Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Sharri]

I'm not sure what you mean by either phrase, but I'm not saying that salvation has anything to do with obeying or enforcing good laws. But there are may benefits to doing things God's way. He's much wiser than we are and we should submit to and trust in His wisdom.

(I'm not sure if that's what you are asking.)

I agree in doing things God's way. Referring to "Just" You mention the criminal on the cross that asked Jesus to remember him when He is in His Kingdom. The criminal was he just in his knowing for what he did and accepts the punishment, is this the reason why Jesus declare him righteousness? Would it be different if he didn't believe in Jesus?

 

[Sharri]

If you like I can send you the link to her letter to Micheal.

She is against the death penalty because she blames the State of CT for assisting in his suicide. She has no "justice is served". Aren't we as Christians should support our governing authorities regardless of the outcome, isn't this part of being just in our laws?


In part of the letter she blames God for allowing him to kill her friend, and forgives him (Ross) for killing her friend, so she seeks forgiveness.
Isn't blaming God blasaphme or no?

 

[Sharri]

Death Penalty article 1

Death Penalty article 1

To Push Death Penalty Or Not

Prosecutors Asked In Court To Explain How They Decide
February 24, 2007
By TINA A. BROWN, Courant Staff Writer


Five of the state's top prosecutors - who usually ask the questions in court - were forced to answer them on the witness stand Friday as defense lawyers for a convicted murderer mounted a challenge to the constitutionality of the state's death penalty.

Compelled to testify by the state Supreme Court, the prosecutors appeared in Superior Court in Hartford to answer questions about how they decide whether to seek the death penalty. Seven more top prosecutors are scheduled to testify next month.

Lawyers for Jesse Campbell III, who faces a possible death sentence for murdering two Hartford women, claim Connecticut's death-penalty law is unconstitutional because prosecutors act in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner when considering capital punishment.

Chief State's Attorney Kevin Kane and state's attorneys from four judicial districts all said they rely on the death penalty law - which spells out crimes for which the death penalty can be sought and factors that must be considered - plus the code of prosecutors' ethics.

Questioned by Ronald Gold, one of Campbell's lawyers, all five said their offices had no written standards or guidelines.

Campbell was convicted by a Superior Court jury in Hartford in 2004 of capital felony, murder and other charges in the killings of LaTaysha Logan and Desiree Privette and the wounding of Privette's aunt, Carolyn Privette, in Hartford.

Capital felony carries only two penalties - death or life in prison. The jury deadlocked when considering whether Campbell should be executed, and Judge Edward J. Mullarkey declared a mistrial in the penalty phase. A new jury will decide Campbell's penalty.

The only state's attorney not subpoenaed to testify was Hartford's James Thomas, whose office is prosecuting Campbell.

Friday's highly unusual proceeding attracted a crowd of spectators, including lawyers, assistant state's attorneys, clerks, interns and at least one judge. The prosecutors had tried to quash defense lawyers' subpoenas, but state Supreme Court Justice Joette Katz rejected their motion in August, forcing them to testify in Mullarkey's courtroom.

Kane, the state's top law enforcement officer, testified first, followed by state's attorneys from the Windham, Middlesex, New Britain and Ansonia/Milford judicial districts.

Kane gave the most detailed answers. He said in his current position, as supervisor of all state's attorneys in Connecticut, and during his more than a decade as New London state's attorney, he used an "operating assumption" that if assistants in his office planned to charge a defendant with capital felony, they would discuss the matter with him first.

"Because of the nature of the case, I expect the assistants to talk to me. I expect assistants to have common sense in cases that would have a significant relevance or impact," Kane said.

Gold's question about the thought process that Kane uses when deciding not to seek the death penalty drew objections from the assistant state's attorneys prosecuting Campbell, Vicki Melchiorre and Dennis O'Connor. They claimed the question violated Kane's "prosecutorial discretion," and Mullarkey agreed.

