Battle Talk ~ BR XI
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theo_victis
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Why dont you just answer the question?
There are some other issues that may help bring focus to this debate:
1. When speaking of governments or "the powers that be", is the control of these systems of God or of Satan? Even though God can use a government for His particular purposes there is a very real sense in which all political systems lie in the hands of the evil one
'Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.' Mat 4:8-10
It seems from this passage that the kingdoms of the world are Satan's to offer (notice that Jesus did not try to correct him on the points of authority or ownership)
2. The whole issue of the death penalty with respect to christians finds a corollary with the issue of christians and military conflict. Some would argue christians should fight and others would argue that this could lead to horrific situations where christians are murdering christians on either side of opposing forces. Again, I believe the Scriptures to be very clear on this subject
'Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence' Joh 18:36
Frankly, I was a little surprised that a subject such as capital punishment would ever be an issue that needed to be debated by christians. There is no political, educational, judicial or system that a christian is called upon to proclaim or defend. The christian is called to preach the Kingdom of God. In Christ or without Him the Kingdom will come and at this time the death penalty will be executed with infinite and perfect justice. Whether or not the scales are balanced at this time we can be sure that the Judge of all the earth will ultimately measure out justice perfectly to all when the books are opened and every life is brought to account.
Clearly a christian has no part and should have no interest in defending the death penalty - what a pitiful, misguided waste of time and energy. Turbo, assuming you are a christian, do you know what Spirit you have in you?
'And they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them [death penalty], even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them'
1. When speaking of governments or "the powers that be", is the control of these systems of God or of Satan? Even though God can use a government for His particular purposes there is a very real sense in which all political systems lie in the hands of the evil one
'Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.' Mat 4:8-10
It seems from this passage that the kingdoms of the world are Satan's to offer (notice that Jesus did not try to correct him on the points of authority or ownership)
2. The whole issue of the death penalty with respect to christians finds a corollary with the issue of christians and military conflict. Some would argue christians should fight and others would argue that this could lead to horrific situations where christians are murdering christians on either side of opposing forces. Again, I believe the Scriptures to be very clear on this subject
'Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence' Joh 18:36
Frankly, I was a little surprised that a subject such as capital punishment would ever be an issue that needed to be debated by christians. There is no political, educational, judicial or system that a christian is called upon to proclaim or defend. The christian is called to preach the Kingdom of God. In Christ or without Him the Kingdom will come and at this time the death penalty will be executed with infinite and perfect justice. Whether or not the scales are balanced at this time we can be sure that the Judge of all the earth will ultimately measure out justice perfectly to all when the books are opened and every life is brought to account.
Clearly a christian has no part and should have no interest in defending the death penalty - what a pitiful, misguided waste of time and energy. Turbo, assuming you are a christian, do you know what Spirit you have in you?
'And they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them [death penalty], even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them'
DEVO said:But what should Theo's or Turbo's prescribed government do?
That is the topic. Do try and keep up.
I thought this thread was to discuss the debate which relates to the christian and the death penalty. What on earth does it matter to my standing with God what the government does??
DEVO
Documenting mans devolution
The debate is "Should Christians Support the Death Penalty?"stevenw said:
In other words... imagine a nation that was completely governed the way God would want a Christian nation to be governed, from it's public policy, to its criminal justice system. Would a godly government like that execute capital criminals?
DEVO said:
This seems to have drifted a long way from where the debate finished. I don't believe this form of government will ever exist until Christ sits on the throne with the true wisdom to execute judgement with His glorified servants. So why speculate on what will NEVER be until then. You might find a pseudo christian government 'cause George Dubya was governor who believed (and probably still does) in the death penalty and calls himself a christian. The problem is that we have no example that comes from Jesus Himself who had the means and the opportunity to implement the death penalty but never did and He called us to follow His example.
DEVO said:
The Jewish legal experts actually challended Jesus on the point of the death penalty and His response was that if it were to be implemented they would all be executed forthwith:
'So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst' Joh 8:7-9
The reaction tells the story - all are deserving of the punishment that they prescribe
My prediction is that if this 'christian' state was established upon the principles of Levitical Law then it would be the shortest reign in history as everyone would immediatiely be sentenced to death and incorporating Turbo's prescription for brevity, we could probably rap the whole thing up in a day or two (although brevity seems to be in tension with suffering and pain to some extent following Turbo's other condition for the DP)
theLawRocks
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Jesus did not invalidate the law
Jesus did not invalidate the law
Are you both intentionally taking this out of context? We know that this was a set-up by the Pharisees (Jn 8:6). Why? Because Israel was under Roman rule, which prohibited the Pharisees the role of judge. Why did God take this away? Because they didn't follow God's law either!! Not because God's law wasn't good.. It was still good. (See Jesus (Mt 5:17-18, Mt 28:20, Rev 22 )
Jesus didn’t argue that the stoning wasn't justified. He said go ahead... but also brought to their remembrance the law that they had broken... does this mean that they were also due the DP? Not necessarily, but it does indicate that they recognized their hypocrisy.
