Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[stevenw]

I was just wondering if you would say the same thing about abortion.

Do I believe abortion is a sin and in fact murder? - absolutely! Do I think a christian should be advocating a system that lines up abortionists and women who have had abortions against a wall and shoots them? - absolutely not! I think a christian is here to call sinners to come to repentance through the Blood of Jesus Christ. God has not called me to political activism but to christian service. He washed me from my filth and delayed my execution so that I could come to know Him, how could I deny anyone else the same mercy that has been shown to me?

 

[rehcjam]

You [CHRISTIAN] don't do anything - 'let the dead bury their dead'. Take up your cross and follow Him

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you would say the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany. :dizzy:

 

[theo_victis]

I think a christian is here to call sinners to come to repentance through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

This right here is one of the many key fundamental differences between the kill them all philosophy and the forgive them all philosophy. How can a sinner come to Christ if our chief goal is to make sure they are put to death?

 

[theo_victis]

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you would say the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany.

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you are willing to put Jews, Nazis, Christians, Athiests, Adulterers, Murderers, Cacuasians, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Americans, Arabs, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Europeans, Women, Men, and a score of Children to death because if you advocate the DP to the fullest everyone deserves it.

 

[stevenw]

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you would say the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany. :dizzy:

I don't know if you have ever read the passage where Jesus makes the statement that I refer to but it is worth a mention. The man, no doubt grief stricken wants to bury his father and Jesus says, 'let the dead bury their dead - go preach the kingdom of God' Lk 9:59,60. I don't know how his father died, the passage is silent in this regard. He is just as dead as any Jew that perished in the holocaust. A sinful world is full of grief, horror, sadness, injustice etc but what has this got to do with the role of the christian in advocating or campaigning regarding the operation of a criminal justice system. Did Paul have the christians in Rome or Corinth organising political rallies and engaging in social commentary on the operation of the Roman jurisprudential system and whether crucifixion was a painful enough way to be executed? NO! They preached the gospel and turned the world upside down through foolish teaching that a carpenter crucified is the salvation of the world.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you are willing to put Jews, Nazis, Christians, Athiests, Adulterers, Murderers, Cacuasians, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Americans, Arabs, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Europeans, Women, Men, and a score of Children to death because if you advocate the DP to the fullest everyone deserves it.

Not true. The death penalty should only be used for people who committ an act of crime. You cannot police thoughts nor does God do so in any of HIS CRIMINAL CODE. I realize your differs greatly, but we should listen to God, not you.

 

[rehcjam]

I'm sorry, I was just wondering if you are willing to put Jews, Nazis, Christians, Athiests, Adulterers, Murderers, Cacuasians, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Americans, Arabs, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Europeans, Women, Men, and a score of Children to death because if you advocate the DP to the fullest everyone deserves it.

Come on Theo, should we not have fought the Nazis now? If we lived in Nazi Germany should we not try to help the Jews? h :bang:

 

[rehcjam]

I don't know if you have ever read the passage where Jesus makes the statement that I refer to but it is worth a mention. The man, no doubt grief stricken wants to bury his father and Jesus says, 'let the dead bury their dead - go preach the kingdom of God' Lk 9:59,60. I don't know how his father died, the passage is silent in this regard. He is just as dead as any Jew that perished in the holocaust. A sinful world is full of grief, horror, sadness, injustice etc but what has this got to do with the role of the christian in advocating or campaigning regarding the operation of a criminal justice system. Did Paul have the christians in Rome or Corinth organising political rallies and engaging in social commentary on the operation of the Roman jurisprudential system and whether crucifixion was a painful enough way to be executed? NO! They preached the gospel and turned the world upside down through foolish teaching that a carpenter crucified is the salvation of the world.

I'm confused, so we shouldn't help the Jews or try to stop someone from killing their child? :doh:
What if someone needed to go to the hospital, can we stop and give them a ride or should we ignore them and turn the world upside down?

 

[stevenw]

Not true. The death penalty should only be used for people who committ an act of crime.

Says who? Certainly not God. He who lusts is guilty of adultery, he who hates is guilty of murder

You cannot police thoughts nor does God do so in any of HIS CRIMINAL CODE. I realize your differs greatly, but we should listen to God, not you.

Indeed, then listen to God: A greater than Moses was in the world (God incarnate) and said these things. Your thoughts are not in sinc with God's thoughts on this issue. Jesus didn't destroy the Law, He gave it it's fullest meaning. The sentence is death for all as all have sinned otherwise Christ is dead in vain (Gal 2:21). You are selective in your application of the law but you cannot be as he that keeps the law is debtor to the whole law and he offends in one point is guilty of the whole law. Therefore you better sharpen that axe as there certainly are a lot of heads that need to roll as Theo correctly points out unless you want us to swallow some perverse understanding of the death penalty that revolves around the pathetic laws of man as compared to the law of God

 

[stevenw]

I'm confused, so we shouldn't help the Jews or try to stop someone from killing their child? :doh:
What if someone needed to go to the hospital, can we stop and give them a ride or should we ignore them and turn the world upside down?