While Kane was sometimes jovial, Windham County State's Attorney Patricia Froehlich was often lawyerly, but clearly realized her role had been reversed.

"I'm accustomed to being on the other side," she said at one point.

"I know I can't object," she said later. "I can't answer it that way."

Ansonia/Milford State's Attorney Kevin Lawlor was the only witness who said he had received extensive training on how to weigh capital punishment.

Middlesex State's Attorney Timothy J. Liston said several factors were critical. "You better have the facts and the law behind you before you can charge," he said. He added that since he took his job five years ago, "we haven't had a case that met all the criteria."

New Britain State's Attorney Scott J. Murphy said he went by the book the one time he charged a defendant with capital felony. That book was the state law.

All of the prosecutors said they were aware that a panel of senior state's attorneys was created to advise their less experienced colleagues when they had questions about charging a defendant with capital felony. But none of the five said they had used that process.

The hearing is scheduled to resume March 23.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-campbell0224.artfeb24,0,6328415.story

 

[Sharri]

Capital felony carries only two penalties - death or life in prison. The jury deadlocked when considering whether Campbell should be executed, and Judge Edward J. Mullarkey declared a mistrial in the penalty phase. A new jury will decide Campbell's penalty.

If the jury was deadlock on considering if Campbell should be executed, why did the judge declare a mistrial? What did he base his decision on?


"

Because of the nature of the case, I expect the assistants to talk to me. I expect assistants to have common sense in cases that would have a significant relevance or impact," Kane said.

Common sense? What significant relevance are you to expect in a case like this?

Gold's question about the thought process that Kane uses when deciding not to seek the death penalty drew objections from the assistant state's attorneys prosecuting Campbell, Vicki Melchiorre and Dennis O'Connor. They claimed the question violated Kane's "prosecutorial discretion," and Mullarkey agreed.

Not seeking the death penatly?

Ansonia/Milford State's Attorney Kevin Lawlor was the only witness who said he had received extensive training on how to weigh capital punishment.

How do you recieve extensive training in how to weigh capital punishment?

Middlesex State's Attorney Timothy J. Liston said several factors were critical. "You better have the facts and the law behind you before you can charge," he said. He added that since he took his job five years ago, "we haven't had a case that met all the criteria."

Exactly what criteria are you looking for? What is all the criteria?

 

[Sharri]

Turbo,

If Campbell admits killing these women, why is it so difficult for our government to make a decison on death penalty or life in prison? Does our government have to go through all the steps in convicting someone that is admitting in murdering these women, why even get a jury, why not cut to the chase like God says?

either way you look at it, there are many steps in convicting someone with the death penalty, if Campbell is convicted he will end up on death row for 16-20 yrs, like Ross did.



Ecclesiastes 8:11 - Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

Is this what God tells us what happens to those that commit captial crimes when execution is not done quickly?

 

[Sharri]

death penalty article 2

death penalty article 2

State's attorneys quizzed on stand about death penalty
February 24, 2007
Associated Press HARTFORD, Conn. -- Five of the state's top prosecutors found themselves in an unusual spot Friday - on the witness stand.

This time they were grilled by defense lawyers for condemned murderer Jessie Campbell in a challenge to the constitutionality of the state's death penalty.

Campbell, who killed two Hartford women in 2000, was convicted in 2004 but the jury deadlocked when considering whether he should be executed. A second jury handed down the death penalty in October, but a judge has not formally imposed the sentence.

His lawyers had argued that prosecutors act in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner on deciding when to seek the death penalty. After clearing a few legal hurdles - a final one at the state Supreme Court level - defense lawyers compelled the prosecutors to testify.

Chief State's Attorney Kevin Kane and top prosecutors from four judicial districts all said they rely on the death penalty law, which spells out crimes the death penalty can be sought for and factors that must be considered, in addition to the code of prosecutors' ethics.

Under questioning by Ronald Gold, a lawyer for Campbell, all acknowledged said their offices had no written standards or guidelines.

