go eventually so peace can exist.

The damnation is for the strawman not the Divine spark that lights the conscience, what you are looking for is the same place you are looking from, all the outward influences/church/theological dogma/cultural etc....are feeding the son of Hagar Matt 11:11 who looks for another to come with observation Matt 11:2-3 which keeps the traditional view looking through a observational veil/flesh and blood/eyes that can't inherit the Kingdom of the Divine found within Luke 17:20-21.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:


What does Paul mean in 1Co 15:2 "unless you have believed in vain"?

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep unto memory what I preached unto you..."


"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you..."

The first part of the verse places responsibility on the believer to continue to trust and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What does Paul mean in 1Co 15:2 "unless you have believed in vain"?

Let us look at this passage and perhaps Paul is referring to these people believing in vain:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

 

[steko]

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep unto memory what I preached unto you..."


"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you..."

The first part of the verse places responsibility on the believer to continue to trust and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wouldn't that imply that believers can't legitimately claim the status of 'saved' and that the better term would be 'probation' with a hope to be 'saved' at the end of one's life having 'held on' adequately through life?

 

[steko]

Let us look at this passage and perhaps Paul is referring to these people believing in vain:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

I think that would be parallel in a different context of pre-cross and the requisite belief of the 'people' to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was Israel's promised Messiah/Son of David.

In 1Co 15, I think that those who have believed in vain are those who have not believed in the literal, physical resurrection of Christ and I believe that fact is requisite in this dispensation post-cross for salvation.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Wouldn't that imply that believers can't legitimately claim the status of 'saved' and that the better term would be 'probation' with a hope to be 'saved' at the end of one's life having 'held on' adequately through life?

When one lets go of the life preserver, they are no longer saved.

Paul's sentiment here echoes Jesus in the sower and the seed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think that would be parallel in a different context of pre-cross and the requisite belief of the 'people' to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was Israel's promised Messiah/Son of David.

Is it not possible that some of those miracle-made believers were in view at 1 Corinthians 15:2?

In 1Co 15, I think that those who have believed in vain are those who have not believed in the literal, physical resurrection of Christ and I believe that fact is requisite in this dispensation post-cross for salvation.

In that chapter I see no mention of anyone holding that belief. Could you tell me specifically where I can find those who believed that way?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When one lets go of the life preserver, they are no longer saved.

The Greek word translated "saved" means to "keep safe and sound" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

If someone is eventually not kept "safe and sound" then that means that they were never saved in the first place.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The Greek word translated "saved" means to "keep safe and sound" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

If someone is eventually not kept "safe and sound" then that means that they were never saved in the first place.

Im sorry Jerry that doesnt seem logical. One could be safe and sound one day and then disaster could strike.

 

[Danoh]

....

In 1Co 15, I think that those who have believed in vain are those who have not believed in the literal, physical resurrection of Christ and I believe that fact is requisite in this dispensation post-cross for salvation.

Actually, the entire scope of the chapter is the Resurrection's VALIDITY.

In other words, what Paul is asserting is that IF the Resurrection of Christ ITSELF had not been true than THEIR HAVING BELIEVED that Christ died for their sins, and rose again, had been belief in a vain, or baseless myth.

The ASSURANCE of THEIR resurrection one day is based on the FACT of HIS having RISEN from the dead.

Paul is asserting THE BASIS to said BELIEVERS upon which THEY can be SAVED FROM THE FALSE IDEA of some that Christ had not risen from the dead, and as a result, that there was NO resurrection for THEM either.

This is why Paul writes his answer to that as he does - he does not merely relate that Christ died for our sins, nor merely that He rose again from the dead - RATHER "that Chist died for sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, and that He rose again ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES."

In other words, he is asserting they can rest in the FACT of the Lord's Resurrection, and thus, in the promise of their own - they can rest in Paul's assertion about that - IT it is ACCORDING TO or IN ALIGNMENT WITH The Scriptures.

Reminds me of how the Lord Himself used The Scriptures to prove His Resurrection to the Twelve in Luke 24, even though He was standing right there with them; having risen from the dead.

"Thus it is written, and thus it behoved" the Lord Himself had said unto them that day, as He'd pointed out passage after passage to them.

Anyway, Paul then goes into various examples ALL meant to lend FURTHER SUPPORT to his assertion that THEIR HAVING BELIEVED in the Resurrection was NOT in vain.

Paul adresses something similar in....

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Which matches, the following...

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

JohnW brought it out nicely, as well....

1 Corinthians 15 KJV

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Actually, the entire scope of the chapter is the Resurrection's VALIDITY.

OK, I see it now.

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Im sorry Jerry that doesnt seem logical. One could be safe and sound one day and then disaster could strike.

The words "to be kept safe and sound" are in regard to a particular danger. If a believer is "saved" from everlasting destruction then he will be kept safe and sound from that destruction. If he is not kept safe and sound from that destruction then that means he was never saved in the first place.

 

[Danoh]

OK, I see it now.

Thanks!

You might want to reread it, as I just now edited it, adding some more as well

By the way, how is your health, dear brother - may you be well.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The words "to be kept safe and sound" are in regard to a particular danger. If a believer is "saved" from everlasting destruction then he will be kept safe and sound from that destruction. If he is not kept safe and sound from that destruction then that means he was never saved in the first place.

Christ saves us from "everlasting destruction". He is the life saver. What stops a free willed person from walking away from Him?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Why would Paul give this warning if there were no danger?

A danger ignored is most dangerous.

The warning is given to help keep us safe.