theo_victis
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It was for humor sake
Battle Talk ~ BR XI
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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It was for humor sake
theo_victis
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Correction and discipline is different then punishment and you even know that.
As if imprisonment isn't punishment!theo_victis said:
Call it what you want, if these laws are totally obsolete even in the context of a criminal justice system (as you say), there should be no penalty whatsoever for violating them.
(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13
Just Tom
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theo_victis said:
You no longer condemn other by the law? What is wrong with your brain? It is the law that is the school master that leads you to Christ. And the WORLD will be judged by the law, those who reject Christ. They are not under grace we are and thus we need to tell them that they are violating the law both spiritually and physically.
You aren't a luvy-duby one you are a theology ultra spiritual BS'er with qoutes like this "The law was fulfilled and made obsolete in Christ, we as Christians no longer condemn by others by the law nor are we condemned by the law by God. It is that simple."
You have been taken for a ride... enjoy the trip...I don't think your brain/or your heart is wired quite right to grasp the simple spiritual truth of how the DP works in society and spiritually.
Chileice
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Theo and Turbo,
You ought to save your debate for the debate. Dragging each other through the mud in the grandstands doesn't make either one of you look very competent to carry out a serious debate. Maybe you should let this thread be about debate comments from those who are reading your posts rather than accusing and counter-accusing each other of who-knows -what. Just a kindly suggestion from an interested observer
You ought to save your debate for the debate. Dragging each other through the mud in the grandstands doesn't make either one of you look very competent to carry out a serious debate. Maybe you should let this thread be about debate comments from those who are reading your posts rather than accusing and counter-accusing each other of who-knows -what. Just a kindly suggestion from an interested observer
ApologeticJedi
New member
It does not deter crime
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo gave good arguments that crime is deterred.
It does not justify the crime (only Christ’s death can fully do this)
Contradictory since prison doesn't justify the crime either.
It does not allow the murderer to come to repentance (especially if we do this swiftly)
Debatable. You failed to prove this. It could easily spur a murderer to repentance.
Man will never judge without error (the DP cannot be overturned once carried out)
Irrelevant since God would have known that when he commanded the death penalty. Even more irrelevant when you are still suggesting we punish them by putting them in prison (which years can never be given back).
There may be a sociological bias
Your only good point that I saw, but it is still irrelevant to whether or not it is righteous.
We are all guilty and deserving of the Death Penalty (everyone one of us!)
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo pointed out that not everyone has committed an act that would deserve the Death Penalty.
God has fulfilled and made the OT obsolete in Christ
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo points out that the law is still around for unbelievers. Only believers are not under the law.
God has commanded us not to judge hypocritically
Debatable and contradictory since you still ask judged to sentence them to prison. Also, there is no evidence that the judge has committed murder himself.
God has commanded us not to condemn anyone
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo pointed out that the NT says that we should condemn.
God commands us to be forgiving
Contradictory since you still want them put in prison.
God commands us to be merciful
Irrelevant. You failed to prove that this correlates to the death penalty.
God commands us to act and speak as those being judged under mercy and freedom
Debatable. You failed to prove this.
God died on the cross for our sins so we do not have to
A misunderstanding of the gospel. Christ died so we can avoid our "second death". We will still die the first death.
God is to be Judge
Debatable and contradictory. Christians are told to judge by Jesus (and will be the ones judging on judgment day). God establishes judges which Jesus warns us of should we do wrong. And even you think judges should determine guilt.
God did not always exercise the DP
Irrelevant since God is the one person who has the authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:4-8). Even after forgiving David, Gomar, and the woman caught in adultery, God continued to tell men to put murderers to death.
God is love
So is the death penalty (Revelations 6:10-11)! (And God is not just love, but also just.)
Your problem, of having your contradictory points for your main arguments, is still present.
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo gave good arguments that crime is deterred.
It does not justify the crime (only Christ’s death can fully do this)
Contradictory since prison doesn't justify the crime either.
It does not allow the murderer to come to repentance (especially if we do this swiftly)
Debatable. You failed to prove this. It could easily spur a murderer to repentance.
Man will never judge without error (the DP cannot be overturned once carried out)
Irrelevant since God would have known that when he commanded the death penalty. Even more irrelevant when you are still suggesting we punish them by putting them in prison (which years can never be given back).