Kane said that during his tenure as New London state's attorney, he expected assistants to discuss a case with him if they intended to charge a defendant with a capital felony.

"Because of the nature of the case, I expect the assistants to talk to me. I expect assistants to have common sense in cases that would have a significant relevance or impact," Kane said.

Campbell was convicted of capital felony, murder and other charges in the killings of LaTaysha Logan and Desiree Privette and the wounding of Privette's aunt, Carolyn Privette, in Hartford.

The only state's attorney not subpoenaed to testify was Hartford's James Thomas, whose office prosecuted Campbell.

Middlesex State's Attorney Timothy J. Liston said several factors were critical.

"You better have the facts and the law behind you before you can charge," he said.

The hearing will continue March 23.


http://www.courant.com/news/local/statewire/hc-24121054.apds.m0326.bc-ct--deatfeb24,0,4219398.story

 

[Sharri]

This time they were grilled by defense lawyers for condemned murderer Jessie Campbell in a challenge to the constitutionality of the state's death penalty.

Campbell, who killed two Hartford women in 2000, was convicted in 2004 but the jury deadlocked when considering whether he should be executed. A second jury handed down the death penalty in October, but a judge has not formally imposed the sentence.

His lawyers had argued that prosecutors act in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner on deciding when to seek the death penalty. After clearing a few legal hurdles - a final one at the state Supreme Court level - defense lawyers compelled the prosecutors to testify.

the 2nd jury handed down the death penatly, what happen to the first jury, did they go for it?

Chief State's Attorney Kevin Kane and top prosecutors from four judicial districts all said they rely on the death penalty law, which spells out crimes the death penalty can be sought for and factors that must be considered, in addition to the code of prosecutors' ethics.

What are the factors? What are the codes of ethics?


Are these lawyers looking for solid evidence, even if Campbell admits to killing these women? Isn't that enough? Should there be more than one eyewitness in convicting someone in a captial crime?


Is this biblical? What does God say about evidence and witnesses in a capital crime? Is DNA considered a witness?

 

[Sharri]

the 2nd jury handed down the death penatly, what happen to the first jury, did they go for it?



My bad, 2nd jury is for the death penatly, and also Campbell is maintaining his innocence.


It boils down to proof and evidence. I want to know is why is Campbell where he is now if he is innocent?

 

[Sharri]

Turbo,

I like to say Thank you for taking the time reading and responding to my posts. Thank you!

The Death Penalty is Just.

Just as restitution is equitable punishment for theft, death is equitable punishment for murderers. The criminal justice system God has laid out in Scripture is based on such equitable punishments:
...you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exodus 21:24-25
By definition, if a punishment is equitable, it is just.

TurboQ3: Do you agree that the death is a just and equitable penalty for committing murder? (If not, please explain.)

I agree death is just and equitable for murder, this also brings up other crimes or certain degrees of murder, manslaughter, what is equitable and just for those crimes, should they be considered to be life or death? Our governing authorities determine the outcome for these crimes; do they always determine it is just; are they Christians? Are they trying to go through the process with good intentions or are they going about it in a sinful state? Perhaps Christians should take a stronger stance, or maybe the Christian Church needs to be more active in Social Justice!

The Death Penalty is a Powerful Deterrent.

When the death penalty is administered consistently, swiftly, and painfully upon conviction of capital crimes, the incidence of those crimes is minimized.
If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:16-21

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Romans 13:1-4

Genesis 6 gives an indication of how mankind behaves when there is no threat of punishment for criminal activity. We also get an occasional glimpse of this lawlessness during a riot of in the aftermath of natural disaster; masses of people become criminals when there is no fear of being punished.

