Battle Royale XIV discussion thread
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
The final post is in for brandplucked. He won, no doubt - KJV
2 Timothy 3:15 KJV -
A child of any language can learn the scriptures and the gospel of their salvation. If I were to translate to a different specific language I would still use my KJV to do it.
Once you go KJV you don't go back !!!
My KJB says kill. But even if it said murder I would know that killing an unborn child is murder.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Anyone that knows Will Kinney knows he will not be at a loss for ready made material. I said as much here.
I think it a wee bit sour grapes to blame the man for tactical use of what he has been compiling for many years. He has posted much of the same here at TOL the past year or so, hence, any interlocutors debating him should have had plenty of heads up with what was to come.
The debate seems to have not settled the matter. Both sides raised some interesting points...if one is primarily interested in textual criticism. Both sides often took one another to task at the personal level hoping the genetic fallacy would win the day. Nevertheless, I am very thankful for all parties who took the time and effort to bring the discussion to TOL. Thank you all!
Perhaps someday, we will see a debate on this topic that takes a different approach, as in...
| "When we are summoned to church to worship and the ordained servant reads the passage to be exposited and exhorted, concluding with "This is the Word of the God. He who has ears to hear, let him hear" before the prayer asking to be guided by the Spirit during the sermon to come, what exactly does "This is the Word of God" mean? |
AMR
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
That's your answer? Guilt by association with Ruckman?
Can Will use that association fallacy too? (says he rubbing his hands with glee)
I had better label that a rhetorical question. You will need all the time you are allotted and then some to make that one stick. Even I can see through it and I'm no whiz.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
My answer to that is probably different than Mr. Kinney's. I believe that other peoples already have, in their own language, the Word of God inerrantly.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Well said. Agree 100%
heir
TOL Subscriber
Believers should have the same attitude toward the word of God as God Himself.
Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
brandplucked
New member
God's pure words
God's pure words
Amen. Thank you, brother. I totally agree.
God bless.
God's pure words
Amen. Thank you, brother. I totally agree.
God bless.
brandplucked
New member
Psal 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name"
Psal 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name"
Amen. And this is another of the multitude of verses many "bibles" have totally messed up.
Psalm 138:2 Magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name
Psalm 138:2 KJB - "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy TRUTH: for thou HAST MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME."
NIV 1982 edition - "...your faithfulness, for you have EXALTED ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD."
NIV 2011 edition - "...your faithfulness, for you have so EXALTED YOUR SOLEMN DECREE THAT SURPASSES YOUR FAME." !!! Say What?
New Living Translation - "...your faithfulness, for YOUR PROMISES ARE BACKED BY ALL THE HONOR OF YOUR NAME."
ESV 2011 - “I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for you have EXALTED ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD." Footnote - Or, you have exalted your word above all your name.”
NASB - "...Your truth, For you have MAGNIFIED YOUR WORD ACCORDING TO ALL YOUR NAME."
Holman - "... faithfulness. You have EXALTED YOUR NAME AND YOUR PROMISE ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE."
ISV - "for you have done great things TO CARRY OUT YOUR WORD CONSISTENT WITH YOUR NAME."
NET (Dan Wallace) - "...and faithfulness, for you have EXALTED YOUR PROMISE ABOVE THE ENTIRE SKY." Huh???
Judaica Press Complete Tanach - "for You magnified Your word OVER ALL YOUR NAMES."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
Catholic St. Joseph NAB - "...your truth; for you have MADE GREAT ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR PROMISES."
Catholic New Jerusalem bible - "...your constancy; YOUR PROMISES SURPASS YOUR FAME."
The New Engllish Bible 1970 - "for thou hast MADE THY PROMISE WIDE AS THE HEAVEN." ???