What if the sea was boiling hot and what if pigs had wings? You should write headlines for the liberal press. Sensational stuff, unfortunately unrelated to the truth of what was said and off topic. Would Jesus show mercy to those suffering? Go thou and do likewise! Would Jesus march His band of disciples into Rome to seek reform of the political system? Go thou and do likewise!

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Says who? Certainly not God. He who lusts is guilty of adultery, he who hates is guilty of murder.

Jesus said that whoever lusts has committed adultry in his heart. YOU added that they deserve the death penalty. Even Jesus did not say that. God gave hundreds of commands in the Bible, some deal with acts and others with thoughts and desires. God never commands the death penalty for a desire, but only for acts. Jesus dealt with murder on a personal level. He told the people that even if they didn't commit the murder, they could still be guilty in their heart of murder (pointing out a sin - not a crime).

The sentence is death for all as all have sinned otherwise Christ is dead in vain (Gal 2:21).

You are confusing the death penalty, with the fact that we all die. They are not the same thing. I agree that we all deserve to die - and we all shall. However that is a moot point when debating the death penaly.

You are selective in your application of the law but you cannot be as he that keeps the law is debtor to the whole law and he offends in one point is guilty of the whole law.

Right .. .by the law we are all sinners and desearve death - and we will get it. This is neither here nor there as to whether or not criminals should receive the death penalty. That we all deserve death doesn't mean that God has asked the courts to execute the death penalty to all men. God picked certain crimes to enforce the death penalty on. Although some were specifically symbolic for Israel, still today the moral code against murder, rape, and kidnapping should at the least be given the death penalty.

Perhaps you are unaware that some sins in the Bible are punished by restitution, or by corporal punishment, and some sins are not punished at all.

Therefore you better sharpen that axe as there certainly are a lot of heads that need to roll as Theo correctly points out unless you want us to swallow some perverse understanding of the death penalty that revolves around the pathetic laws of man as compared to the law of God.

That's a poorly thought out argument. God's plan in the Bible did not have Isreal killing most of its people. That alone should have let Theo realize that what he was saying and what the Bible says do not line up.

"Will you pollute me amoung my people .... to save the souls alive that should not live?"

Apparently Theo would like to pollute God in such a manner.

 

[rehcjam]

What if the sea was boiling hot and what if pigs had wings? You should write headlines for the liberal press. Sensational stuff, unfortunately unrelated to the truth of what was said and off topic. Would Jesus show mercy to those suffering? Go thou and do likewise! Would Jesus march His band of disciples into Rome to seek reform of the political system? Go thou and do likewise!

I'm sorry, what if it was just that his car was broken down? :car:

 

[theo_victis]

Not true. The death penalty should only be used for people who committ an act of crime. You cannot police thoughts nor does God do so in any of HIS CRIMINAL CODE. I realize your differs greatly, but we should listen to God, not you.

So not everyone deserves the death penalty? Tell me, how can you be deserving of eternal death but not earthly death? Isnt that odd that you suppose we all deserve to go to hell (which is a lot worse) but not capital punishment?

I am not differing from God's laws at all. You are making this loop hole so that you can be scotch free of any guilt. Thought police?!?! God certainly judges our hearts. Of course I cannot police thoughts, did you read the debate? I stated that we should let God be judge and not man. Oh well, chalk one up for ignorance!

Anyways, you mentioned we should listen to God, so, lets give that a try:

Jer 11:20 But, O LORD Almighty, you who judge righteously
and test the heart and mind,

Hmm... God does monitor our hearts! Who would have thunk it!

Deu 26:16 The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deu 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Psa 119:34 Give me understanding, and I will keep your law
and obey it with all my heart.

It appears that at the heart of obedience is, well, the heart!


So lets see what Jesus says:

Mat 5:21-29 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[1] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' (22) But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[2] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[3] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (23) "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, (24) leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (25) "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. (26) I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[4] (27) "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[5] (28) But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (29) If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Jesus is judging men certainly by the heart! It is here where disobedience to God's laws occur. If you lust in your heart you are already committing adultery. What would Jews in Jesus' day would have thought about adulterers?

Well John 8 gives us a good example. They would stone them to death! How could you say that an action is only condemning for death if it is carried out when scripture points out otherwise?

Let's say a man plots to go into a kindergarden school and shoot and kill 30 children. He ponders this to the fullest. He knows the time of the event, what type of gun he will use, how he will enter the school and everything! However, police foil his attempt before anything ever happens. Not one shot was fired. Does he deserve the DP? Of course! Because if he would have not been stopped he would have shot and killed 30 six year olds!