Our broken and Godless criminal justice system lands somewhere in between. Murderers, for instance, have very little chance of being sentenced to death even if the particular state allows the death penalty at all. And those who are sentenced to death are not executed until many years later (if ever), long after the public has forgotten the crime. And on those rare occasions when a murderer is actually put to death, it is carried out via painless lethal injection. Instead, our system favors prison sentences of varying lengths (which were used by the wicked nations during biblical times, but were never among the penalties authorized by God for any crime). The death penalty as it is currently in the United States has no teeth, being neither consistent not painful not speedily executed. And therefore it does little to inspire fear among the people. And as a result we have epidemic crime rates, just as Solomon warned (Ecclesiates 8:11).

Why can’t the government cut some of the in betweens and make it more swiftly?

TurboQ4: Should governing authorities punish criminals at all?

Yes they should punish criminals, isn’t this part of God handing down authority to the government to persecute those that break laws, and committing crimes.
When God removed Cain from the land that was an example of His showing us as that those with evil hearts and those that commit murder should be removed from society?


What about Pilate, when Jesus was sentenced to be crucified he was under Roman law, Pilate believed who Jesus was, what exactly was Jesus crime for being crucified, was it the power of the people that overcame Pilate in his decision? Does that make Pilate a murderer, or was he a ruler of his land obeying the laws? Does it make him just with God?

 

[Sharri]

Extradition/death penalty

Extradition/death penalty

Turbo,

Yeah I know, another ongoing case regarding the death penatly or sort of the death peantly. :think:

I didn't post the entire article, I did post some of the article.


http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-ctcipriani0327.artmar27,0,4673959.story

Two Italian courts had ruled in favor of Cipriani's extradition, but his lawyers appealed to a higher country and won, claiming Connecticut authorities have not offered his client enough protection from the death penalty. In September, the Tribunali Amministrativi Regionali (the Regional Administrative Courts) blocked Cipriani's extradition.

Italy's constitution guarantees that its citizens cannot be extradited to a country in which a suspect faces the death penalty. State prosecutors have agreed not to seek the death penalty, charging him only with three counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. None of those charges is punishable by death.

Most of what people are saying is Cipriani is stupid for fleeing, yet he seems to be the smartest one of them all, he is in his own coutry where they are against the death penalty and don’t extradite to a country where someone faces the death penalty. Tell me he didn’t know what he was doing all along.
What gets me is, first of all this state was surprised to hear about Cipiranis release from prison, maybe they don't know the Italy laws, then again it makes me wonder are they really trying to get this man extradited, I can't help but question it?

Despite the latest setback, Thomas said the chances that Cipriani will be extradited to the United States are good, but finding him may be difficult.

"I believe that the court will rule in our favor, but whether or not we'll ever get custody is another matter," Thomas said.

If Italy extradites this man, what exactly does this mean? I guess I’m a bit confused on what happens in cases like this, if Italy turns him over to the US, what happens to him, does Connecticut follow through with the charges? If he doesn't get extradited, who, and how are the decisions determined in his sentencing in Italy?

 

[Sharri]

bump

 

[Turbo]

Turbo,

If Campbell admits killing these women, why is it so difficult for our government to make a decison on death penalty or life in prison?

Because our criminal justice system is broken.

Does our government have to go through all the steps in convicting someone that is admitting in murdering these women, why even get a jury, why not cut to the chase like God says?

Good point!

either way you look at it, there are many steps in convicting someone with the death penalty, if Campbell is convicted he will end up on death row for 16-20 yrs, like Ross did.

Horrible, isn't it?

Ecclesiastes 8:11 - Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

Is this what God tells us what happens to those that commit captial crimes when execution is not done quickly?

Yes! Without the threat of appropriate punishments carried out quickly, many more people are emboldened to commit crimes.


It's like, people know that smoking cigarettes will likely kill you some day, but that isn't a very powerful deterrent; many people smoke despite the risk. If smoking a cigarette would almost surely kill you within a few hours or days, almost no one would ever smoke a cigarette.

 

[Turbo]

I agree death is just and equitable for murder, this also brings up other crimes or certain degrees of murder, manslaughter, what is equitable and just for those crimes, should they be considered to be life or death?