The Work of God’s Children Illustrated Bible 2011 - “for you have magnified YOUR HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL.” (completely omits “word”
The word "Truth" is fast disappearing from many modern bible versions. The word TRUTH is found 118 times in the Old Testament of the King James Bible. In the NASB the number is down to 92, 26 fewer times than the KJB and in the NIV the number is down to 41 times, or about one third the number of times as in the KJB. Maybe with two or more "modern, improved, up to date versions" we will finally be rid of that pesky word "truth". It seems the modern scholars are working on it.
The NIV and NASB have substituted "faithfulness" for truth, and the meaning is not the same. For example in Psalms 100:5 "For the LORD is good; his MERCY is everlasting; and his TRUTH endureth to all generations." The NASB has "lovingkindness" instead of "mercy" and "faithfulness" instead of truth.
Mercy is God not dealing with us as our sins and iniquities deserve. The NIV has "love" instead of mercy, and faithfullness instead of truth.
The ESV has "his STEADFAST LOVE" instead of "his MERCY" and "FAITHFULNESS" instead of "TRUTH".
In fact, if you look at the complete concordances, the words "mercy, merciful, and mercies" occur 288 times in the Old Testament of the KJB, while in the NASB only 51 times and the NIV only 85 times. They substitute either lovingkindness, or as in the NIV "love" which is a totally different word in Hebrew and in English.
Love and mercy are not at all the same things. Mercy implies that we deserve judgment, punishment and condemnation, but God has not done so with us. Love does not have this meaning at all. Something is definitely lost in the modern versions.
The phrase in Psalm 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name" is found in the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation and 1936 Hebrew- English versions, the Revised Version 1885, the New Berkeley Version 1969, the NKJV 1982, the American Standard Version 1901, Green's interlinear 2000, Webster's 1833, Darby 1870, Youngs 1898, Rotherham's 1902 Emphasized Bible, the Complete Jewish Bible, the 21st Century KJV 1994, the Orthodox Jewish Bible of 2011 - " I will worship toward Thy Heikhal Kodesh, and praise Shmecha (Thy Name) for Thy chesed and for Thy emes; for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above Kol Shimcha (all Thy Name; Yn 1:1, 14 OJBC)."
Psalm 138:2 “above all your name” is also the reading found in The Word of Yah 1993, Green’s Literal 2005, Context Group Version 2007, Bond Slave Version 2009, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, Online Interlinear 2010 (André de Mol), Conservative Bible 2011, and The Holy Bible, Modern English Version 2014 - “for You have exalted Your WORD ABOVE ALL YOUR NAME."
Foreign language Bibles that read like the KJB are the French Martin 1744 “car tu as magnifié ta parole au-dessus de toute ta renommée”, the Italian Diodati 1649 “tu hai magnificata la tua parola, sopra ogni tua fama.” the Portuguese Almeida Corriigida E Fiel and the A Biblia Sagrada em Portugues - "pois engrandeceste a tua palavra acima de todo o teu nome.", the Spanish Cipriano de Valera 1602 - "porque has magnificado tu palabra SOBRE TODO TU NOMBRE." and the 2004-2010 Spanish Reina Valera Gomez translation - "porque has magnificado tu palabra por sobre todo tu nombre." This is literally what it says.
The NASB however says: "For Thou hast magnified Thy word ACCORDING TO all Thy name".
The word is # 5921 - (al) - and it means "above" as in Gen. 1:7 "the waters were ABOVE the firmament", Gen.27:39 "the dew from heaven ABOVE.", Psalm 8:1 "hast set thy glory ABOVE the heavens", Psalm 95:3 "a great king ABOVE all gods", Psalm 97:9 "thou Lord, art high ABOVE all the earth", Psalm 99:2 "he is high ABOVE all the people", Psalm 137:6 "prefer not Jerusalem ABOVE my chief joy" etc.
The NIV 1984 edition, Holman, and the 2001 ESV read: "You have exalted above all things your name and your word."
Just by switching a few words around they have changed the meaning of the whole sentence. But at least they correctly translated "above" whereas the NASB did not.
However the new NIV of 2011 has utterly changed even what the old NIV said. The NIV 1984 edition said: "for you have exalted ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD."