There may be a sociological bias
Your only good point that I saw, but it is still irrelevant to whether or not it is righteous.
We are all guilty and deserving of the Death Penalty (everyone one of us!)
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo pointed out that not everyone has committed an act that would deserve the Death Penalty.
God has fulfilled and made the OT obsolete in Christ
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo points out that the law is still around for unbelievers. Only believers are not under the law.
God has commanded us not to judge hypocritically
Debatable and contradictory since you still ask judged to sentence them to prison. Also, there is no evidence that the judge has committed murder himself.
God has commanded us not to condemn anyone
Debatable. You failed to prove this. Turbo pointed out that the NT says that we should condemn.
God commands us to be forgiving
Contradictory since you still want them put in prison.
God commands us to be merciful
Irrelevant. You failed to prove that this correlates to the death penalty.
God commands us to act and speak as those being judged under mercy and freedom
Debatable. You failed to prove this.
God died on the cross for our sins so we do not have to
A misunderstanding of the gospel. Christ died so we can avoid our "second death". We will still die the first death.
God is to be Judge
Debatable and contradictory. Christians are told to judge by Jesus (and will be the ones judging on judgment day). God establishes judges which Jesus warns us of should we do wrong. And even you think judges should determine guilt.
God did not always exercise the DP
Irrelevant since God is the one person who has the authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:4-8). Even after forgiving David, Gomar, and the woman caught in adultery, God continued to tell men to put murderers to death.
God is love
So is the death penalty (Revelations 6:10-11)! (And God is not just love, but also just.)
Your problem, of having your contradictory points for your main arguments, is still present.
novice
Who is the stooge now?
In the end I am left wondering what Theo really believes.
Should capital criminals be forgiven, even to the point of letting them babysit our children?
Or should they be punished by being put in prison?
It seemed to me Theo enjoyed living somewhere in-between the above two positions.
I have a hard time believing that even death penalty opponents could be too happy with Theo's reasoning above.
On the bright side....
I am happy that Theo finished the debate and that he was enthusiastic and gave an effort which is much more than some have done in these battles! Good job Theo! Theo I think you lost every round but I thank you for your effort and attitude.
Should capital criminals be forgiven, even to the point of letting them babysit our children?
Or should they be punished by being put in prison?
It seemed to me Theo enjoyed living somewhere in-between the above two positions.
I have a hard time believing that even death penalty opponents could be too happy with Theo's reasoning above.
On the bright side....
I am happy that Theo finished the debate and that he was enthusiastic and gave an effort which is much more than some have done in these battles! Good job Theo! Theo I think you lost every round but I thank you for your effort and attitude.
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Just Tom
New member
Theo-vitcus:
Your whole problem is your misunderstanding of why Jesus died on the cross. Which you continually point to as your greatest evidence for your position. He died not to put an end to death here on earth but so that those who accept him will not die the second death and be sent to hell.
So when you apply that misunderstanding to criminal justice and the DP you will naturally come up with your position.
Have a nice delusion!
Your whole problem is your misunderstanding of why Jesus died on the cross. Which you continually point to as your greatest evidence for your position. He died not to put an end to death here on earth but so that those who accept him will not die the second death and be sent to hell.
So when you apply that misunderstanding to criminal justice and the DP you will naturally come up with your position.
Have a nice delusion!
theo_victis
New member
I cannot beleive you! You are so biased! I pointed out Christ's very words that condemn all of us. We all lust we all have unjust anger. It is that simple. You deserve the DP.
Yeah, you guys are real winners. Hooray for death! Go ahead and go watch people be killed and cheer on their deaths. Go make your little avatars that promote execution. Go scream at homosexuals telling them to die. Yeah, take Christ's example. That is what Jesus did? Right? That is what Joseph did right! That is what the early church did right? You are really living out James 2 arent you. I have no toleration for people who make a mockery of God's words. Read James 2 and maybe actually think a little.
Just Tom
New member
Theo;
It is funny and a bit strange to me that when I wasn't saved and didn't know Jesus I held to almost all of your view. I can look back now and I think it was because I new in the deepest levels of my soul that I was guilty and not right with God so I rejected justice because that would condemn me.
Now that I have been saved I no longer hold those views.
So one of us is wrong!
I can tell you that your arguments from your Biblical position were your weakest arguments IMO..
