Battle Talk ~ BR XI
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Sharri
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I am not sure what Rd post Turbo posted this I think it was in the beginning, again not sure. Is it saying us as Christians in order to be just with God we should be just in our laws, no matter if the laws are waiting to see the murderer die?
How do we know we are doubting the existence of a just God? What would determine this, and if this being true, in order to be just with God would you say being obedience towards the law(s) is in order to be to be righteous with God?
Sharri
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Turbo,
When you were talking about Paul's writing the governing authorities as God's ministers, is this one of the reasons why you believe in the DP and why you support the DP?
You also mention how us as Christians should not set aside the commandment of God in favor of their own traditions or ideas, and we should be diligent to represent God accurately.
How (and or when) did you come to realize this is what you believe and why you believed it,meaning the DP?
When you were talking about Paul's writing the governing authorities as God's ministers, is this one of the reasons why you believe in the DP and why you support the DP?
You also mention how us as Christians should not set aside the commandment of God in favor of their own traditions or ideas, and we should be diligent to represent God accurately.
How (and or when) did you come to realize this is what you believe and why you believed it,meaning the DP?
Sharri
New member
Okay, I will share some of this with you (TOL).
When I first heard of what happened to Robin, I was basically in shock. I couldn’t believe it. It took me days to come to, to grasp onto knowing I won’t see her in school, or at the track, and practices. Funny thing, when she was teaching me how to release the discus and the stepping, she would always tell me “come on Sharri” your not going to fall this time. I was like Charlie Brown always missing the football.
The battle for me began when Ross was sentenced to death; he was on death row for 16 years. I remember every time I would read one of his letters or interviews I wanted to go through the television and kill him. Some Christian I am right? I’m just as bad as he was, in wanting to kill. It didn’t really dawn on me on my walk with God until I read a letter from a friend of one of the victims that she wrote to Ross. Part of the letter was her sharing her forgiveness for Ross for what he has done. She knew she had to let go of her anger by forgiving Ross so God could forgive her.
I believe this, I also felt this way, but that wasn't enough, I felt there is more to it then just forgiveness, I didn’t know what it was. I have struggled with this for so long, now as I seek God more and more I come to realize I need to grasp what I believe in, and know why I believe in it, which is the Death Penalty.
This is why I am asking those (Turbo) who believe in the death penalty to help me in seeking answers in why I believe what I believe.
When I first heard of what happened to Robin, I was basically in shock. I couldn’t believe it. It took me days to come to, to grasp onto knowing I won’t see her in school, or at the track, and practices. Funny thing, when she was teaching me how to release the discus and the stepping, she would always tell me “come on Sharri” your not going to fall this time. I was like Charlie Brown always missing the football.
The battle for me began when Ross was sentenced to death; he was on death row for 16 years. I remember every time I would read one of his letters or interviews I wanted to go through the television and kill him. Some Christian I am right? I’m just as bad as he was, in wanting to kill. It didn’t really dawn on me on my walk with God until I read a letter from a friend of one of the victims that she wrote to Ross. Part of the letter was her sharing her forgiveness for Ross for what he has done. She knew she had to let go of her anger by forgiving Ross so God could forgive her.
I believe this, I also felt this way, but that wasn't enough, I felt there is more to it then just forgiveness, I didn’t know what it was. I have struggled with this for so long, now as I seek God more and more I come to realize I need to grasp what I believe in, and know why I believe in it, which is the Death Penalty.
This is why I am asking those (Turbo) who believe in the death penalty to help me in seeking answers in why I believe what I believe.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but I might have a general idea I'll take a stab at fleshing out what you quoted and if that doesn't answer your question, maybe you could clarify them.Sharri said:
Here I'm primarily talking about unbelievers who haven't studied the Bible. Maybe you've heard people say things like, "How could God be just if..." And then they cite some gross injustice where some horrible criminal gets off easy.Turbo said:
Part of the problem is that Christians teach the Calvinist distortion of God to the world, that every wicked thing that happens is God's will and part of His meticulous plan. But another part of the problem is that our justice system is anything but just.
As God's ministers, governing authorities should take care to represent God accurately and to carry out their things as He instructed. Many people will form impressions about God based on what their government does.Turbo said:
Similarly, people have a tendency to form impressions about God based on their parents, especially their fathers. People with abusive fathers can have a hard time with the existence of Heavenly Father who is loving. And an unjust government can be a stumbling block for those who doubt the existence of a just God.
I have nothing to add to this for now.Turbo said:
I'm not sure what you mean by either phrase, but I'm not saying that salvation has anything to do with obeying or enforcing good laws. But there are may benefits to doing things God's way. He's much wiser than we are and we should submit to and trust in His wisdom.Sharri said:
(I'm not sure if that's what you are asking.)
Yes, that is one reason.Sharri said:
That's not to say that we should support anything and everything that the government does. Governments rebel against God all too often, and one way in which they do so is by refusing to execute capital criminals as God instructed.
But in that passage from Romans 13 Paul specifically referred to the government's executing of criminals as a good thing.
I recognized the wisdom in executing certain criminals (definitely murderers and possibly rapists) even before I became a Christian, and I also recognized that our government went about it foolishly, wasting a lot of time and money while convicted murderers are on death row. (The argument that it is more expensive to execute a murderer than to imprison him for life never held water with me; the solution was obvious to me.)
I came to realize that the God of the Bible supports the death penalty when I was about 20 years old, after finding Bob Enyart's God and the Death Penalty article online. (I didn't become a Christian until a couple years later.) The passage you mention is in that article and that's probably where I read it for the first time.
No. Salvation is by grace through faith alone according to Paul's gospel. Whoever believes that Jesus is Lord, and that He died for our sins and was raised from the dead is saved.Sharri said:
Yes, believers are not under the law and our righteousness is through Christ, not through our works.
But that is irrelevant to criminal justice. The government should punish criminals based on their actions, and not try to judge whether they are Christians. That is why Paul warned the believers in Rome that if they do evil, they should "be afraid" of the punishment they will receive from the government.
...But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Romans 13:4
Also notice that Paul was willing to accept punishment for any crime he might have committed; he did not appeal to the fact that he was not under the Law when he was on trial.
"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11
That is tragic! The government helped Ross re-victimize everyone who loved Robin by keeping him alive all that time, in part with their money no less.Sharri said:
Ross was a murderer. He shed innocent blood.
Ross's blood was not innocent, so your desire was not murderous.
While you didn't have the authority to kill him yourself, your desire that he killed was not wrong.
Even murder victims themselves, in heaven, want their killers to be executed:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:10-11
Did Ross repent and seek forgiveness?
She was mistaken. She probably got that idea from John 20:23:
[jesus]If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [/jesus]
This was prior to Paul's gospel to the gentiles, but even still, this was not an instruction to forgive everyone no matter what. For Jesus also said that forgiveness is to be conditional, that we should only forgive those who are repentant.[jesus]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3[/jesus]
Christians who eagerly declare that they forgive every vile criminal unconditionally send a message to the world that repentance is unnecessary. They self-righteously forgive even those who God does not forgive.
Do you still feel that way?
:up:
Again, sorry I took so long to respond. I'll do better from now on.
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Sharri
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Here I'm primarily talking about unbelievers who haven't studied the Bible. Maybe you've heard people say things like, "How could God be just if..." And then they cite some gross injustice where some horrible criminal gets off easy.
If we as Christians believe in our hearts that our government is unjust, and knowing the laws are unjust, how are we to maintain the righteousness we have with God? Do we need to believe the laws are just no matter if it is waiting to see the murderer on death row for years to be executed? Is this a sign of doubting the existence of a just God?
What would determine an unjust government? Would it be a government who oppsoses the DP, determining what criminals, murders get off on insanity or end up living in prison until death?
Those are good examples, yes, where God's commandments are ignored in favor of man's ideas.Sharri said:
In a just (and Biblical) system the criminal's punishment is usually similar to what he did (or attempted to do) to his victim.
I think this passage sums up God's criminal justice system well:
If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:16-21
This passage doesn't mention monetary crimes, but the penalty for those follows the same principle: If someone steals from their neighbor, he are requires to pay back his neighbor twice what he stole. (Under some circumstances, other multiples are used.)
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