Consider these passages:

“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
“But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die. Exodus 21:12-14


“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then the ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. Exodus 21:28-29​

There are other passages like these and we can discuss them too if you want. The principle is this: If a someone injures or kills another man by accident and through no fault of his own, he is not guilty.

However, if a someone injures or kills another person through gross negligence, then he is guilty as though it were intentional.

If a kid darts out between parked cars after a ball and is killing by a passing car, the driver is not guilty. But if the driver is drunk and blows through a stop sign, killing a pedestrian crossing the street, then the driver is as guilty and should be executed.

If a dog attacks and kills someone but had never shown signs of aggression before, the dog should be put down but the owner is not guilty. But if the dog had a history of aggression but the owner did not have the dog killed, then the owner is responsible for the dog's actions and should also be put to death.

Make sense?

Our governing authorities determine the outcome for these crimes; do they always determine it is just; are they Christians?

Generally, no. And even the ones that are Christians tend to be more beholden to following the process that to God's enduring commandments.

Perhaps Christians should take a stronger stance, or maybe the Christian Church needs to be more active in Social Justice!

:thumb: Yes, and Christians should find out what God thinks about these matters. Too many don't bother.

Why can’t the government cut some of the in betweens and make it more swiftly?

Our government is primarily made up of committees of lawyers who love to complicate everything and multiply laws. I suppose that ensures their job security.

But you make a good point. There is no reason that it should take 20 years to carry out a death sentence. Those who argue against the death penalty on the basis of it being more costly to execute a criminal than to imprison him for life never want to consider that (because they aren't really motivated by a desire to minimize costs).

Yes they should punish criminals, isn’t this part of God handing down authority to the government to [prosecute] those that break laws, and committing crimes.

Yes.

When God removed Cain from the land that was an example of His showing us as that those with evil hearts and those that commit murder should be removed from society?

In a sense, but it also shows that allowing murderers to live emboldens people to commit murder. After ~1600 years of letting people be guided only by their consciences and not punishing criminals, mankind became so wicked that God decided to bring about the Flood and start anew with Noah and his family. And when they got off the ark, God commanded them (mankind) to put murderers to death from that point forward.

What about Pilate, when Jesus was sentenced to be crucified he was under Roman law, Pilate believed who Jesus was, what exactly was Jesus crime for being crucified, was it the power of the people that overcame Pilate in his decision?

Yes. Pilate recognized that Jesus was innocent, but he deferred to the democratic decision of the mob that demanded His death.

Does that make Pilate a murderer, or was he a ruler of his land obeying the laws?

When a governing official knowingly sentences an innocent person to death, that is murder.

Does it make him just with God?

No, Jesus even told Pilate he was sinning:

"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

Jesus answered, [jesus]"You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."[/jesus] John 20:10-11​

 

[Turbo]

I agree in doing things God's way. Referring to "Just" You mention the criminal on the cross that asked Jesus to remember him when He is in His Kingdom. The criminal was he just in his knowing for what he did and accepts the punishment,

No, accepting his punishment isn't why he was saved, but his humble and repentant heart allowed him to recognize that he and the other criminal were receiving their just punishment, while Christ was innocent.

 

[Sharri]

Because our criminal justice system is broken.

Good point!

Horrible, isn't it?

Yeah it is. I don’t’ know much more on this case except they are waiting on the judge. (not to much info is given on this case??)

Yes! Without the threat of appropriate punishments carried out quickly, many more people are emboldened to commit crimes.


It's like, people know that smoking cigarettes will likely kill you some day, but that isn't a very powerful deterrent; many people smoke despite the risk. If smoking a cigarette would almost surely kill you within a few hours or days, almost no one would ever smoke a cigarette.

That’s true, just like those that say the death penalty isn't a powerful deterrent, it's about forgiveness (more on forgiveness later).
My question is, is putting someone to death our responsibility (as Christians) for their salvation? God gave us our own free will to chose to follow Him or go on our own path.
So why is it so different when a serial killer or murder is on trial we need to forgive them, what about the alcoholic neighbor we see in the bar all the time or the married couple that is having marital problems, are we not responsible for their salavation like the criminals that commit capital crimes? Where is the powerful deterrent in not supporting the death penatly?