I guess your pride will continue to hold you to your unrealistic, hyperspritual, lofty, utopian view of why Jesus died and what that mean for the world and us who claim to be followers of Christ.
Have a nice delusion! :cloud9:
It is funny and a bit strange to me that when I wasn't saved and didn't know Jesus I held to almost all of your view. I can look back now and I think it was because I new in the deepest levels of my soul that I was guilty and not right with God so I rejected justice because that would condemn me.
Now that I have been saved I no longer hold those views.
So one of us is wrong!
I can tell you that your arguments from your Biblical position were your weakest arguments IMO..
I guess your pride will continue to hold you to your unrealistic, hyperspritual, lofty, utopian view of why Jesus died and what that mean for the world and us who claim to be followers of Christ.
Have a nice delusion! :cloud9:
Dread Helm said:
Hi! Sorry, but I cannot remember what question you asked me...was it the one about what punishments God authorized governments to carry out?? (I don't know if that was it or not.)
I would love to answer, but I am just not sure. I believe that God gave governments the authority to enforce the death penalty, and although there is no scripture saying "God revoked the death penalty," I do believe that it is no longer necessary because of Christ's fulfillment of the law. I agree with Theo on that one (ha).
So, in answer to your question, I do not know what punishments governments are authorized by God to use. I guess I am still left pondering that question--it was a good one, DreadHelm. But...could you help me figure it out?
novice said:Yikes! That seems like a pretty serious thing to leave out of the bible wouldn't you agree?
If God revoked the death penalty why wouldn't He have told us?
Yes, but it seems really contradictory for God (Jesus) to offer mercy and then...not be merciful. Anyway, I am probably not going to change my mind about this (I already have, because I used to advocate the DP!) and you probably aren't either...and it seems like we've been through these questions a hundred times...so...agree to disagree?
I will ask him when I meet him.
theo_victis
New member
Justice does condemn us! This is what I am saying! We all deserve the DP. I am glad you realize this.
Pride? I was once an arrogant selfish uncaring jerk but I tell you the truth, after I had realized that Christians should not support the DP I realized that Christians are to love our neighbor.
I have already told you that I do not regard myself as ultra-spiritual. C'mon. When a Christian supports the DP they go against God's command to forgive, to be merciful to live as one under the law of freedom (James 2).
What is not Christian about any of that? Christ showed mercy, Joseph showed mercy, the early church showed mercy to Paul. Why are you any different? God desires mercy. This is strait up NT.
I am tired of hearing that we are not allowed to forgive. Bullcrap. We are commanded to forgive (Col 3:13). Was God lying?
I am tired of hearing that Paul, David, Moses, Cain, Lamech were all special cases where God forgave them. I can assure you that Karla Faye Tucker was forgiven by God yet man killed her. If God has forgiven why shouldnt we?
You missed the theology of the cross, you missed the theology of forgiveness and mercy I displayed in my posts. Go read them again if you have to. God forgives. Christians are commanded not to condemn. Vengeance is the Lords.
C'mon. Reason here.
theo_victis
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Just Tom.. look at your avatar. What are you doing? This is not Christian.
Just Tom
New member
theo_victis said:
As I said you don't understand what happened at the cross...Jesus fulfilled the payment that was necessary for whosoever would believe. So that they will not die the second death.
The law is GOOD if used LAWFULLY for murderers.
Have you ever even been in a prison? I have!
I have worked in both the State maximum security and the Federal maximum security here in my state.
Your pie in the sky view of corrective incarceration and not punishing those who repent after conviction shows your total lack of knowledge of human behavior. These people will do and say anything to manipulate you to get an angle and if they see that pretending to be a Christian (like George Bush did) will get them less of a sentence then you will have a revival like no other.
Joseph forgave because those that sinned against him repented...
The JEWS wanted to kill Paul because he was a CHRISTIAN now..
Paul was shown mercy by God as he said because what he did he did out of IGNORANCE.
David was FORGIVEN because he REPENTED but he was still punished because he had given cause for the enemies of God to mock Israel.
You really have a TOTAL lack of understanding but you have memorized allot.
My avatar is totally Christian.
God is homophobic and He saved Lot from destruction because he was a righteous man vexed in his soul by the lawlessness that he saw around him everyday.
Oh that is right there is no more law...Well then lets all be homos :bang: Since Christ put an end to the law that said being a homo was a sin and a crime.
Have a nice delusion!!
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