What does the fact that Jesus did not condemn her mean? Some here have determined that it means the law is obsolete. Jesus didn't defend the law. As God, He could have declared that He was above the Roman government. He could have and this was what the Pharisees were hoping He'd do. The trap...
But Jesus was on a different mission. He was not here (at that moment in time) to condemn the world. He was here to set all things right and establish Godly rule ver the earth. As SevenW points out He will condemn next time He comes, with His law in full force...
The fact that He did not condemn does not mean that he invalidated the law.
The Law is still GOOD.
Jesus did not invalidate the law
stevenw said:
Chileice said:
Are you both intentionally taking this out of context? We know that this was a set-up by the Pharisees (Jn 8:6). Why? Because Israel was under Roman rule, which prohibited the Pharisees the role of judge. Why did God take this away? Because they didn't follow God's law either!! Not because God's law wasn't good.. It was still good. (See Jesus (Mt 5:17-18, Mt 28:20, Rev 22 )
Jesus didn’t argue that the stoning wasn't justified. He said go ahead... but also brought to their remembrance the law that they had broken... does this mean that they were also due the DP? Not necessarily, but it does indicate that they recognized their hypocrisy.
What does the fact that Jesus did not condemn her mean? Some here have determined that it means the law is obsolete. Jesus didn't defend the law. As God, He could have declared that He was above the Roman government. He could have and this was what the Pharisees were hoping He'd do. The trap...
But Jesus was on a different mission. He was not here (at that moment in time) to condemn the world. He was here to set all things right and establish Godly rule ver the earth. As SevenW points out He will condemn next time He comes, with His law in full force...
The fact that He did not condemn does not mean that he invalidated the law.
The Law is still GOOD.
theLawRocks
New member
I have to fix my mistake. I'm sure there is a proper way to do this but..
But Jesus was on a different mission. He was not here (at that moment in time) to condemn the world. He was NOT here to set all things right and establish Godly rule over the earth. But, As SevenW points out He will righteously condemn next time He comes, with His law in full force...
It should have been:theLawRocks said:
But Jesus was on a different mission. He was not here (at that moment in time) to condemn the world. He was NOT here to set all things right and establish Godly rule over the earth. But, As SevenW points out He will righteously condemn next time He comes, with His law in full force...
I agree, the Law is good and the commandment is holy as the Scriptures state but as has been mentioned, I am sure, it is also our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The law gives life to sin and we die as Paul points out. The wages of sin is death - physical, spirtitual and eternal. He who is guilty of transgressing one commandment is guilty of transgressing ALL of the law. I will not belabour the point by quoting the relevant passages as we should all be very familiar with them.theLawRocks said:
The death penalty will most certainly be ultimately carried out on all men - it is appointed unto men once to die . . . The question is whether christians have any part in the implelmentation of this just sentence that the law demands. The answer to this is of course a resounding NO. The mission of Jesus (as you mention) was to seek and to save that which is lost. How is your mission as a christian any different to the mission of your Lord? Where do we have the example of Jesus recommending a quick trial and execution that should be suitably painful either by example or command?
There will come a time for the ultimate Judge of all to execute that judgement but we live in the time of grace. Remember, while we were yet sinners (i.e., deserving of the death penalty) Jesus loved us and died for us. Murderers and liars equally have an eternity to spend in hell fire and our pathetic attempts to reflect justice whith our insignificant legal codes for crime and punishment in the awesome presence of an infinitely Holy God only reflect our ignorance of how repulsive our sins are and how blurred our sense of values
Do you really want to contend that those ready to stone the adulteress were not also worthy of the death penalty?
theo_victis
New member
Wha?!?! No. The debate question was, should Christians support the DP? not, Should christians living in a utopia support the DP. The question is not about governments, it is about whether or not christians should support seeing anyone be put to death (guilty or innocent).
theo_victis
New member
This is a great point!!! This is why we need to take Jesus' commands not to judge hypocritically serious. We should not condemn others to death when we already deserve it ourselves. Jesus forgave, the early church forgave, Joseph forgave, and God the father forgave in the Bible, why shouldnt we?
Nothing wrong in saying it as long as you realize that in saying it you condemn yourself. Why single out a particular individual to say it about when the truth is that all deserve it? God has already said it. I would presume that you would not have any desire to have someone execute you for your sins, therefore how do you reconcile the central theme in the teaching of Jesus regarding human relationship which was taught to us as: 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' with an advocacy for the death penalty for others? Who gives you the right to advocate the death penalty without being willing to partake in it yourself? Herein lies the the hypocrisy.Delmar said:
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