But the new NIV 2011 now reads: "for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted YOUR SOLEMN DECREE THAT IT SURPASSES YOUR FAME." They changed "word" to "solemn decree" and "your name" to "your fame". This is a completely different meaning than the "old" NIV.
The RSV is interesting in that it reads: "Thou hast exalted above everything thing Thy name and Thy word." It reads basically like the NIV, ESV, but the RSV tells us in their footnotes: - 'Hebrew "exalted Thy word ABOVE all thy name."
The NRSV reads like the RSV, and its footnote tells us that the Hebrew literally says what is found in the KJB. A similar footnote is found in the ESV.
Daniel Wallace's goofy NET version renders the verse: "for you have exalted YOUR PROMISE ABOVE THE ENTIRE SKY." Then in his footnote he tells us: "The MT reads, “for you have made great over all your name your word.” If retained, this must mean that God's mighty intervention, in fulfillment of his word of promise, surpassed anything he had done prior to this. However, the statement is odd and several emendations have been proposed. Some read, “for you have exalted over everything your name and your word,” while others suggest, “for you have exalted over all the heavens your name and your word.” The translation assumes an emendation of “your name” to “your heavens” (a construction that appears in Pss 8:3 and 144:5). The point is that God has been faithful to his promise and the reliability of that promise is apparent to all." (end of Dan Wallace and company notes)
How foolish of men to change the true words of God. The result of "altering the text" by men like Daniel Wallace is that they "understand neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (1 Timothy 1:7).
There is no specific promise made in this Psalm that "surpassed anything he had done prior to this", as Mr. Wallace tells us. David is merely praising God for the Truth of His word in all circumstances. It is foolish presumption on the part of some self absorbed "scholar" to alter the text of the inerrant words of God merely because he doesn't understand the meaning of a certain passage.
The fault is not with the Text, but with the Fool who places his own understanding above what God has written. Men like Wallace clearly do not believe in an inerrant Bible in any language.
The King James Bible was the FIRST ENGLISH TRANSLATION TO GET IT RIGHT.
Wycliffe 1395 - "for thou hast magnefied thin hooli name aboue al thing."
Geneva Bible 1599 - "for thou hast magnified thy Name ABOVE ALL THINGS BY THY WORD."
Coverdale 1535 - "for thou hast magnified thy worde, acordynge vnto thy greate name."
English Standard Version 2001 - "for you have exalted above all things your name AND your word." FOOTNOTES: OR, YOU HAVE EXALTED YOUR WORD ABOVE ALL YOUR NAME." At least they got it right in their footnote!
"For thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE ALL THY NAME." This is what the Hebrew and the King James Bible read, but the new version editors have a much lower view of God's word, and Psalm 138:2 is one example of many where they have changed what God really said.
In what sense then can God magnify His word above His name? My understanding of this is that God Himself is subject to His spoken word and compelled by His very nature to fulfill what He has sworn to do. Let's look at some examples of this.
Hebrews 6:13-18 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multplying I will multiply thee...For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which is was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us."
We see God's spoken words promising a seed to Abraham and making a mighty nation from his loins. See Genesis 15:5; 21:13. Yet later in Israels history when they had grievously sinned and God threatened to destroy them, Moses pleads with God in Exodus 32:7-14 "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom THOU SWAREST BY THINE OWN SELF, and SAIDST unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever." Then we read "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Christ Himself was God manifest in the flesh and when it came time for Him to go to the cross and become sin for His people, His soul was exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death. He prayed that if it were possible this cup of suffering might pass from Him. Yet He knew the Scriptures promised that these things must be so and He yielded to the Father's will and word. "The scriptures must be fulfilled"; and "Thus it is written, and thus IT BEHOOVED Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." See Mark 14:49, Luke 24:46.
If God has sworn in His word to do something, then He is subject to this oath and bound by His word to fulfill it, no matter what the cost to Himself nor to His Son, and without regard to the sins and unfaithfulness of His people.