 

[stevenw]

Jesus said that whoever lusts has committed adultry in his heart. YOU added that they deserve the death penalty. Even Jesus did not say that. God gave hundreds of commands in the Bible, some deal with acts and others with thoughts and desires. God never commands the death penalty for a desire, but only for acts. Jesus dealt with murder on a personal level. He told the people that even if they didn't commit the murder, they could still be guilty in their heart of murder (pointing out a sin - not a crime).

This is not at all what He said - better dust off that Bible:

'Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire' Mat 5:21,22

'The judgement' is directly referrent to the DP: 'everyone that kills his neighbour with his hand; as if he strikes him with a sword, or with a stone that kills him; or strangles him till he die; or burns him in fire; seeing he kills him in any manner, in his own person, lo! such an one must be put to death' The obvoius implication is that he who is angry with his brother deserves the DP

You are confusing the death penalty, with the fact that we all die. They are not the same thing. I agree that we all deserve to die - and we all shall. However that is a moot point when debating the death penaly.

This is a pure sophistry:

Assertion 1: We are all deserving of death under the law
Assertion 2: To deserve the death penalty under the law is not the same as deserving death under the law
Assertion 1 denied: We are not all deserving of death under the law

Right .. .by the law we are all sinners and desearve death - and we will get it. This is neither here nor there as to whether or not criminals should receive the death penalty. That we all deserve death doesn't mean that God has asked the courts to execute the death penalty to all men. God picked certain crimes to enforce the death penalty on. Although some were specifically symbolic for Israel, still today the moral code against murder, rape, and kidnapping should at the least be given the death penalty.

This is invalid reasoning - you divide the law and it is not to be divided. It is not for you to say which parts are more important than others: 'The law is good and the commandment is HOLY' What you call a criminal is just a transgressor of the law - semantics once again

Perhaps you are unaware that some sins in the Bible are punished by restitution, or by corporal punishment, and some sins are not punished at all.

Perhaps you are not aware that all our sins are so abominable to a Holy God that He Himself had to die in order to save us from those sins. ALL LIARS will spend eternity in hell (Rev 21:8). Fancy putting liars in there for eternity? Doesn't seem such a big deal in the scheme of things - what about those little white lies?

That's a poorly thought out argument. God's plan in the Bible did not have Isreal killing most of its people. That alone should have let Theo realize that what he was saying and what the Bible says do not line up.

God's tolerance and progressive revelation of truth does not obfiscate the full revelation of the true sinful condemned state of man in the holy court of God's justice and the infinite Sacrifice that had to be paid to redeem us.[/QUOTE]

 

[theo_victis]

That's a poorly thought out argument. God's plan in the Bible did not have Isreal killing most of its people. That alone should have let Theo realize that what he was saying and what the Bible says do not line up.

I will offer four arguments against your claim:

1. Why would God have so many statutes mandating death if he wasnt serious about it? Having tons of laws mandating the DP is pretty much a plan to weed out any bit of evil. That sounds like God's plan to me.

2. Early on Israel did stone people.

Jos 7:20-26 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD , the God of Israel. This is what I have done: (21) When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [6] two hundred shekels [7] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [8] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath." (22) So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver underneath. (23) They took the things from the tent, brought them to Joshua and all the Israelites and spread them out before the LORD . (24) Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. (25) Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. (26) Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor [9] ever since.


3. Do you remember the exiles God sent Israel and Judah into and the countless slaughterings Israel and Judah took? Israel, with great kings and governing officials such as the murderous adulterous David, adulterous Solomon and so forth didnt really obey God's decrees to begin with, so why would we see Israel excerising justice when she was evil? God took matters into his own hands and into his own hands we should let it remain.

4. Just because it wasnt recorded doesnt mean it didnt happen. The Bible doesnt tell us every bit of history!!!!

"Will you pollute me amoung my people .... to save the souls alive that should not live?"

Apparently Theo would like to pollute God in such a manner.

Do you think you are a soul that deserves to live?

 

[rehcjam]

I don't know if you have ever read the passage where Jesus makes the statement that I refer to but it is worth a mention. The man, no doubt grief stricken wants to bury his father and Jesus says, 'let the dead bury their dead - go preach the kingdom of God' Lk 9:59,60. I don't know how his father died, the passage is silent in this regard. He is just as dead as any Jew that perished in the holocaust. A sinful world is full of grief, horror, sadness, injustice etc but what has this got to do with the role of the christian in advocating or campaigning regarding the operation of a criminal justice system. Did Paul have the christians in Rome or Corinth organising political rallies and engaging in social commentary on the operation of the Roman jurisprudential system and whether crucifixion was a painful enough way to be executed? NO! They preached the gospel and turned the world upside down through foolish teaching that a carpenter crucified is the salvation of the world.

