Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[theo_victis]

Joseph forgave because those that sinned against him repented...
The JEWS wanted to kill Paul because he was a CHRISTIAN now..
Paul was shown mercy by God as he said because what he did he did out of IGNORANCE.

David was FORGIVEN because he REPENTED but he was still punished because he had given cause for the enemies of God to mock Israel.

So what if todays criminals repent? Or did that only happen in the Bible? It is funny that this is exactly what I am talking about, Karla Faye Tucker repented. Yet America killed her. She did what she did out of ignorance and a poor up bringing which caused her to think that prostitution was okay.

These exceptions, David, Moses, Cain, Lamech, the woman caught in adultery, Paul, Joseph's brothers, all of these people deserved death. Niether God, nor Israel, nor Rome, nor Egypt, nor any governing authority put them to death. Why? Didnt they deserve death even if they were sorry. Turbo argued that a true repentant Christian should still give themselves up for death. Why didnt David get it in the end? You stated he was given an alternative punishment. Sounds a lot like what I was advocating.

You really have a TOTAL lack of understanding but you have memorized allot.

LOL.

My avatar is totally Christian.
God is homophobic and He saved Lot from destruction because he was a righteous man vexed in his soul by the lawlessness that he saw around him everyday.

Remember when Jesus persecuted the sinners, prostitutes, adutlerers, tax collectors etc..? Oh wait he didnt bash them. He didnt tell any lepers they got what they deserved or any demon possessed men to fluff off. He had compassion and mercy, forgiveness and grace. Things your avatar does not allow for. God is homophobic? Do you even know what that term means?

It means to have unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals. Is God scared of gays?

LOL

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=homophobic

Have a nice delusion!!

say hi to your non-existing homophobic god

 

[Just Tom]

So what if todays criminals repent? Or did that only happen in the Bible? It is funny that this is exactly what I am talking about, Karla Faye Tucker repented. Yet America killed her. She did what she did out of ignorance and a poor up bringing which caused her to think that prostitution was okay.

These exceptions, David, Moses, Cain, Lamech, the woman caught in adultery, Paul, Joseph's brothers, all of these people deserved death. Niether God, nor Israel, nor Rome, nor Egypt, nor any governing authority put them to death. Why? Didnt they deserve death even if they were sorry. Turbo argued that a true repentant Christian should still give themselves up for death. Why didnt David get it in the end? You stated he was given an alternative punishment. Sounds a lot like what I was advocating.


LOL.



Remember when Jesus persecuted the sinners, prostitutes, adutlerers, tax collectors etc..? Oh wait he didnt bash them. He didnt tell any lepers they got what they deserved or any demon possessed men to fluff off. He had compassion and mercy, forgiveness and grace. Things your avatar does not allow for. God is homophobic? Do you even know what that term means?

It means to have unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals. Is God scared of gays?

LOL

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=homophobic


say hi to your non-existing homophobic god

So in the new testament when God inspired Paul to say that homosexuals deserve death, was it Paul or God who was wrong. Was Paul wrong when he said that the law was given for "abusers of themselves with mankind" and that that law was good.

Actually that isn't what being homophobic is but that is what the homos what you to believe that it is. Satan and those who do his biding use subtle deceptions to fool people. Did you know that all homos where homophobic before they accepted their "gayness" and quit fighting it and gave into their perversion. Wow that sounds just like what God said about them in romans.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

You see to know God is to be homophobic not in the sense that the homos want you to think but in the sense that you should oppose homosexuals at every turn and make it as difficult as possible for them to live in their sin and to corrupt those who as the bible say are "unstable" who they prey on.

You also know nothing about homosexuality or what causes it or what is best for society and the homo themselves. So don't even go there. Jesus called sinners to REPENT. But I am sure that you would never tell a homo to repent cause that would be unloving. We have HIV running rampant in this country because of HOMOS and if you don't have any contact with a homo or with someone who has then you won't get AIDS. Since you get AIDS from HOMOS. Which is why it was called GRID (Gay Related Immuneo Deficiency) Homos sued the CDC to get it changed to AIDS (Acquired Immuneo Deficiency Syndrome) Well if you acquire it then who do you acquire it from? HOMOS it is a Gay disease and to point that out those of your ilk would say that I am being homophobic and I am not afraid of that label and I embrace it. Thus you can't shame me into silence.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that GOD can forgive someone their sins but man can and should not forgive them to the point that if they commit a crime worthy of death that they should not be put to death because they have been forgiven by you.

And your immature assertion in the debate if you hate someone with out cause or if you lust after a woman you should be put to death is laughable. Jesus was talking about the condition of the persons heart. Though they never actually physically committed adultery if every time they see their neighbors wife they think about sex with her then they are guilty. But not to the point of death in this world at the hands of the government but in the next life at the hands of God. THIS IS WHAT JESUS CAME TO SAVE US FROM...THE SECOND DEATH WHICH IS WHY PAUL WROTE THAT "DEATH HAD LOST ITS STING"

I read your bio and it saddens me that you will be seen as a Christian. You have the same beliefs of those who openly hate God. Thus you will embolden them that they are correct in their hatred of justice and lead others astray.

 

[theLawRocks]

The Law stands firm

The Law stands firm

From a sermon on Matthew 5:

“I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished.” (Matt. 5:18)
…….

The phrase “Until heaven and earth disappear" was an idiom which meant “the impossible.” So, Jesus wasn’t talking about a particular moment in time here: the moment heaven and earth disappear; he was saying that it was impossible for anyone to change the law until “everything is accomplished.”

‘Accomplished’, or genetai in the Greek means ‘happens,’ or “comes about” or more specifically ‘a moment when something you’re looking forward to, arrives.’ In other words, the law cannot be changed until the moment the law and the prophets look forward to, happens.” And the one thing that everyone felt the law and the prophets looked forward to was the Messiah, the one who would bring God’s kingdom into being on the earth. And the irony is that there was Jesus, the Messiah, ushering in God’s kingdom, accomplishing everything the law and the prophets were looking forward to in that very moment. And while in that moment he wasn’t changing the letter of the law or the importance of the law through his teaching, he’d do that through his coming death and resurrection, what he was doing was clearing up some terrible misinterpretations of what God actually considered obeying the law.

On Fire:

I agree with the notion that the idiom may mean "impossible", and that the law will not change until ALL is fulfilled. But to argue that all is fulfilled at the cross is, I believe, incorrect, there is so much more to be fulfilled, the second coming of Christ, the millennium, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the new haven and new earth (Rev 21), the judgment and eternal damnation of Satan, the wiping away tears from our eyes…

I think Jesus meant what he said. If he meant what you said he would have said it more directly.

Jesus included in his Great Commission, the teaching of ALL his commands. The last chapter of the Bible refers to “His commands”.

 

[JoyfulRook]

Hi! Sorry, but I cannot remember what question you asked me...was it the one about what punishments God authorized governments to carry out?? (I don't know if that was it or not.)

I would love to answer, but I am just not sure. I believe that God gave governments the authority to enforce the death penalty, and although there is no scripture saying "God revoked the death penalty," I do believe that it is no longer necessary because of Christ's fulfillment of the law. I agree with Theo on that one (ha).

So, in answer to your question, I do not know what punishments governments are authorized by God to use. I guess I am still left pondering that question--it was a good one, DreadHelm. But...could you help me figure it out?

The three punishments God authorized are:

1. Restitution
2. Corporal Punishment: Flogging
3. Capital Punishment: Execution

These three are used for different levels of crimes. For example Restitution is one of the punishments God authorized Governments to meet out on criminals for certain crimes (such as stealing). It is the practice of returning what was stolen x2 or another multiple. Another is flogging (for things such as drunkeness) and the last is execution (murder, rape, etc.). Prisons have never been advocated by the Bible.

My next question to you is: How should righteous Governments punish murderers?

 

[Delmar]

But now God has negated his commands (Hebrews 8 and James 2) because of his son. I have to ask you this, Why did King David, an instrument of God’s wrath, not have himself be executed?

Or imprisoned !

 

[Servo]

My next question to you is: How should righteous Governments punish murderers?

Easy. Forgive them and put them in prison...

Oh, I mean the "rehabilitation center".

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I cannot beleive you! You are so biased! I pointed out Christ's very words that condemn all of us. We all lust we all have unjust anger. It is that simple. You deserve the DP.

I am not biased. I looked at what you said, and Turbo completely debunked your position.

What verse did Jesus say that people that have unjust anger derserve the Death Penatly?
Answer: None.

What verse did Jesus say that people that lust deserve the Death Penalty?
Answer: None.

Jesus warned them of hell fire - not the government or the death penalty. Ergo you failed to prove that Jesus was saying that people who have anger deserve the Death Penalty. You did prove that they sinned, but not all sin requires the death penalty. "Thou shalt not covet" was in the ten commandments, and yet there was never a punishment that was to go along with it.

Jesus points out that it is just as bad to have sin in your hearts. The old testament says the exact same thing. But neither in the OT nor the NT are internall matters of thought to be given the death penalty.




Theo,

What about the multiple time you contradicted yourself by sayingwe should have mercy, yet put them in prison? I pointed out eigth contradictions in your position. Obviously you never provided a clear coherant argument in the five rounds given to you.

This isn't pure bias. You seem unfamiliar with how to build an arguemnt in a debate.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

So what if todays criminals repent? Or did that only happen in the Bible? It is funny that this is exactly what I am talking about, Karla Faye Tucker repented. Yet America killed her. She did what she did out of ignorance and a poor up bringing which caused her to think that prostitution was okay.

You believe Karla Faye Tucker repented ... I am not so certain. That is why she should have been put to death. Only two people can halt her execution - reprieve from the murdered victim from heaven, or reprieve from God from heaven. This never happened.

To not put Karla Faye Tucker to death is to "profane God" (Ezerkial 19:13)

These exceptions, David, Moses, Cain, Lamech, the woman caught in adultery, Paul, Joseph's brothers, all of these people deserved death. Niether God, nor Israel, nor Rome, nor Egypt, nor any governing authority put them to death. Why? Didnt they deserve death even if they were sorry.

Let's look at these cases a bit more closely and we'll see how Karla Faye Tucker doesn't fit in.

David deserved death. However the very voice of God came from heaven to repreive David of death. Never-the-less, afterwards God still insisted that adulterers be put to death (Ps 1:2; 19:7; 78:1-8; 89:30-32).

Moses deserved death (assuming it wasn't self-defense- killing the Egpytian before the Egyptian killed the Hebrew), but again a voice from heaven by God preserved his life. Still the laws to put people to death were repeated with Moses.

Gomar was an adulteress yet God specifically forgave her (Hos 3:1). Still He demanded that other adulterers be put to death (Hos 4:6).

The woman caught in adultry was forgiven by God, but still Jesus taught that the law was in full force (Matt 5:17-19; Matt 23:2-3; John 7:19-23)

And even afterwards the Apostles maintained the law as useful (Acts 21:20; 1 Tim 1:8-10; Rom 3:19, 31; Gal 3:24-25).

Remember when Jesus persecuted the sinners, prostitutes, adutlerers, tax collectors etc..? Oh wait he didnt bash them.

Do you think there were no adulterers, tax collectors, or prostitutes in the three cities Jesus cursed?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Your whole problem is your misunderstanding of why Jesus died on the cross. Which you continually point to as your greatest evidence for your position. He died not to put an end to death here on earth but so that those who accept him will not die the second death and be sent to hell.

Brillant point Tom. I hadn't looked at it that way, but I suppose to follow Theo's line of thinking doesn't just confuse one about the nature of the Death Penalty, but to even confuse people on the nature of the gospel!!

Excellent point.

 

[Poly]

So what if todays criminals repent? Or did that only happen in the Bible? It is funny that this is exactly what I am talking about, Karla Faye Tucker repented. Yet America killed her. She did what she did out of ignorance and a poor up bringing which caused her to think that prostitution was okay.

You believe Karla Faye Tucker repented ... I am not so certain. That is why she should have been put to death. Only two people can halt her execution - reprieve from the murdered victim from heaven, or reprieve from God from heaven. This never happened.

To not put Karla Faye Tucker to death is to "profane God" (Ezerkial 19:13)

These exceptions, David, Moses, Cain, Lamech, the woman caught in adultery, Paul, Joseph's brothers, all of these people deserved death. Niether God, nor Israel, nor Rome, nor Egypt, nor any governing authority put them to death. Why? Didnt they deserve death even if they were sorry.

Let's look at these cases a bit more closely and we'll see how Karla Faye Tucker doesn't fit in.

David deserved death. However the very voice of God came from heaven to repreive David of death. Never-the-less, afterwards God still insisted that adulterers be put to death (Ps 1:2; 19:7; 78:1-8; 89:30-32).

Moses deserved death (assuming it wasn't self-defense- killing the Egpytian before the Egyptian killed the Hebrew), but again a voice from heaven by God preserved his life. Still the laws to put people to death were repeated with Moses.

Gomar was an adulteress yet God specifically forgave her (Hos 3:1). Still He demanded that other adulterers be put to death (Hos 4:6).

The woman caught in adultry was forgiven by God, but still Jesus taught that the law was in full force (Matt 5:17-19; Matt 23:2-3; John 7:19-23)

And even afterwards the Apostles maintained the law as useful (Acts 21:20; 1 Tim 1:8-10; Rom 3:19, 31; Gal 3:24-25).

Remember when Jesus persecuted the sinners, prostitutes, adutlerers, tax collectors etc..? Oh wait he didnt bash them.

Do you think there were no adulterers, tax collectors, or prostitutes in the three cities Jesus cursed?

:first:
POTD

 

[theo_victis]

You believe Karla Faye Tucker repented ... I am not so certain.

I am so glad that you are the judge of this. Yikes, if you are in charge of who is a Christian and who is not then I am guessing I am going to hell even though I have repented of my sins through Jesus Christ who died on my behalf. Maybe I need your permission first.

Your arrogance is annoying.

That is why she should have been put to death.

Wait! She should be put to death because you were not SO CERTAIN!?!?! What the crap! Who are you, God?

Only two people can halt her execution

But according to Turbo, the government should always, no matter what, even if someone is a Christian, should put the person to death because it is the loving thing to do. How ridiculous.

Only two people can halt her execution - reprieve from the murdered victim from heaven,

Where does the Bible say that the murder victim has a say? Does the murder victim have a say whether or not their murderer goes to heaven?

You are beyond illogical.

or reprieve from God from heaven.

Which is exactly what Karla Faye Tucker recieved in Christ. Why didnt Paul get executed? Because he was forgiven by God. Why shouldnt Karla Faye Tucker have been executed? Because she was forgiven by God.

Let's look at these cases a bit more closely and we'll see how Karla Faye Tucker doesn't fit in.

David deserved death. However the very voice of God came from heaven to repreive David of death. Never-the-less, afterwards God still insisted that adulterers be put to death (Ps 1:2; 19:7; 78:1-8; 89:30-32).

Moses deserved death (assuming it wasn't self-defense- killing the Egpytian before the Egyptian killed the Hebrew), but again a voice from heaven by God preserved his life. Still the laws to put people to death were repeated with Moses.

Gomar was an adulteress yet God specifically forgave her (Hos 3:1). Still He demanded that other adulterers be put to death (Hos 4:6).

The woman caught in adultry was forgiven by God, but still Jesus taught that the law was in full force (Matt 5:17-19; Matt 23:2-3; John 7:19-23)

And even afterwards the Apostles maintained the law as useful (Acts 21:20; 1 Tim 1:8-10; Rom 3:19, 31; Gal 3:24-25).

What about Paul? What about Joseph's brothers? Besides, does God always use a loud voice from heaven?

What has God commanded us? To forgive as the Lord forgives. It seems that you have given some fine examples of God forgiving for us to follow.

Do you think there were no adulterers, tax collectors, or prostitutes in the three cities Jesus cursed?

Christ did not come to condemn the world. Why should we?



ApologeticJedi, have you ever been angry unjustly towards your brother or lusted in your heart and committed adultery? Then you too are condemned by the law. You are no different than a murderer or an adulterer. Therefore, as a christian, we are commanded not to judge hypocritically, we are not to condemn.

James 2. Read it, live it. Love people, the good, the bad, the ugly. I cannot stand all of the hatred on this site. I hate gays, I hate adulterers, I hate murderers, I hate non christians, I hate other christians that do not agree with me. What is this?!?!?! Come on now!

 

[theo_victis]

I am not biased. I looked at what you said, and Turbo completely debunked your position.

What verse did Jesus say that people that have unjust anger derserve the Death Penatly?
Answer: None.

What verse did Jesus say that people that lust deserve the Death Penalty?
Answer: None.

Jesus warned them of hell fire - not the government or the death penalty. Ergo you failed to prove that Jesus was saying that people who have anger deserve the Death Penalty. You did prove that they sinned, but not all sin requires the death penalty. "Thou shalt not covet" was in the ten commandments, and yet there was never a punishment that was to go along with it.

Jesus points out that it is just as bad to have sin in your hearts. The old testament says the exact same thing. But neither in the OT nor the NT are internall matters of thought to be given the death penalty.

So apparently the DP is on a higher plane then Hell. Seriously, you are not logical. In the context of Jewish laws, the DP is what Jews would have thought of. Christ never qualified the statement saying, "hey guys, this is something only spiritual." C'mon now, use some solid exegesis. Christ strengthens the OT Law in his statements. Instead of actually committing murder, unjust anger condemns you. Instead of just the DP, you are in danger of hell. See the metamorphis that leads to a stronger, harsher understanding of the law?

When you are guilty in your heart, how can you condemn someone when Christ has commanded us not to judge hypocritically?

What about the multiple time you contradicted yourself by sayingwe should have mercy, yet put them in prison? I pointed out eigth contradictions in your position. Obviously you never provided a clear coherant argument in the five rounds given to you.

OMG! How many times have I stated that this is not really imprisonment. It is a disiplinary action in order to equip and build up someone to be a functioning member of society. If someone commits adultery, we do not have to put them to death.

There is no contradiction with discipline and forgiveness. You just dont listen.

 

[theo_victis]

I read your bio and it saddens me that you will be seen as a Christian. You have the same beliefs of those who openly hate God.

That God forgives our sins?!??!?!?!?!

 

[death2impiety]

During Paul’s earthly ministry, Rome owned the world (one of many wicked nations in the Bible that used the Death Penalty as condemnation). The threat of the Death Penalty was a reality of the day. It would be like me saying, Don’t commit adultery unless you want to end up executed. Now, I don’t believe the DP is a suitable punishment for adultery, but the reality is, that’s the punishment adulterers should receive. My acknowledgement of that fact is not an endorsement of the DP as condemnation.

:hammer:
Theo I wish you weren't a stubborn kid. I think you confuse yourself.


That is all.

 

[Just Tom]

That God forgives our sins?!??!?!?!?!

No, that you must repent to gain forgiveness, and if you commit a crime here on earth worthy of death here on earth, that if you repent or say you do, then we Christians should lobby the government to pay for your REEDUCATION. You sound like a communist with your prison for:

OMG! How many times have I stated that this is not really imprisonment. It is a disiplinary action in order to equip and build up someone to be a functioning member of society. If someone commits adultery, we do not have to put them to death.

It sounds like theo's reeducation camps to conform your mind back to the correct way of thinking.
More examples of NAIVETÉ from someone who has never been in a prison and had to deal with those who have actually murdered other or raped others.

Will you be the camp commandant! :bang:

 

[Stripe]

theo .. there is a vast in unsurmountable difference between earthly governments and god. governments are ordained by god to enforce laws .. they are instructed to enforce laws on what people do. they cannot judge what people think.

god is not so constricted .. he can enforce laws on every aspect of a persons life ...

do you agree with this?

 

[theo_victis]

theo .. there is a vast in unsurmountable difference between earthly governments and god. governments are ordained by god to enforce laws .. they are instructed to enforce laws on what people do. they cannot judge what people think.

god is not so constricted .. he can enforce laws on every aspect of a persons life ...

do you agree with this?

Here is the problem: This debate was not about whether governments have the right to put people to death. I believe they can. The question is should they? This debate is whether Christians should support that decision, and the NT makes it clear that Christians should never seek the death of their enemies, forgiveness and mercy should be allotted by the Christian. Should Christians support the DP? NO! Of course not, we should oppose it and take the example of Joseph, the early church, Christ, and God the Father seriously especially in conjunction with James 2.

We are not to condemn others because that would make us hypocrites. Forgive freely as you have been forgiven freely. It makes no sense for a Christian to want someone to be put to death. I dont recall Christ nor Paul nor any NT writer advocating the death of anyone.

LIVE JAMES 2!

 

[Stripe]

Here is the problem: This debate was not about whether governments have the right to put people to death. I believe they can.

and this is why i said turbo wins the debate if he lives in a state that supports the death penalty. how many verses do you want where it says christians should follow the rules laid out by government?

 

[Primghar]

and this is why i said turbo wins the debate if he lives in a state that supports the death penalty. how many verses do you want where it says christians should follow the rules laid out by government?

So, what about in China where printing and distributing the Bible is illegal?? Since the government made this rule, we are all supposed to follow it?? Or what about countries where it is illegal to practice Christianity? That does not make any sense!!! Governments make terrible "rules" all the time! I do not think God is telling us to do whatever the government tells us to--that is ridiculous!

 

[Primghar]

You also know nothing about homosexuality or what causes it or what is best for society and the homo themselves.

I read your bio and it saddens me that you will be seen as a Christian. You have the same beliefs of those who openly hate God. Thus you will embolden them that they are correct in their hatred of justice and lead others astray.

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

So, why is it that you DO know everything about homosexuality and what causes it and what is best for society and for homosexuals? Did you create homosexuality, so that you get to decide? Or....wait, are you God? Is that why YOU understand everything so perfectly??
Wow, I am not sure how to react. I never thought God would have a theologyonline account. I guess that makes sense though! That's another point for you, God. I am still at zero.

You really must be God if you can tell who is a Christian or not...like Theo, for example. I can see why you would be skeptical about it: I mean, he DOES believe in Christ as his Savior who died on the cross for his sin. That's pretty ridiculous, huh? From what I understand from your post, if someone does not agree with you, they are suddenly not a Christian and you are sad? That means your opinion is perfect and the only person who was perfect is Jesus! Ohhhh, I get it, so you are Jesus!!! WHOA. Hi, Jesus!!!!!!