Return to Articles - http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbarticles.htm
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
Psal 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name"
Amen. And this is another of the multitude of verses many "bibles" have totally messed up.
Psalm 138:2 Magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name
Psalm 138:2 KJB - "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy TRUTH: for thou HAST MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME."
NIV 1982 edition - "...your faithfulness, for you have EXALTED ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD."
NIV 2011 edition - "...your faithfulness, for you have so EXALTED YOUR SOLEMN DECREE THAT SURPASSES YOUR FAME." !!! Say What?
New Living Translation - "...your faithfulness, for YOUR PROMISES ARE BACKED BY ALL THE HONOR OF YOUR NAME."
ESV 2011 - “I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for you have EXALTED ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD." Footnote - Or, you have exalted your word above all your name.”
NASB - "...Your truth, For you have MAGNIFIED YOUR WORD ACCORDING TO ALL YOUR NAME."
Holman - "... faithfulness. You have EXALTED YOUR NAME AND YOUR PROMISE ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE."
ISV - "for you have done great things TO CARRY OUT YOUR WORD CONSISTENT WITH YOUR NAME."
NET (Dan Wallace) - "...and faithfulness, for you have EXALTED YOUR PROMISE ABOVE THE ENTIRE SKY." Huh???
Judaica Press Complete Tanach - "for You magnified Your word OVER ALL YOUR NAMES."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
Catholic St. Joseph NAB - "...your truth; for you have MADE GREAT ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR PROMISES."
Catholic New Jerusalem bible - "...your constancy; YOUR PROMISES SURPASS YOUR FAME."
The New Engllish Bible 1970 - "for thou hast MADE THY PROMISE WIDE AS THE HEAVEN." ???
The Work of God’s Children Illustrated Bible 2011 - “for you have magnified YOUR HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL.” (completely omits “word”
The word "Truth" is fast disappearing from many modern bible versions. The word TRUTH is found 118 times in the Old Testament of the King James Bible. In the NASB the number is down to 92, 26 fewer times than the KJB and in the NIV the number is down to 41 times, or about one third the number of times as in the KJB. Maybe with two or more "modern, improved, up to date versions" we will finally be rid of that pesky word "truth". It seems the modern scholars are working on it.
The NIV and NASB have substituted "faithfulness" for truth, and the meaning is not the same. For example in Psalms 100:5 "For the LORD is good; his MERCY is everlasting; and his TRUTH endureth to all generations." The NASB has "lovingkindness" instead of "mercy" and "faithfulness" instead of truth.
Mercy is God not dealing with us as our sins and iniquities deserve. The NIV has "love" instead of mercy, and faithfullness instead of truth.
The ESV has "his STEADFAST LOVE" instead of "his MERCY" and "FAITHFULNESS" instead of "TRUTH".
In fact, if you look at the complete concordances, the words "mercy, merciful, and mercies" occur 288 times in the Old Testament of the KJB, while in the NASB only 51 times and the NIV only 85 times. They substitute either lovingkindness, or as in the NIV "love" which is a totally different word in Hebrew and in English.
Love and mercy are not at all the same things. Mercy implies that we deserve judgment, punishment and condemnation, but God has not done so with us. Love does not have this meaning at all. Something is definitely lost in the modern versions.
The phrase in Psalm 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name" is found in the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation and 1936 Hebrew- English versions, the Revised Version 1885, the New Berkeley Version 1969, the NKJV 1982, the American Standard Version 1901, Green's interlinear 2000, Webster's 1833, Darby 1870, Youngs 1898, Rotherham's 1902 Emphasized Bible, the Complete Jewish Bible, the 21st Century KJV 1994, the Orthodox Jewish Bible of 2011 - " I will worship toward Thy Heikhal Kodesh, and praise Shmecha (Thy Name) for Thy chesed and for Thy emes; for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above Kol Shimcha (all Thy Name; Yn 1:1, 14 OJBC)."
Psalm 138:2 “above all your name” is also the reading found in The Word of Yah 1993, Green’s Literal 2005, Context Group Version 2007, Bond Slave Version 2009, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, Online Interlinear 2010 (André de Mol), Conservative Bible 2011, and The Holy Bible, Modern English Version 2014 - “for You have exalted Your WORD ABOVE ALL YOUR NAME."
Foreign language Bibles that read like the KJB are the French Martin 1744 “car tu as magnifié ta parole au-dessus de toute ta renommée”, the Italian Diodati 1649 “tu hai magnificata la tua parola, sopra ogni tua fama.” the Portuguese Almeida Corriigida E Fiel and the A Biblia Sagrada em Portugues - "pois engrandeceste a tua palavra acima de todo o teu nome.", the Spanish Cipriano de Valera 1602 - "porque has magnificado tu palabra SOBRE TODO TU NOMBRE." and the 2004-2010 Spanish Reina Valera Gomez translation - "porque has magnificado tu palabra por sobre todo tu nombre." This is literally what it says.
The NASB however says: "For Thou hast magnified Thy word ACCORDING TO all Thy name".
The word is # 5921 - (al) - and it means "above" as in Gen. 1:7 "the waters were ABOVE the firmament", Gen.27:39 "the dew from heaven ABOVE.", Psalm 8:1 "hast set thy glory ABOVE the heavens", Psalm 95:3 "a great king ABOVE all gods", Psalm 97:9 "thou Lord, art high ABOVE all the earth", Psalm 99:2 "he is high ABOVE all the people", Psalm 137:6 "prefer not Jerusalem ABOVE my chief joy" etc.
The NIV 1984 edition, Holman, and the 2001 ESV read: "You have exalted above all things your name and your word."
Just by switching a few words around they have changed the meaning of the whole sentence. But at least they correctly translated "above" whereas the NASB did not.
However the new NIV of 2011 has utterly changed even what the old NIV said. The NIV 1984 edition said: "for you have exalted ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD."
But the new NIV 2011 now reads: "for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted YOUR SOLEMN DECREE THAT IT SURPASSES YOUR FAME." They changed "word" to "solemn decree" and "your name" to "your fame". This is a completely different meaning than the "old" NIV.
The RSV is interesting in that it reads: "Thou hast exalted above everything thing Thy name and Thy word." It reads basically like the NIV, ESV, but the RSV tells us in their footnotes: - 'Hebrew "exalted Thy word ABOVE all thy name."
The NRSV reads like the RSV, and its footnote tells us that the Hebrew literally says what is found in the KJB. A similar footnote is found in the ESV.
Daniel Wallace's goofy NET version renders the verse: "for you have exalted YOUR PROMISE ABOVE THE ENTIRE SKY." Then in his footnote he tells us: "The MT reads, “for you have made great over all your name your word.” If retained, this must mean that God's mighty intervention, in fulfillment of his word of promise, surpassed anything he had done prior to this. However, the statement is odd and several emendations have been proposed. Some read, “for you have exalted over everything your name and your word,” while others suggest, “for you have exalted over all the heavens your name and your word.” The translation assumes an emendation of “your name” to “your heavens” (a construction that appears in Pss 8:3 and 144:5). The point is that God has been faithful to his promise and the reliability of that promise is apparent to all." (end of Dan Wallace and company notes)
How foolish of men to change the true words of God. The result of "altering the text" by men like Daniel Wallace is that they "understand neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (1 Timothy 1:7).
There is no specific promise made in this Psalm that "surpassed anything he had done prior to this", as Mr. Wallace tells us. David is merely praising God for the Truth of His word in all circumstances. It is foolish presumption on the part of some self absorbed "scholar" to alter the text of the inerrant words of God merely because he doesn't understand the meaning of a certain passage.
The fault is not with the Text, but with the Fool who places his own understanding above what God has written. Men like Wallace clearly do not believe in an inerrant Bible in any language.
The King James Bible was the FIRST ENGLISH TRANSLATION TO GET IT RIGHT.