I once had a pastor say pretty much the exact same thing. He was a very passionate man and he got up and railed and railed just to try and stop people from trying to stop others from killing their children. Christ said that we should love our neighbors but people can use almost any excuse not too and it seems very odd to use the excuse “I have to follow Christ instead”. It is very hard to separate the Gospel from loving your neighbor. A good Samaritan knew this but a priest and a Levite did not. Go Figure.

It is the same as today and it is the same with murder, if we love (truly love, not hypocritically) our neighbors we will want to see their murderers executed. But not just for the murdered but for the murderer. Execution is far more merciful than prison. A murderer may kill someone but he destroys himself. I contend that it is far worse to be a murderer than to be murdered. (I am trying to type murder ten times real fast). A murderer destroys his soul.

You guys should come protest abortion and witness all the destroyed lives. You should come and witness how hard peoples hearts are just because abortion is legal. They see the signs and they mock them then they kill their child. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom but they are not even afraid to murder an innocent child. This is not a hypothetical and it is not sensational it is everyday and everywhere.
You guys should join the battle. :thumb:

 

[theo_victis]

Jesus said that whoever lusts has committed adultry in his heart. YOU added that they deserve the death penalty. Even Jesus did not say that. God gave hundreds of commands in the Bible, some deal with acts and others with thoughts and desires. God never commands the death penalty for a desire, but only for acts. Jesus dealt with murder on a personal level. He told the people that even if they didn't commit the murder, they could still be guilty in their heart of murder (pointing out a sin - not a crime).

I am confused, so if I commit crimes I am not committing sin? That would be odd to preach on a Sunday.

 

[theo_victis]

It is the same as today and it is the same with murder, if we love (truly love, not hypocritically) our neighbors we will want to see their murderers executed.

What if the murderer is our neighbor? hehe. I think you are being to literalistic. If I love a murderer I should want to see them dead? Ok. How about if I hate him. So when Jesus said love your enemies what he really meant was hate them good. Hate them hard. Kill'em because it is the loving thing to do. You know, it is quite common to see love and death go hand in hand. (note sarcasm)


Jesus said Love your enemies, how do hating and loving your enemies differ?

A good Samaritan knew this but a priest and a Levite did not. Go Figure.

You obviously do not know your history to swell! Samaritans were hated enemies of Jews because they would often rob and kill Jews. Not to mention that Samaritans ransacked the holy temple of God once and spread detestable pig blood all over it. They tortured Jewish kids and it goes on and on. Priests and levites, on the other hand, were considfered great people who were blameless. Go figure that the good guy in the story was actually the one people hated. Go figure.

It is the same as today and it is the same with murder, if we love (truly love, not hypocritically) our neighbors we will want to see their murderers executed.

Remember when the early church in Acts stoned Paul to death for his atrocities? Oh wait.

Execution is far more merciful than prison.

Says who? I will tell ya, at least in American prisons, I would rather be sent to life in prison then get the electric chair!

A murderer may kill someone but he destroys himself. I contend that it is far worse to be a murderer than to be murdered

I think we all agree.

A murderer destroys his soul.

So, instead of being merciful, loving, forgiving and trying to restore this person's soul we just kill him and let him burn in hell because we hate...er... I mean love him. Right?

You guys should come protest abortion and witness all the destroyed lives.

I would like to note something ironic here: Here is someone prolife who is pro death when it comes down to the death penalty. That just sounds funny.

 

[stevenw]

They see the signs and they mock them then they kill their child. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom but they are not even afraid to murder an innocent child. This is not a hypothetical and it is not sensational it is everyday and everywhere. You guys should join the battle. :thumb:

I have no reason to doubt your sincerity in relation to the tragedy of abortion but your heart should be toward the lost wherever they maybe. 'He that winneth souls is wise'. A prison ministry to death row inmates or to mothers after they have had an abortion is just as valid as ministering to those contemplating the act of abortion. All of the angels of heaven will rejoice over any single sinner that repents and you will share some heavenly real estate with murderers that have repented (now called saints). It is never an act of mercy or love to execute a lost soul and as a christian, you need to come to terms with this.

 

[rehcjam]

I am confused, so if I commit crimes I am not committing sin? That would be odd to preach on a Sunday.

“deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” –that is Paul speaking restoratively


Theo, there is nothing to be confused about. All (true) crimes are sins but not all sins are crimes. I know that you are much smarter than this. These posts do not even compare to your BR posts. I know that it is a lot to take in but Turbo posted very well, it was a good rebuke. You should sit back and try to take some of it in. No insults here, you did very well in the BR but these things you are confused about you really shouldn’t be. Just take some of the things that have already been posted. Just take some time with it, it is not that hard. You cannot be nicer than God. :guitar: