Battle Talk ~ BR XI

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On Fire

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From a sermon on Matthew 5:

“I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished.” (Matt. 5:18)

Here Jesus was referencing a Jewish folk tale. The story went like this: even though everyone knew that it was wrong to alter any of the law, when God changed Sari’s name to Sarah, he took a yod, the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet, a mere stroke of the pen, out of the text. This letter then went to heaven and complained so loudly that God eventually reinstated her by changing Joshua’s name and adding her back in. Jesus was saying he wasn’t about to change the law even in this tiny way, but he added until “everything is accomplished.”

The phrase “Until heaven and earth disappear" was an idiom which meant “the impossible.” So, Jesus wasn’t talking about a particular moment in time here: the moment heaven and earth disappear; he was saying that it was impossible for anyone to change the law until “everything is accomplished.”

‘Accomplished’, or genetai in the Greek means ‘happens,’ or “comes about” or more specifically ‘a moment when something you’re looking forward to, arrives.’ In other words, the law cannot be changed until the moment the law and the prophets look forward to, happens.” And the one thing that everyone felt the law and the prophets looked forward to was the Messiah, the one who would bring God’s kingdom into being on the earth. And the irony is that there was Jesus, the Messiah, ushering in God’s kingdom, accomplishing everything the law and the prophets were looking forward to in that very moment. And while in that moment he wasn’t changing the letter of the law or the importance of the law through his teaching, he’d do that through his coming death and resurrection, what he was doing was clearing up some terrible misinterpretations of what God actually considered obeying the law.

And he began by setting up a dichotomy between someone who breaks and actually teaches others to break the commandments and those that keep the commandments and teach others to do the same. He said, “Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices (does) and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:19. (Just so you’ll know the least of the commandments was thought to be Deut. 22: 6-7). Of course, Jesus’ broader point was that what should be practiced and taught was an understanding of the law that had evaded the religious establishment; it was his understanding of the commandments… and, in fact, he was just about to give his listeners a whole lot to think about when it comes to practicing and teaching the commands. But for the moment he wanted his listeners to think about whether the people that generally taught them about the law actually practiced what they preached and if what they preached actually led to a confident, hopeful relationship with God.
 

Primghar

BANNED
Banned
Nineveh said:
Chileice,
What about what God has to say?

What does that have to do with learning from one another? Is there a Scripture where God says not to learn from one another? Please share!
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Primghar said:
That was stupid, Turbo.
ok i re read the google incident .. it was stupid ... would have been easily negated had both recognised the term turbo was using and its intended meaning.
 

Chileice

New member
Primghar said:
Of course, but how is learning from other people NOT scriptural?

Nineveh,
In fact, learning from one another is Very scriptural. There are examples in bot OT and NT:
Exodus 35-
33He is skilled in cutting and setting gemstones and in carving wood. In fact, he has every necessary skill. 34And the LORD has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach their skills to others. 35The LORD has given them special skills as jewelers, designers, weavers, and embroiderers in blue, purple, and scarlet yarn on fine linen cloth. They excel in all the crafts needed for the work.

Dt. 6-
6And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Dt. 32.7-
Remember the days of old; consider the years long past. Ask your father, and he will tell you, your elders, and they will teach you.

I Chron. 27-
32Jonathan, David's uncle, was a wise counselor to the king, a man of great insight, and a scribe. Jehiel the Hacmonite was responsible to teach the king's sons. 33Ahithophel was the royal adviser. Hushai the Arkite was the king's friend.


Ezra 7-
10For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of the LORD, and to do it and to teach his statutes and rules in Israel.

Psalm 78-
1 O my people, listen to my teaching.
Open your ears to what I am saying,
2 for I will speak to you in a parable.
I will teach you hidden lessons from our past--
3 stories we have heard and know,
stories our ancestors handed down to us.


Proverbs 1-
8Listen, my child,[a] to what your father teaches you. Don't neglect your mother's teaching. 9What you learn from them will crown you with grace and clothe you with honor.

Proverbs 9.9-
Instruct a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will learn more.

Proverbs 22-
17 Pay attention and listen to the sayings of the wise;
apply your heart to what I teach,
18 for it is pleasing when you keep them in your heart
and have all of them ready on your lips.


And in Micah 3.10 (as in other passages in the prophets) God laments those who won't teach:
You rulers govern for the bribes you can get; you priests teach God's laws only for a price; you prophets won't prophesy unless you are paid. Yet all of you claim you are depending on the LORD. "No harm can come to us," you say, "for the LORD is here among us."

The NT is even fuller of our responsibility to teach one another. You can read about that in the next post:
 

JoyfulRook

New member
Dread Helm said:
Well, Theo and your's argument seems to be that we should forgive murderers and not give them the Death Penalty. But the government was still ordained by God to punish criminals (fogiven or not). You also were talking about prisons very early on in this thread, and I assume you support life sentences for murderers. So my question applies directly to what you believe. Can you answer my question now?

As an aside, in the Bible Judges are forbidden to show mercy to criminals.
Primghar?
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
On Fire said:
From a sermon on Matthew 5:

“I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished.” (Matt. 5:18)

Here Jesus was referencing a Jewish folk tale. The story went like this: even though everyone knew that it was wrong to alter any of the law, when God changed Sari’s name to Sarah, he took a yod, the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet, a mere stroke of the pen, out of the text. This letter then went to heaven and complained so loudly that God eventually reinstated her by changing Joshua’s name and adding her back in. Jesus was saying he wasn’t about to change the law even in this tiny way, but he added until “everything is accomplished.”

The phrase “Until heaven and earth disappear" was an idiom which meant “the impossible.” So, Jesus wasn’t talking about a particular moment in time here: the moment heaven and earth disappear; he was saying that it was impossible for anyone to change the law until “everything is accomplished.”

‘Accomplished’, or genetai in the Greek means ‘happens,’ or “comes about” or more specifically ‘a moment when something you’re looking forward to, arrives.’ In other words, the law cannot be changed until the moment the law and the prophets look forward to, happens.” And the one thing that everyone felt the law and the prophets looked forward to was the Messiah, the one who would bring God’s kingdom into being on the earth. And the irony is that there was Jesus, the Messiah, ushering in God’s kingdom, accomplishing everything the law and the prophets were looking forward to in that very moment. And while in that moment he wasn’t changing the letter of the law or the importance of the law through his teaching, he’d do that through his coming death and resurrection, what he was doing was clearing up some terrible misinterpretations of what God actually considered obeying the law.
Interesting thoughts. Where do you get the part about the heaven and earth passing away being an idiom? And that Jewish folk tale?
 

Chileice

New member
Nineveh said:
Wouldn't it be prudent to have a solid foundation in Truth?


Now in the NT we can begin with the Great Commission which I quote in KJV just because it is SO familiar that perhaps you forgot what it said. Mt. 28:

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


WE are to teach. That is how God's message gets out. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach both before and after his resurrection. People learn from people. Most of the people couldn't read. They didn't have a Bible like we have. They had to learn from face top face contact with real live human beings.

I know you are not ignorant of this, Nineveh. You are a bright person. It is probably semantics. Of course we must have our base in Jesus. We cannot move from him as the foundation, but we are also fallible and finite and we must rely on one another for our growth in Christ as we rely on the Spirit of God to direct and give us wisdom.

Listen to a few other thoughts from the NT on the subject:

Acts 1-
1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

Even the book of Acts was a letter written to teach from one believer, Luke (who had not been with Christ but who had learned from others) to Theophilus. Now the opponents of Gospel did not want people to teach, but listen to what Peter and John said,

18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.

This, by the way, is another rebuttal to Turbo's ideas that the government should be the ones to control all the rules and requisite punishments. Peter and John saw that the law was bad they chose not to obey it. But anyway on to the teaching/learning curve as Christians.

It is a shame not to put all of Acts 5 here. What a great story but here is the conclusion:
And every day, in the Temple and in their homes, they continued to teach and preach this message: "The Messiah you are looking for is Jesus."

But when we teach, we ought not to be too self-righteous or we may end up bearing the same reprimand Paul gave to the Jewish religious leaders (Romans 2) of his day, appearantly Christian ones even:

17If you are a Jew, you are relying on God's law for your special relationship with him. You boast that all is well between yourself and God. 18Yes, you know what he wants; you know right from wrong because you have been taught his law. 19You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a beacon light for people who are lost in darkness without God. 20You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that in God's law you have complete knowledge and truth.
21Well then, if you teach others, why don't you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? 22You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you do it? You condemn idolatry, but do you steal from pagan temples? 23You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it. 24No wonder the Scriptures say, "The world blasphemes the name of God because of you."


It is hard to be humble if you think you know it all. And it is also dangerous to think you DO know it all (not speaking to you Nineveh, but to anyone who might think he or she does, even Theo or Turbo).

Paul expected that even young Christians would be able to admonish one another. Look at Romans 15:
13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.


I will conclude with perhaps my all-time favourite, Col. 3.16:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

So there is definitely room in the Body of Christ for mutual admonision and learnig and growing. I believe even Paul went through that process. If you compare his very first letter, Galatians, with some of the latter letters, there is a mellowing, a recognition that not even he had obtained it all. He was a work in process as are we all.

Blessings,
Chileice
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Primghar said:
Of course, but how is learning from other people NOT scriptural?

I didn't say it wasn't. But if you noticed, Chileice didn't include God in his list of learning. That's why I asked Chileice the question. :)
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Chileice said:
WE are to teach. That is how God's message gets out.

Which is why I asked you where God fits into all this learning.

"Are YOU willing to learn from Theo? Has Turbo conceded any points to him? What should make you assume that you have nothing to learn from him and he has everything to learn from Turbo? Is it possible that we can all learn from one another, or is that not an option?"

When someone is in error according to the Word, it's prudent to instruct them or rebuke them, and then edify them, which is hard for someone to do if they are in error. It is not incumbent upon someone to concede a point if they are not in error merely to appear they are "learning".
 

theo_victis

New member
What does any of that have to do with your other usernames?

I gave you neg rep because of the username thing. That is why I responded the way I did because you said thanks. I am sorry if I read in a sarcastic tone, but c'mon, that is why you did it.
 

theo_victis

New member
In that regard your comment has left me disappointed in you.

I am sorry that it left you disappointed. I just dont see it being brilliant. It raises a tough question, but it does not force me to concede.
 

theo_victis

New member
Remember the Google incident from a few days ago?

If you are that egotistical and incessant on being right, then here you go:

I was wrong about the google incident.

ok i re read the google incident .. it was stupid ... would have been easily negated had both recognised the term turbo was using and its intended meaning.

Turbo was right, I was wrong in regards to that. My bad!
 

theo_victis

New member
It seems Turbo's arguement has a Biblical stand whereas your doesn't.

If by Biblical you mean that Turbo's beliefs are selected from particular passages from the Bible then I would also state that is position is Biblical. However, I use the Bible too, so by definition my position is Biblical.

The problem is not whether my view is more biblical than his and vice versa, it is an issue of theological interpretation. Those who support the DP in accordance with Turbo's reckoning are left with a dichotomous relationship between the OT law and the NT obsoleting of the OT Law in Christ. Also, Turbo is wanting in evidence for his Genesis 9 and Romans 13 interpretations, when alternate interpretations suggest that his view is not plausible.

So, if one agrees with Turbo they should really state that they have a particular fixation with his theology and biblical interpretation.
 

Free-Agent Smith

New member
theo_victis said:
If by Biblical you mean that Turbo's beliefs are selected from particular passages from the Bible then I would also state that is position is Biblical. However, I use the Bible too, so by definition my position is Biblical.

The problem is not whether my view is more biblical than his and vice versa, it is an issue of theological interpretation. Those who support the DP in accordance with Turbo's reckoning are left with a dichotomous relationship between the OT law and the NT obsoleting of the OT Law in Christ. Also, Turbo is wanting in evidence for his Genesis 9 and Romans 13 interpretations, when alternate interpretations suggest that his view is not plausible.

So, if one agrees with Turbo they should really state that they have a particular fixation with his theology and biblical interpretation.
Maybe, if you want to make some headway in the debate, you might show Turbo where exactly in the Bible that God recinded the death penalty, but that's up to you what you post.
 

theo_victis

New member
Maybe, if you want to make some headway in the debate, you might show Turbo where exactly in the Bible that God recinded the death penalty, but that's up to you what you post.

Sure.. Read Hebrews 8
 
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