Wycliffe 1395 - "for thou hast magnefied thin hooli name aboue al thing."
Geneva Bible 1599 - "for thou hast magnified thy Name ABOVE ALL THINGS BY THY WORD."
Coverdale 1535 - "for thou hast magnified thy worde, acordynge vnto thy greate name."
English Standard Version 2001 - "for you have exalted above all things your name AND your word." FOOTNOTES: OR, YOU HAVE EXALTED YOUR WORD ABOVE ALL YOUR NAME." At least they got it right in their footnote!
"For thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE ALL THY NAME." This is what the Hebrew and the King James Bible read, but the new version editors have a much lower view of God's word, and Psalm 138:2 is one example of many where they have changed what God really said.
In what sense then can God magnify His word above His name? My understanding of this is that God Himself is subject to His spoken word and compelled by His very nature to fulfill what He has sworn to do. Let's look at some examples of this.
Hebrews 6:13-18 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multplying I will multiply thee...For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which is was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us."
We see God's spoken words promising a seed to Abraham and making a mighty nation from his loins. See Genesis 15:5; 21:13. Yet later in Israels history when they had grievously sinned and God threatened to destroy them, Moses pleads with God in Exodus 32:7-14 "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom THOU SWAREST BY THINE OWN SELF, and SAIDST unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever." Then we read "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Christ Himself was God manifest in the flesh and when it came time for Him to go to the cross and become sin for His people, His soul was exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death. He prayed that if it were possible this cup of suffering might pass from Him. Yet He knew the Scriptures promised that these things must be so and He yielded to the Father's will and word. "The scriptures must be fulfilled"; and "Thus it is written, and thus IT BEHOOVED Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." See Mark 14:49, Luke 24:46.
If God has sworn in His word to do something, then He is subject to this oath and bound by His word to fulfill it, no matter what the cost to Himself nor to His Son, and without regard to the sins and unfaithfulness of His people.
Return to Articles - http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbarticles.htm
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
The Message- "Most holy is your name, most holy is your Word."
Catholic Douay Rheims - "for thou hast magnified THY HOLY NAME ABOVE ALL."
Lamsa's translation of the Syriac - "for thou hast magnified thy word above EVERY name."
Thanks for clarifying your central argument for the KJVO position: a step of faith.
Brother Vinny
Active member
From the very start of the debate, you seemed willing to distinguish between the Word (Jesus) of God versus the words (Bible) of God. How is it then not possible that the word in Psalm 138:2 is talking about Christ?
For that matter, how does one get from "word of God" to "Bible"?
How do you know this? If no other tenxt in English or any other language, including texts in the original languages, has God's inerrant words, how do you know the KJB got it right?
Romans is not annotated in this Bishops' Bible. But FWIW "Achaia" was what the 1602 Bishops' Bible's translators chose in that translation.
Patrick, I'm still waiting for you to answer my previous question. If one Bible version says "faith" and one Bible version says "hope", then how do you Patrick know which one is right?
Since you think Will Kinney won the debate, please tell me the single best argument you think he made that the King James Version is the only inspired scripture on earth today?
George Affleck, you have implied that God supernaturally intervened with Erasmus' compiling of the Textus Receptus. I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Is this acucrate?
Brother Vinny
Active member
He did answer this. It was the answer that took the least intellectual rigor, but he answered it: he said this would not be a dilemma for him, implying he would side with the KJV simply because it is de facto inerrant.
Of course, if I am reading this tautology into G.A./Patrick's response, I request correction.
Hi ranecks, there's nothing there. Sorry. The translator's manuscript 98 does mark that at this verse they were only going to revise the text that they were working from (note: not really the T.R., they were comparing to that, and of course often letting that rule; but they were working of of the 1602 BB) in two places. Change "which" to "who" and "in" to "unto".
What's your interest in Achaia at this verse, or does that question open a Pandora's box?
Will Kinney, I'd like to know why you failed to (yet again) answer our questions that were numbered (as stated in the debate rules).