What gets me is in the case with Ross, he wrote in one of his letters how after he is executed how he hopes his actions on death row might help those with their grieving and heal the wounds he created. He also mentioned how if this does happen it will “justify” his actions and make the last years worth while.

Him trying to make restitution with the ones that grieve, what about being justly in his actions on what he did to the women he killed? Why not make restitution with God, where is He in all of this? I don’t get it. After Ross being treated for mental illness he now knows he is wrong on what he did and hopes to help heal those that grieve… ???? I just don’t get it.

Is being “just” with God the same has having “restitution” with God? What does God say about Restitution?

Exodus 22:6 (kjv)
6. If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

Exodus 22:12 (kjv)
12. And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.

Act 3:21 (kjv)
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Maybe it’s more like paying off a debt to those you’ve hurt or taken from.

 

[Sharri]

Yes. Pilate recognized that Jesus was innocent, but he deferred to the democratic decision of the mob that demanded His death.

When a governing official knowingly sentences an innocent person to death, that is murder.

No, Jesus even told Pilate he was sinning:

"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

Jesus answered, [jesus]"You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."[/jesus] John 20:10-11​

Pilates decision in crucifying Jesus was more on the role of the people of Rome or for Rome's sake, he questions the crowd on what to do with Jesus. He was taking a poll on whom the crowd was more in favor for Jesus or himself.

Was Pilate governing Rome like he was suppose to? Does this make Pilate a murderer for crucifying a wannabe king in Rome (even though Pilate knew whom he was)? He didn't have to crucify Jesus, was Pilate fufilling God's plan on His son's crucifiction? Is Pilate in eternal hell for crucifying Jesus, did God forgive Pilate for doing his duty in governing and administering to Rome and the people?

 

[drbrumley]

Pilates decision in crucifying Jesus was more on the role of the people of Rome or for Rome's sake, he questions the crowd on what to do with Jesus. He was taking a poll on whom the crowd was more in favor for Jesus or himself.

Huh?

Was Pilate governing Rome like he was suppose to?

No being Pilate did not govern Rome

Does this make Pilate a murderer for crucifying a wannabe king in Rome (even though Pilate knew whom he was)?

You mean wannabe King of Isreal? You betcha!

He didn't have to crucify Jesus, was Pilate fufilling God's plan on His son's crucifiction?

Could Pilate have said no?

Is Pilate in eternal hell for crucifying Jesus

Yes

did God forgive Pilate for doing his duty in governing and administering to Rome and the people?

Did he ask for forgiveness?

 

[Sharri]

Was Pilate fufilling God's plan in His son's crucificition? If so, does this makes him a muderer for fufilling God's plan? Is Pilate in eternal hell for ordering Jesus to be crucified?

What about the Jews, are they not guilty of wanting Jesus to be crucified? What about the Romans for crucifying Jesus? Are they considered murderers? Are they in eternal hell for fufillig God's plan?

 

[drbrumley]

Was Pilate fufilling God's plan in His son's crucificition?

Define God's Plan. Did God make Pilate do that deed? Of course not! I have asked you if Pilate had a choice? I didn't see an answer.

If so, does this makes him a murderer for fulfilling God's plan?

If God orchestrated the whole event, then we have no business convicting Pilate of murder.

Is Pilate in eternal hell for ordering Jesus to be crucified?

If God orchestrated the whole event, then we have no business convicting Pilate of murder.

What about the Jews, are they not guilty of wanting Jesus to be crucified?

Well, thank God he left us His word on what their punishment was. He set them aside.

What about the Romans for crucifying Jesus?

Did all Romans murder Jesus?

Are they considered murderers?

Did all Romans murder Jesus?

Are they in eternal hell for fulfilling God's plan?

What do you think? Seriously!