You did not answer BWQ24. (You quoted it, but did not answer.)
You did not answer BWQ25. (You didn't even quote it.)
You did not answer BWQ26. (You didn't even quote it.)
You did not answer BWQ27. (You didn't even quote it.)
Is there a reason you did not respond to the evidence we demonstrated helping you read the 400-year-old secretary hand from the annotation at Hosea 6:5?
Is there a reason you did not respond to the mistakes made by the translators which come from Manuscript 98? Have you ever heard of Manuscript 98?
Is there a reason you did not respond to the 6 examples we gave of mistranslations in the KJV? You gave links to text you've written to two of them and did not even attempt to respond to the other four. You specifically asked me for these in the Grandstands here and I put them in there because you asked. Why would you not respond?
You did not answer BWQ24. (You quoted it, but did not answer.)
You did not answer BWQ25. (You didn't even quote it.)
You did not answer BWQ26. (You didn't even quote it.)
You did not answer BWQ27. (You didn't even quote it.)
Is there a reason you did not respond to the evidence we demonstrated helping you read the 400-year-old secretary hand from the annotation at Hosea 6:5?
Is there a reason you did not respond to the mistakes made by the translators which come from Manuscript 98? Have you ever heard of Manuscript 98?
Is there a reason you did not respond to the 6 examples we gave of mistranslations in the KJV? You gave links to text you've written to two of them and did not even attempt to respond to the other four. You specifically asked me for these in the Grandstands here and I put them in there because you asked. Why would you not respond?
From WK:
"Saul was one year old when he became king. And he reigned two years over Israel."
I don't see what is hard about this. Those are the literally translated words of the Hebrew text and they make perfect sense. There is no reason to translate in any other way.
You don't agree? Of course you don't, because the Hebrew text itself makes no sense! But it is not the translator's job to rewrite a text that is clear. Sure, it makes no sense, but the words themselves are clear and need no alteration, as the KJB has altered it and most other translations have. This is where my translation principle and hermeneutical principle I detailed in my 1-1 with Lon reigns supreme. It is utterly sensible and completely indisputable.
The text is clear and if it makes no sense then there is no harm in adding a note for the reader: 'The available manuscripts of the Hebrew text seem to be corrupt in some respect here and no one really knows what it should have read. Some Bibles omit the verse completely, others make guesses at what it should have said. We have no other evidence and so we have just translated what is there.'
Putting a note like this in the margin of a Bible is a great deal more honest than just guessing at what it should have said and putting that guess in the translation without comment. The reader deserves to know what is there in the original manuscript and if it is clearly non-sensical, then the reader deserves to be told that. So nul points to the KJB here and nul points to most other translations as well.
The KJB is clearly incorrect here. So are most of the other translations. The Hebrew text is clear:
"Saul was one year old when he became king. And he reigned two years over Israel."
I don't see what is hard about this. Those are the literally translated words of the Hebrew text and they make perfect sense. There is no reason to translate in any other way.
You don't agree? Of course you don't, because the Hebrew text itself makes no sense! But it is not the translator's job to rewrite a text that is clear. Sure, it makes no sense, but the words themselves are clear and need no alteration, as the KJB has altered it and most other translations have. This is where my translation principle and hermeneutical principle I detailed in my 1-1 with Lon reigns supreme. It is utterly sensible and completely indisputable.
The text is clear and if it makes no sense then there is no harm in adding a note for the reader: 'The available manuscripts of the Hebrew text seem to be corrupt in some respect here and no one really knows what it should have read. Some Bibles omit the verse completely, others make guesses at what it should have said. We have no other evidence and so we have just translated what is there.'
Putting a note like this in the margin of a Bible is a great deal more honest than just guessing at what it should have said and putting that guess in the translation without comment. The reader deserves to know what is there in the original manuscript and if it is clearly non-sensical, then the reader deserves to be told that. So nul points to the KJB here and nul points to most other translations as well.